I like this idea! I'd love to try out some DAs before purchasing the "right one" for me!
The GG polisher is as good as the 3401?
- Thread starter kbohip
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I like this idea! I'd love to try out some DAs before purchasing the "right one" for me!
- Thread starter
- #122
I come back after almost 2 months and this thread I started is still at the top of the page?! Lol, I didn't expect to see that. Anyway I did end up buying a Flex 3401. The machine itself is a true pleasure to use. There is very little vibration (and I was using a Cyclo before this which had hardly any vibration). The correction ability? Hmmm, the jury is still out on this one. It seems to do ok with finer scratches and swirl marks but anything heavy and I have to pull out the big Dewalt rotary and the wool pad. Maybe the car's I'm working on are in exceptionally bad shape?
Case in point is a '01 Lexus LS430 I just did. The roof had HORRIBLE water spots. I tried using the Flex with Meg 105 and an orange pad and it did nothing at all. It ended up taking the rotary with a wool pad and Meg 105 about 6 passes to get most of the marks out. Thank God for thick Lexus paint! If those spots were on my Nissan I'd have never had enough clearcoat to be able to remove them before I hit the paint below. The other thing I noticed is Megs 105 doesn't work well with RO's. At least this was my experience. Even using the Flex at speed 6 and really working the 105 in for a long time, removing it was a huge chore. Whereas the rotary could work the 105 down to almost nothing in no time.
I also used the Flex on the sides of the Lexus and using Megs 205. It couldn't take out a lot of the scratches. I really would like to try the Flex with a wool pad and Megs 105 to see if there's an improvement in the ease of polish removal. If not I need to find a better heavy cut polish to use with the Flex as the 105/Flex/orange pad combo is way too much of a chore.
The Flex does really shine in less severe situations. It worked brilliantly on my Maxima taking out every scratch it came across with relative ease. My finish was in much better shape than the Lexus though so I was expecting it to do a great job there. It's funny to see some people here saying the Flex gets away from them or is hard to handle. After using the Dewalt 849, the Flex seems like a child's toy to me.:buffing: I guess it's all in what you get used to. Regardless of which RO here is the best. The Dewalt rotary is the best $75 I've spent all year. I LOVE what this thing can do to a finish!
So after all this I'll say once again that the jury is still out for me regarding the Flex's cutting abilities. I want to try a wool pad and a heavy cut polish that's designed to be used with RO's before giving the FLex the thumbs up or down in this regard. Below are some before and after pics after using the rotary/wool pad/Meg 105 and Flex/white pad/Meg 205 following the rotary. Keep in mind that these photos do not do justice to how bad this car's finish looked before I started. The roof was a nightmare of craters and the sides almost approached wet sanded.
Roof before:
Roof after:
Side before:
Side after:
Case in point is a '01 Lexus LS430 I just did. The roof had HORRIBLE water spots. I tried using the Flex with Meg 105 and an orange pad and it did nothing at all. It ended up taking the rotary with a wool pad and Meg 105 about 6 passes to get most of the marks out. Thank God for thick Lexus paint! If those spots were on my Nissan I'd have never had enough clearcoat to be able to remove them before I hit the paint below. The other thing I noticed is Megs 105 doesn't work well with RO's. At least this was my experience. Even using the Flex at speed 6 and really working the 105 in for a long time, removing it was a huge chore. Whereas the rotary could work the 105 down to almost nothing in no time.
I also used the Flex on the sides of the Lexus and using Megs 205. It couldn't take out a lot of the scratches. I really would like to try the Flex with a wool pad and Megs 105 to see if there's an improvement in the ease of polish removal. If not I need to find a better heavy cut polish to use with the Flex as the 105/Flex/orange pad combo is way too much of a chore.
The Flex does really shine in less severe situations. It worked brilliantly on my Maxima taking out every scratch it came across with relative ease. My finish was in much better shape than the Lexus though so I was expecting it to do a great job there. It's funny to see some people here saying the Flex gets away from them or is hard to handle. After using the Dewalt 849, the Flex seems like a child's toy to me.:buffing: I guess it's all in what you get used to. Regardless of which RO here is the best. The Dewalt rotary is the best $75 I've spent all year. I LOVE what this thing can do to a finish!
So after all this I'll say once again that the jury is still out for me regarding the Flex's cutting abilities. I want to try a wool pad and a heavy cut polish that's designed to be used with RO's before giving the FLex the thumbs up or down in this regard. Below are some before and after pics after using the rotary/wool pad/Meg 105 and Flex/white pad/Meg 205 following the rotary. Keep in mind that these photos do not do justice to how bad this car's finish looked before I started. The roof was a nightmare of craters and the sides almost approached wet sanded.
Roof before:
Roof after:
Side before:
Side after:
PAR Detailing
New member
- Oct 19, 2009
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First let me say I am a huge Flex fan. I have one and I absolutely love it. I believe it can correct 85-90% of what a rotary can when used properly. I wont comment on whether it is better than the GG because I have never used a GG, but I have never once regretted my flex purchase.
Now to address the quote. I have tried a wool pad on mine and I did Not like it. It doesnt work very well. I bought the Surbuf pads, similar concept as wool but different, and they work AMAZING on the flex. You will get some great correction ability out of them and they work with the machine very well. In addition to that they require very little product to correct paint. I use significantly less product with them than with wool. I highly reccomend them to anyone with a DA who wants more correction ability than an orange pad. I havent done a side by side comparisson with the surbuf and any other pads or comparison with a rotary yet but I will when I find some extra time and I will do a write up on it.
All the best,
Jon
Many people have posted very positive experiences doing heavy correction work with Flex, including 1500 grit wet sanding marks. (BTW, when comparing abilities and making conclusions let's do that apples to apples, not machine X with orange pad to machine Y with wool pad).
Many people use 105 just fine with ROs.
Could you please elaborate on this as it leaves me unsure what you mean with it? On one side "removing was a huge chore" sounds weird, like a gumming up issue, and "rotary could work down 105 to almost nothing" is not description usually heard with non-diminishing abrasives.
M105 _is_ a heavy cut polish that _is_ DA polisher approved.
Can you please share with us what exactly you did not like about that combo / why it did not work very well for you?
P.S. Surbuf pads on Flex? Have you tried that on curved panels?
Mike Phillips
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BimmerFerret
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- Mar 25, 2010
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My goodness...What a thread!
I'm reading everyone's reviews and opinions and what I do know is this:
The Flex is a great DA Polisher/Buffer, costs more, but has less vibrations, and doesn't slow down.
The GG is a great DA Polisher/Buffer, but costs a lot less.
What my struggle is this: I'm starting a part-time business detailing cars. I'm working on increasing my services and currently I do offer clay bar / wax jobs. These jobs are taking entirely too long. It takes me 8 hours to do a car. I know part of this is experience, but hand waxing / hand buffing off takes a lot of time as well.
I need a buffer that can do multiple jobs without experiencing heavy weardown. The GG kit on Autogeek.com is VERY tempting with 5 pads and cleaners as well as MF towels.
I've read this entire thread, I've read Mike's comparison of the polishers (very good by the way, thanks Mike!), and I've seen the prices. I'm cashflowing this business 100%, so every dollar counts. My gut says run with the GG because of the value-for-dollar right now, but then my mind says "well the Flex would be a better long-term solution."
So a summary for those who need cliffs:
1.) Starting a part-time business, hopefully to go full-time in a couple of years.
2.) Need a buffer/polisher to speed up clay/wax jobs (I am not offering swirl removal yet!!)
3.) Torn and agonizing over the purchases.
4.) Autogeek is definitely offering the best package deals and I'm stuck between: Griot's Garage Random Orbital Polisher & Pad Kit, Griot's Garage Random Orbital Machine, orbital polishing kit and FLEX XC3401 VRG Orbital Polisher Kit with Free FLEX Polisher Bag, FLEX Dual Action Polisher and storage bag, FLEX bag kit for starting out.
Help!!!
John
PS: I know it is only $140, but I really need some other high end products such as wheel wax, exhaust tip polish, etc. to round out my product line for starting out.
I'm reading everyone's reviews and opinions and what I do know is this:
The Flex is a great DA Polisher/Buffer, costs more, but has less vibrations, and doesn't slow down.
The GG is a great DA Polisher/Buffer, but costs a lot less.
What my struggle is this: I'm starting a part-time business detailing cars. I'm working on increasing my services and currently I do offer clay bar / wax jobs. These jobs are taking entirely too long. It takes me 8 hours to do a car. I know part of this is experience, but hand waxing / hand buffing off takes a lot of time as well.
I need a buffer that can do multiple jobs without experiencing heavy weardown. The GG kit on Autogeek.com is VERY tempting with 5 pads and cleaners as well as MF towels.
I've read this entire thread, I've read Mike's comparison of the polishers (very good by the way, thanks Mike!), and I've seen the prices. I'm cashflowing this business 100%, so every dollar counts. My gut says run with the GG because of the value-for-dollar right now, but then my mind says "well the Flex would be a better long-term solution."
So a summary for those who need cliffs:
1.) Starting a part-time business, hopefully to go full-time in a couple of years.
2.) Need a buffer/polisher to speed up clay/wax jobs (I am not offering swirl removal yet!!)
3.) Torn and agonizing over the purchases.
4.) Autogeek is definitely offering the best package deals and I'm stuck between: Griot's Garage Random Orbital Polisher & Pad Kit, Griot's Garage Random Orbital Machine, orbital polishing kit and FLEX XC3401 VRG Orbital Polisher Kit with Free FLEX Polisher Bag, FLEX Dual Action Polisher and storage bag, FLEX bag kit for starting out.
Help!!!
John
PS: I know it is only $140, but I really need some other high end products such as wheel wax, exhaust tip polish, etc. to round out my product line for starting out.
This decision is easy: Get a GG. Later as you expand add Flex to it and have both. GG is more versatile, Flex is more specialized.
O.C.Detailing
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- Jul 24, 2009
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John, also remember that the flex only has a 1 year warranty where the Griot's has a lifetime replacement warranty. Several of us GG owners have had to use the warranty for different reasons, even something that had nothing to do with a machine defect and the machines were replaced pretty much without hassle for most and just a little distress for one person that I know of, but both Griot's AND AG came through in the end for the gentleman.
If you can swing the cost, you can go with the Flex, but after that first year, you're on your own if it breaks and you'll have to buy a new one.
Good luck with whichever polisher you choose though.
Adam
If you can swing the cost, you can go with the Flex, but after that first year, you're on your own if it breaks and you'll have to buy a new one.
Good luck with whichever polisher you choose though.
Adam
5.4 Shelby
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- Feb 23, 2010
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John K,
If you are only going to apply wax with it, then it doesn't need to be anything fancy. You dont need power to apply wax. The power is for paint correction/swirl removal. You could use one of those ?Auto Parts "Buffers" for that.
Machine claying does not work well IME.
With that said, once you see how easy it is to remove swirls with the DA, you will begin to offer that as a service.
If you are only going to apply wax with it, then it doesn't need to be anything fancy. You dont need power to apply wax. The power is for paint correction/swirl removal. You could use one of those ?Auto Parts "Buffers" for that.
Machine claying does not work well IME.
With that said, once you see how easy it is to remove swirls with the DA, you will begin to offer that as a service.
Dubbin1
Active member
- May 28, 2009
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That tells me something.
Pony up the money now and start with the better more powerful Flex (sorry Adam but that's my take on it).
Any of the DAs AG offers will be fine starting out. I've logged dozens of corrections on my Flex and dozens on dozens more with my original model PC7424 without an issue. They're all fine machines.
What you need to look at is versatility. I've got all the bases covered between my Makita, Flex, and 7424. Just starting out without a smaller backing plate option (sans Edge system, which I've never really heard much about tbh) I'd go with the Griots, 7424XP, or G110v2.
That's just my opinion though. I tend to look at things from a more practical standpoint. Some people do just fine maneuvering 6.5" pads around really tight areas. I reach for 4" pads when that time comes.
Understand that opinions are opinions. Ignore the rhetoric and choose what makes the most sense to you from a practical standpoint.
PS:
Klasse AIO is a fantastic product that you'll find many, many uses for, including wheels. I also highly recommend Nevr Dull or Optimum polish for metalwork.
BimmerFerret
New member
- Mar 25, 2010
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Thanks for the comments everyone. I think I will go with the GG after everyone's input. Right now, something really is better than nothing. I do plan on adding more advanced buffers as time goes on though!
Shelby, I do have a 10" AZ buffer. I used it on my car ONE time. I never want to use that thing again. I hated it! It felt odd, I didn't like how it worked, and the covers felt cheap.
Shelby, I do have a 10" AZ buffer. I used it on my car ONE time. I never want to use that thing again. I hated it! It felt odd, I didn't like how it worked, and the covers felt cheap.
O.C.Detailing
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- Jul 24, 2009
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Heh it's not more powerful, but like I've said in the past, I'd put my Griot's against a Flex anyday if someone wanted a real comparison of the benefits and limitations of both. The flex, in hand and on paper, has less power than the Griot's.
5.4 Shelby
New member
- Feb 23, 2010
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I wouldnt recommend one of those. I was just saying you dont need a powerful polisher to apply and remove wax.
But, I do think you will see how easy it is to make paint look great with a DA. Therefore I would buy a powerful machine (any of the DAs) and learn to use it. IT will take your results to a new level. And, it is really fun and rewarding to do :buffing:.
Honestly, I would prob buy the PC as a great starter DA. That is what I started with years ago. The only reason I bought the GG was to do it more efficiently. The power of the GG can be a little too much at times. There are still situations where I grab the PC instead.
If, down the road, you decide you need more power, then buy the Flex, GG or whatever the darling of the detailing world is at that time. You could use the PC for 4 inch pads and the new one for larger pads.
DARK HORSE
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- Sep 14, 2009
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When looking at power one must consider input power and output power. Input power is calculated by I x V = P (current X volatage= power);
In the case of the Flex: Ip=7.5Ax120V= 900W
In the case of the GG: Ip=7.0Ax 120V = 840W. However input power really is of no intrest as long as the rated circuit can handle the load. What we are all concerned with is output power (the power at the business end of the tool). This becomes much more difficult to calculate properly. Many things come into play when calculating output power (ie internal resistance, internal power disapation (heat loss), power delivery efficiency, weight, etc). I see that flex has rated the power at 900 watts of input power and 590 Watts of Output power, which is what I would consider a normal power loss from input power (Ip) to output power (Op) and Griots has shown their power rating to be 850 watts of input power, could not find an output power rating for them (which is what truly should be refered to when discussing power). Comparing Ip to Op is like comparing apples and oranges. Based on the fact that the flex has a 7.5A motor and the GG has a 7A motor, I would guess that the Flex actually will have slightly more Op (output power). However when discussing power tools, it really is more about torque under load, then it is about an electrical power rating, but thats a whole nother can of worms. (Not trying to argue or add fuel to the fire, as I really don't care about what machine is blah,blah,blah, I just wanted to makes sure people were looking at the power ratings in the correct way and not confusing or comparing Ip to Op) and with such an equal current rating which ever one does have more electrical power disapation, it will be ever so slight)...
Dubbin1
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- May 28, 2009
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I have used both and in hand IMO the Flex is stronger. I don't know what paper you're reading but everything I have seen shows the Flex with more power. I'm not saying the GG is a bad tool in any way, its a great tool.
I just can understand why you get all worked up when someone has a different opinion then you when it comes to the two tools. If you feel the GG is better for you then use it but don't go knocking other people when they have their own opinion that doesn't match yours
Now, I still plan on buying a GG to replace my old PC but the Flex will still be my go to polisher.
Could you please elaborate what are you basing "in hand" part on?
Torque under load is where proverbial tire hits the road. It is easy to get lost in "bench racing" discussions but I don't see why when approximate answer is right in front of us. All it would take is to put brand new 6.5" Surbuff pad on one, put a tool on top of bare metal, press until pressure is say 15l/20/25lbs (having a way to make sure pressure is accurate, hand "gauges" don't count), turn on engine at full speed and maintain pressure for a minute, shut off, measure temperature of metal, let it cool off back to room temperature, repeat process with other tool and another brand new pad, and whichever one raised temperature most is one that most likely generated most torque under load and no need for further "bench racing".
O.C.Detailing
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- Jul 24, 2009
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I've used both machines...the Flex is sluggish in oscillation and rotational speeds compared to my Griot's. Output power on the Griots will be higher than the Flex due to the fact that there is MUCH less mechanical resistance in the spindle assembly. Friction drives the Flex's outpower way down. Sorry guys. I'll never concede. The flex is a great machine, but there's no way it's better than the Griot's.
I don't get heated when people have opinions different than me. I just don't agree that people are trying to justify the cost of the flex by falsely claiming that it's better than a machine less than half of it's cost when I've had months of side by side comparison work to base my FACTS on. I'm sorry my machine was used to remove sanding marks that the flexcouldnt using the same pad and product combo and I'm sorry that I always saw fewer defects in the side polished by the Griot's, but that's the truth over months of working directly beside the flex with my Griot's. I still want a flex because I think it's great for 1-step polishing, but for hardcore correction, I'll stick with my Griot's.
I'll leave it at that now all. I've beat these points to death but people want to stick to their guns in thinking the flex is the more powerful of the two. I'd put my Griot's against anyone with a flex in a side-by-side comparison to prove my points. Anyway, either way is win-win, but the flex is NOT the better of the two machines IME.
I don't get heated when people have opinions different than me. I just don't agree that people are trying to justify the cost of the flex by falsely claiming that it's better than a machine less than half of it's cost when I've had months of side by side comparison work to base my FACTS on. I'm sorry my machine was used to remove sanding marks that the flexcouldnt using the same pad and product combo and I'm sorry that I always saw fewer defects in the side polished by the Griot's, but that's the truth over months of working directly beside the flex with my Griot's. I still want a flex because I think it's great for 1-step polishing, but for hardcore correction, I'll stick with my Griot's.
I'll leave it at that now all. I've beat these points to death but people want to stick to their guns in thinking the flex is the more powerful of the two. I'd put my Griot's against anyone with a flex in a side-by-side comparison to prove my points. Anyway, either way is win-win, but the flex is NOT the better of the two machines IME.