The Rotary 101

ELGreco said:
It's obvious the person using the rotary in this photo had no idea how to use a rotary


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I won't argue that, but the point you're failing to understand is that the rotary and twisted wool leaves significantly deeper defects in the paint than a long throw DA with a MF pad will, often requiring an additional step to properly refine the paint. That additional step often negates any time saved in the initial cutting step with a rotary.
 
You're right Mike stop for I get out of character but I will end this with... can you buff with a rotary 1 handed? And if you can I must meet your fitness trainer


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ELGreco said:
You're right Mike stop for I get out of character but I will end this with... can you buff with a rotary 1 handed? And if you can I must meet your fitness trainer


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I’m alittle confused. You started this thread being all Pro Rotary and it seems you ending it Pro DA? Personally I use all types as it keeps things from becoming monotonous. I have a fetish for powertools.
 
Ronin47 said:
I’m alittle confused. You started this thread being all Pro Rotary and it seems you ending it Pro DA? Personally I use all types as it keeps things from becoming monotonous. I have a fetish for powertools.
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Alright now ur just changing ur statement, when it comes to correction aka leveling paint I'm 100% rotary 247 365 but you made the claim that the rotary was smoother then a da an said I had little experience with a 21, anyone that has used a rotary and a DA knows a DA is smoothest thing out... so please don't tell me I don't have experience with a 21 when I use one every day for finishes and soft paint :)


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One of things I wonder over is it so difficault to finish with a rotary as they says? Can you make it hologram free or is it a chance to create holograms every time. Or can you with proper technique of arm movement and speed on the rotary don't inflict holograms to the paint? Sure it is more variables into it.
I've no experience with a rotary. But I will learn to use one in the future with a good technique.
 
Well, for being so "pro rotary", I see a BOSS 15mm DA, BOSS 21mm DA and Flex 3401. The only rotary I see is an iBrid, cheap drill and a PE8 which is a 3" max rotary. You should update your avatar with you using a rotary.
 
ELGreco said:
Lately I have been browsing around on YouTube and forums and viewing videos and write ups and I see all theses "Professional Detailers" spending countless hours/days correcting paint (leveling paint) on vehicles using DA Polishers and running through countless pads and using this and that and I sit here and wonder how do theses guys make money? To me a rotary is king! Nothing is going to level Paint faster then a rotary and I would love anyone to argue that with me... so my question is if theses guys are professionals why not just pick up a rotary and turn your 50 hour paint correction into a 4 hour in and out just as good maybe not for your write up or your video or Instagram or whatever but at the end of the day it should come down to being a profitable in and out on to the next detailer... I think this new generation is scared of the rotary and it's just hurting theses guys pockets... we need to bring the rotary back! Yes the da is good for finishing but we are not talking about finishing we are talking about leveling paint (correction) and then finishing with a da... don't let all the hype/internet destroy the most profitable/needed tool in the industry!!


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Boy, talk about a rollercoaster ride!

The OP does make a very good point in his initial post about the industry making people afraid of the rotary. The rotary polisher is an incredibly effective tool and is completely safe when used appropriately. I think we're lucky to have Mike Phillips provide educational articles on circular polishers and teaching classes on safely using these tools.

On the other hand, saying that a rotary is 10x faster than a DA and that using a rotary rather than a DA could take a 50 hour paint correction and turn it into a 4 hour paint correction is a bit hyperbolic. The OP is clearly passionate about this topic, as am I, but I think it's important to be realistic.

Also, I assume the OP is confusing "ease of use" with "smoothness". The rotary polisher is in fact MUCH smoother than most DA's. That said, Rupes has really tightened that gap.

Rasky,

I think you are an incredibly smart guy and probably a better detailer than I'll ever be.

But.......

Using an example of a body shop technician misusing a rotary by clearly buffing at extremely high speeds w/ a twisted wool pad and a compound that doesn't provide sufficient enough lubrication is not helping newcomers that are already scared of the rotary polisher.

Running a Rotary on low speeds 600-1200rpms, using a lambswool or foamed wool pad, and a quality abrasive compound that is heavily lubricated actually creates LESS heat than using microfiber cutting pad on a DA.

Most important, unless you are only getting paid for a 1-step correction. The very fine holograms and wool pad marks that are created in the cutting stage when PROPERLY using a rotary polisher are just as easy to remove if not EASIER than removing DA haze.
 
+1 I was going to say... Rotary = smoother, D/A= easier. With technology constantly changing this probably will too.
 
I kinda don’t want get involved with this spat here but I would like to politely give my opinion.

I personally like using a rotary polisher and it’s what I learned on. To say a rotary is 10x faster is foolish imo. When I do a final polish(jeweling as some call it) I actually spend more time using a rotary than a da but I feel the finish is just a hair better. Often times I start a vehicle with a rotary and finish with a da for final polishing.


What really matters is the end result and if you are pleased with the result. At one point in this industry there were a few pads and a handful of compounds/polishes. Now there so many options that users of both systems can provide a flawless finish.

You can take a bicycle, motorcycle or a Ferrari to work. Your enployer doesn’t care how you get there as long as YOU GET THERE!
 
If it is taking me multiple passes with a long throw DA then I will switch to rotary and purple wool or Black Lamb TufBuf . Then follow up with DA. There are some good medium/finish polishes out there where can still get it done in 2 steps. If it needs serious correction then I just start off with rotary. I also will use the Megs Solo red and yellow wool pads if its really needed.

Vibration wise the rotary the easiest, but requires a strong grip. Long throw DA is the next best vibration wise and you can maintain a light grip. Short throw DA is probably the next for vibration. The forced rotation machines have a lot of vibration and require a strong grip. The forced rotation machines are the hardest workout for me personally.
 
mwoywod said:
.

Rasky,

I think you are an incredibly smart guy and probably a better detailer than I'll ever be.

But.......

Using an example of a body shop technician misusing a rotary by clearly buffing at extremely high speeds w/ a twisted wool pad and a compound that doesn't provide sufficient enough lubrication is not helping newcomers that are already scared of the rotary polisher.

Running a Rotary on low speeds 600-1200rpms, using a lambswool or foamed wool pad, and a quality abrasive compound that is heavily lubricated actually creates LESS heat than using microfiber cutting pad on a DA.

Most important, unless you are only getting paid for a 1-step correction. The very fine holograms and wool pad marks that are created in the cutting stage when PROPERLY using a rotary polisher are just as easy to remove if not EASIER than removing DA haze.
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I will agree the example was a bit extreme and probably not the best, but it's all I had on hand. Knowing how body shops are it was likely more of a result of a dirty pad used over and over again and a nasty compound. My intent definitely wasn't to scare users away from the rotary and I actually believe every detailer should know how to use one.

I believe once you start getting into the "foamed wool" pad territory the rotary speed advantage in cut over the long throw and a MF pad is all but gone, and yes, the marks foamed wool leaves behind in the paint are easily removed. However, with a true twisted wool cutting pad you have a noticeably faster cut but I still feel the marring in the paint left behind is deeper then it would be with the same compound on a MF pad and the long throw, and I also like to run the rotary around 600-1200 rpms for compounding. Granted the improvements in compounds over the years haven definitely reduced the severity of the marring and it significantly better then the old 3M rocks in a bottle or bucket cut was, but the twisted wool cutting pad still leave a deeper defect in the paint. The actual paint type obviously plays a role too.

I was actually doing some testing a few weeks ago with a new compound and the car below needed to be wet sanded, so it made for a good test subject. After testing I ended up using the rotary with a Megs Solo wool cutting pad and M100 to remove the sanding marks due to the hardness of the paint and some of the panel shapes. The marring that step left behind was noticeably deeper then M100 and the other 3 compounds I tested with MF pads on the long throw. It also required an intermediate step to properly finish down where the DA and MF compounded areas did not.

As far as the heat goes, well that's going to depend on technique but the rotary is more capable of generating higher heat. I will agree wool pads tend to run cool though and I feel they're a great starting pad for new users as they don't have tendency to grab and hop like some of the foam pads can.

 
mwoywod said:
Boy, talk about a rollercoaster ride!

The OP does make a very good point in his initial post about the industry making people afraid of the rotary. The rotary polisher is an incredibly effective tool and is completely safe when used appropriately. I think we're lucky to have Mike Phillips provide educational articles on circular polishers and teaching classes on safely using these tools.

On the other hand, saying that a rotary is 10x faster than a DA and that using a rotary rather than a DA could take a 50 hour paint correction and turn it into a 4 hour paint correction is a bit hyperbolic. The OP is clearly passionate about this topic, as am I, but I think it's important to be realistic.

Also, I assume the OP is confusing "ease of use" with "smoothness". The rotary polisher is in fact MUCH smoother than most DA's. That said, Rupes has really tightened that gap.

Rasky,

I think you are an incredibly smart guy and probably a better detailer than I'll ever be.

But.......

Using an example of a body shop technician misusing a rotary by clearly buffing at extremely high speeds w/ a twisted wool pad and a compound that doesn't provide sufficient enough lubrication is not helping newcomers that are already scared of the rotary polisher.

Running a Rotary on low speeds 600-1200rpms, using a lambswool or foamed wool pad, and a quality abrasive compound that is heavily lubricated actually creates LESS heat than using microfiber cutting pad on a DA.

Most important, unless you are only getting paid for a 1-step correction. The very fine holograms and wool pad marks that are created in the cutting stage when PROPERLY using a rotary polisher are just as easy to remove if not EASIER than removing DA haze.
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^^^^Great post!^^^^^


ELGreco said:
... can you buff with a rotary 1 handed? And if you can I must meet your fitness trainer
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I can, have, and still do if it necessitates it (depending on what awkward angle I have to buff at or if it is an intricate item I have to buff- as the shop I work for doesn't have anything small for precise buffing)! (I'm only 5'9" 145lbs)
 
This discussion got a little pissy but I'll share my perspective.

With the introduction of new machines over recent years I do think there are less newcomers venturing into rotary familiarization. These "new" machines moved the capabilities closer to, equal to or even better than rotaries, depending on your experience and perspective. These advances expanded either the drive or the movement expanse. The new Makita even combines direct drive with free spinning capabilities. All of these advances gave us new capabilities of the DA that allowed more "rotary" like results without inflicting holograms or constantly fearing burn through in a snap.

I still use my rotary for certain aspects of paint work. I admit to using it less since my flex 3401 arrived however if I need to cut a large amount of paint quickly it's still the machine I grab first. Is it a time saver for me? Yup and the reason I bought one many years ago! However, there are some jobs (and most lately) that are solely tackled with my Flex. This paint today may react well and result in fewer steps to correct with my Flex. That paint tomorrow may need to be cut pretty hard with my rotary and I'll need to refine it after. I like picking the machine action that may work the best for the paint in front of me. I'll never tell the detailing world that everyone needs to grab the forgotten rotary because it cuts faster and feels smoother. We're all different and have our preferences. Use what works for you and you've gotten comfortable with.
 
That podcast with Billy and Barry. Yeah, that's came out when I was moonlighting at a production shop - using rotary, wool and M100 to cut most everything.

My findings were similar to what Rasky was describing. Where in some cases I could get by using something like Rupes UHS system and be done, others where I used the heavy cut rotary option needed a bit of a clean up. The clean up process wasn't too difficult though. I liked M205 on green B&S pads, on a PC. The shop owner liked PF2500 on uro-fiber, but that one could leave marring on softer paints. Some vehicles it finished beautifully!

I also was able to compare the Rupes 21 MK2 fitted with a 5" plate, 5" Meguiar's extra cut discs, and M100. I was actually nervous using that... no cushion, no pad stall.... It was probably the most intense experience I ever had cutting paint. I didn't even need a full set of passes. This combo probably bested the rotary - in my hands.
 
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