This one is for anyone who says a DA can't remove swirls...

OCDetails

OCDetails

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I have heard this for years that you can't remove swirls with a DA. There are clearly two camps that say either you can or cannot. Well, I'm in the camp that says if you can't remove swirls with a DA, then I wouldn't recommend trying with a rotary polisher because you clearly don't know what you are doing. Swirls can and will come out with a DA if you are using the right process and products. If you try to remove them with just a damp pad, then yeah... you'll have some difficulties. With my FLEX and XMT2 on a blue Edge2000 pad, these are some of the results I get.

(ignore the water streak)
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The left part of this hood was polished and the rest is not yet.
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Here is a good before/after on a nice Porsche.
Rear1-1.jpg


rearafter3.jpg


Hood1.jpg


hoodafter1.jpg



This one is from some dog scratches on the door of an X5.
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DSC01105.jpg


So just in case anyone ever tells you that in order to remove swirls you need a rotary, don't believe them. I don't even own a rotary because I've never run into something that I've needed it for. I guess on that last picture if I really wanted to get every last scratch out then I could have used a rotary, but it isn't like the dog isn't going to jump up on it again or that the car is going into a museum or something. lol For a daily driver I don't think perfection in the absolute sense is even a logical thing to strive for, but you can get close enough with a DA that 99% of people are going to think it is perfect. I guess I'm just not detailing the really nasty stuff, but I'd say that first picture was pretty nasty looking and it seemed to come out just fine with a DA. My motto is "You can do anything you know how to do." If you can't remove swirls with a DA, then learn. ;)
 
Great post. Nice pictures. I see the DA picking up some praise more and more on message boards. It is a great tool indeed, and I actually prefer my PCXP over my rotary. That may change, but for now, I like it.

OCDetails said:
This one is from some dog scratches on the door of an X5.
DSC01104.jpg


DSC01105.jpg


I guess on that last picture if I really wanted to get every last scratch out then I could have used a rotary, but it isn't like the dog isn't going to jump up on it again or that the car is going into a museum or something.
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You might have gotten them out with a rotary, maybe not. But I am sure you could have gotten them with feather sanding (as Mike P. calls it) and them followed up with the Flex and taken care of it. :xyxthumbs: (Not saying you should have - I understand, it's a daily driver and it is likely to happen again, so no sense in removing paint when it's not logical).

DLB
 
I'm with u, a DA can do a great job with the right product comb., also the correct pads and alot of time.:props:
 
sweet!

How many passes did it take? Just curious.
 
Forgive my ignorance but if there is a "camp" that believes a DA can't remove swirls then what the hell is it for? I certainly don't need a $120 wax applicator. This is the first I've heard of this so I'm a bit perplexed. I've removed easily-visible swirls by hand with SwirlX and UC, so why wouldn't a DA be able to?
 
One thing I think would help validate your post IMHO is explain how long you spent on each section.

You can correct a car by hand but may take a week so I wouldn't do it. The relevance, at least for me is how long it took.

With that said I had a PC for a week, sold it and stepped up to the Flex 3401. After using the Flex couple of times, I'm not sure it's even fair to compare a PC with it.

I had a problem with my 3403 Rotary and while returning it, I've been working on my car with the Flex 3401 and really if I would have gotten it first, I probably wouldn't have even bothered with a rotary. (Well save for the fact I couldn't use my 4" LC pads with the 3401 and got rid of my PC XP after a week.) I'm not knocking the PC and it has it's place, but just don't think it's fair to compare the two now.

This car I went over with my PC several times. I did each section 3 to 5 minutes per stage. Sometimes I would have to do a section multiple times as well.

The PC made a difference when taping off a section and looking before and after. But it still didn't get what I wanted in the amount of time and effort I expected. Granted I could have kept going over and over and I'm sure eventually I would have gotten it. But time is a factor for me.

In fairness, I was trying to use at most a yellow pad with the PC & most of the time an Orange pad with SIP & Powergloss because all the info out there had me cautious about using wool.

Now I'm pretty comfortable using LC 6.5" purple wool pads with M105 and the results have been great. (I used test panels to get comfie.)

Here's the car doing all I could with a PC & methods mentioned above. Please note how close I had to get and I had to find just the right angle to get the camera to pick up the remaining swirls.

BeforeWool.jpg


Now here is a side by side shot after running Flex 3401, LC Purple Foam 6.5, Megs #105 running over each section about 1 to 1.5 minutes and then #205 and a white CCS pad around a minute to 1 1/2 experimenting. A fraction of the time.

AfterWoolNWhite.jpg


Also, for kicks if you can get a junk panel and a brillo pad and do some comparisons on getting those types of scratches out.

Bottom line, anything you're using that's cutting, technically you can get down level with the scratches your trying to remove. Mike has a great post of getting out wetsanding marks with a Griot's 3" DA as well.

Great post post though.
 
sparkism13 said:
Forgive my ignorance but if there is a "camp" that believes a DA can't remove swirls then what the hell is it for? I certainly don't need a $120 wax applicator. This is the first I've heard of this so I'm a bit perplexed. I've removed easily-visible swirls by hand with SwirlX and UC, so why wouldn't a DA be able to?
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The whole reason I started the thread is because something jogged my memory today about a couple conversations I had at SEMA regarding polishers. There are people dead convinced that a DA is a fancy wax applicator. They said the only way to remove swirls was with a rotary. I tried to correct them, but trying to convince them was like trying to convince someone that Zaino products won't really cure cancer along with making your car shiny. lol I didn't know if there was anybody here who believed that a DA is useless as a swirl removal tool, so I wanted to create something to help dispel any thoughts like that.

A DA might be slower than a Rotary for sure, but it still works. I found about a 30% gain in my efficiency when I went from my PC 7424 to the FLEX 3401. That difference paid for the machine in the first month of using it. I still haven't found anything the FLEX removes that I couldn't have done with a little more time on the PC, but I have no doubt that a Rotary would simply be quicker, but not necessarily better. My philosophy is that better is better no matter how long it takes, so there really shouldn't be a rush to perfection. Be efficient when you can, but if you can get results in a safer way or in a more economical way, then kudos for finding a process that works for you. :) (that doesn't go against my other thread about the WOWO not saving any time either. I still say that isn't an effective way to save time) ;)
 
I dont' recall anybody ever saying a DA can't remove swirls. Depending on the DA it just takes about 2 to 3 times as long as a rotary to do the job. I think some polishes don't seem to work that well with a weak DA like the PC. The Flex DA is a much better machine with a lot more power.
 
Gary Sword said:
I dont' recall anybody ever saying a DA can't remove swirls. Depending on the DA it just takes about 2 to 3 times as long as a rotary to do the job. I think some polishes don't seem to work that well with a weak DA like the PC. The Flex DA is a much better machine with a lot more power.
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I don't necessarily agree that a rotary is that much faster than a DA. I was getting results like these with my PC for years before I bought the FLEX. The FLEX is about 30% faster, as I mentioned before, but I wouldn't say that it is such a slow process that I would need a Rotary. I get a car from this:

DSC09603.jpg


to this:
DSC09617.jpg


is two to three hours including wash, clay, polish, and seal time. If you can polish a car like that in 15 minutes with a rotary and get results that don't look like this:

bufferburn1.jpg


then I guess I should look into getting one. ;)

There are those out there who feel the DA is a complete waste of time though. I guess after getting used to a Rotary it is hard to go back to a DA just like it would be hard for me to go back to the PC after the FLEX, but that doesn't mean they aren't effective machines. I certainly wouldn't try to attack another boat until I get a rotary, but I wouldn't hesitate to bust out the PC or FLEX for any automobile project and expect to get great results.
 
Having used the PC, Cyclo, and Flex I feel they are in different "camps". The Flex is the only TRUE Dual Action machine since it has forced rotation. It is the top of the heap for this type of polisher. All will remove swirls but the time involved is the critical factor.
 
I am pretty sure there is little if any opposition to the fact that DAs can and do remove swirls and defects. There are pro's and con's with any style buffer, and need to be looked at as seperate entities. A PC is a true DA since it has no forced rotation, a Flex is a hybrid with both oscillation and forced rotation, and a rotary is forced rotation only so I can't see how these can be mixed into the same basket.

There is no doubt that a DA is a great correction tool and can more than pull its weight. But using your comment on how a Flex is 30 percent faster, say you spend 10 hours on a full 2 step paint correction with a DA; that would mean it would take only 6 1/2 hours roughly with a Flex or rotary. That is very significant, especially when detailing on a regular basis.
 
A da will correct some swirls, especially if you are not good with a rotary. Now someone that knows how to use a rotary will be faster than someone with a da and will take out more severe defects also. Just a note your pics are at anangle so it is hard to really judge how much of the defects were truely removed and some afters were not shot in the same direction as the befores. I am not saying the the da didn't remove anything but the pictures should be shot a little closer in the same angles to see the true results. Also was there any IPA wipedowns to see the true results?
 
Well the first machine i bought from Ag was the orignal Pc and alot of pads and a bunch of products.I all ready owned a rotary but really never had a reason to use it.Well i stepped up to the plate and bought a Corvette in what i feel is the hardest color to look good Black.
I should back up some sorry the order was buy the vette,find this great forum,Then did alot of reading and figured time to take the plunge.
Few days later my order came and was all ready to start detailing my new toy and hopefully start a small side bussiness to earn some extra cash.
After spending hours on the vette with my new Pc and trying all kinds of products pads and technique's i all ready had enough i was ready to sell the vette and put everything i bought on the shelf.
That's when i met (ASPAULT ROCKET) he noticed my posts and since he owned a Corvette he knew he could and would steer me in the right direction.
First thing he asked what was i using on the car when i told him it was a Pc and he laughed to me that the Pc is good for door jams.After hearing that my stomach turned into knots.

What the heck did i do i said to myself .But it gets better i told him i all ready owned a rotary and he put me in the right direction for sure.

Spent 15 plus hours using a rotary and my car was the first car i ever used a rotary on how crazy i must of been.

After winning a first place trophy in a stock class and then winning another three.I know now looking back there would be no way i would of done that with a Pc.
I still try the Pc on the members of my corvette club and still have to go back to my rotary.

Long story sorry but i just don't see the Pc doing the same correction as a rotary not saying it can't be done on certain cars .But the time it takes there is no way you can make a sizeable profit if you do this fulltime.
 
Harleyguy said:
After winning a first place trophy in a stock class and then winning another three.I know now looking back there would be no way i would of done that with a Pc.

I still try the Pc on the members of my corvette club and still have to go back to my rotary.

Long story sorry but i just don't see the Pc doing the same correction as a rotary not saying it can't be done on certain cars .But the time it takes there is no way you can make a sizeable profit if you do this fulltime.
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time is of the essence for some, but can be done with variables...

PS Detailed: 2008 Corvette owner looses sleep untill..... - Autopia.org
 
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BigAl3 said:
time is of the essence for some, but can be done with variables...

PS Detailed: 2008 Corvette owner looses sleep untill..... - Autopia.org
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I read that post when he first did the car.I just wonder and don't get me wrong i just don't understand why the first set of pictures were all close up's of the defects.But most of the after shots were far away and and not in the bright sun.Look at the other post by OCdetails and how to take proper pictures.I don't know what kind of variable those surbuf pads played in doing the paint correction.But i really don't think pads play as bigger part in paint correction on a hard clear coat as much as process used and the right machine and technique.I've met pro detailers if you gave them a sponge to use to correct swirls they probably would make a car look good.As long as you didn't take pictures of the car in direct sunlight.
 
A lot of detailers here do this for a living, so time is money. A good detailer would know how to use a rotary and a DA. With the new DA's on the market today you could do a good job with just a DA. The Flex did change the game a lot especially for the detailer that was not experienced with a rotary. Using the Flex compared to the pc probably did save 30% in time. Now with the newer PC's that time is cut to maybe 10%. Using a flex and a wool pad to remove sanding marks will take you a lot more time than with a rotary. Some here like Asphalt Rocket can finish down with a rotary with no holograms or buffer trails. So the end results depends on what your after... is time important to you or maybe your not confident with a rotary. Use the machine that you are comfortable with and that will get the job done right.
 
OCDetails said:
I don't necessarily agree that a rotary is that much faster than a DA. I was getting results like these with my PC for years before I bought the FLEX. The FLEX is about 30% faster, as I mentioned before, but I wouldn't say that it is such a slow process that I would need a Rotary. I get a car from this:

DSC09603.jpg


to this:
DSC09617.jpg


is two to three hours including wash, clay, polish, and seal time. If you can polish a car like that in 15 minutes with a rotary and get results that don't look like this:

bufferburn1.jpg


then I guess I should look into getting one. ;)

There are those out there who feel the DA is a complete waste of time though. I guess after getting used to a Rotary it is hard to go back to a DA just like it would be hard for me to go back to the PC after the FLEX, but that doesn't mean they aren't effective machines. I certainly wouldn't try to attack another boat until I get a rotary, but I wouldn't hesitate to bust out the PC or FLEX for any automobile project and expect to get great results.
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You said you've been using a pc for years before getting a Flex. If you learned how to use a rotary you might have not bought the Flex because a rotary and a pc would have given you the best finish possible in less time.
 
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