Tip Jars

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The base service is covered by the wage, the base service is getting the product you order not decaf. Why do you have the right to change the product given? How does your employer feel about this?



Though I don't agree with being rude what you are doing when you do that is BEYOND rude, it's illegal much like replacing a on tap keg with a different kind of beer in a bar when you run out (it happens).


Why do people have the right to be assholes? Why should I have any respect for people who show zero respect for me? And the "it's your job" reason doesn't cut it for me, sorry. Anyways, this all got out of hand. I didn't think that post would get taken so seriously, but I've spent way too much time on this thread. I'm waving the white flag.


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Why do people have the right to be assholes? Why should I have any respect for people who show zero respect for me? And the "it's your job" reason doesn't cut it for me, sorry. Anyways, this all got out of hand. I didn't think that post would get taken so seriously, but I've spent way too much time on this thread. I'm waving the white flag.


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People have the right to be assholes due to free speech. It's not the best way to be but you can be. The owner of an establishment has the right to refuse this person service as well but an employer or employee does not have the right to sell a product to someone via misrepresentation. Don't like someone's attitude then refuse service don't break the law. If your employer does not allow you to refuse service then that is something you take up with them as I am sure they wouldn't approve of you serving whatever product you felt the customer deserved instead of what was ordered and paid for.

Being a bigger asshole does not make things right. At that point you are worse than the customer, your actions reflect not only on you but your employer.
 
At a nearby shopping complex a guy holds a sign. "Will work for food" or should it say: "Will Scam you for food"? The thing is, people have stooped to new lows. Keep your money in your pocket, and always beware of the bad guys. The economy is not really that great for many people. I see it in my own numbers. As for tipping, let this new generation, whatever they are, discover, work equals money.
 
I think this is an interesting thread with some definite existential dilemma.

On the one hand you have the customer who believes that he pays (in the base price) for the right to good food (or coffee) and the right to good service..... without regards for the person serving him/her (a basic buy/sell contractual agreement). Basically, I order my coffee, I get said coffee and I get an experience pleasant enough for me to return. On the other hand you have an employee that feels his "contractual agreement" include the rights to demand of a customer a proportional compensation for the goods and service they provide (base price + tips), and included is the right to demand that the customer be pleasant, courteous etc.... This is not the case.... an employee of a business is in a contractual agreement with the employer not the customer. His obligations extends to the customer as part of their employment agreement (to attract return business etc..) but complaints and grievances should be with the employer, never with the customer. If an employee believes themselves under-compensated then they need to renegotiate with the employer .... or move on to a better employer.

A tip or a gratuity is a generous contribution above and beyond which should represent the "above and beyond". Unfortunately we have trained our youth/young adult to expect and demand those gratuities based on the fact that "we all know the crappy and thankless is nature of food service (or other services provided to the public)". What a bunch of hogwash! You don't want the thankless job, then don't agree take on a thankless job... period! If you do decide to take the job, then do the job for the wages you agreed with, within the parameters of your employment. Make yourself an invaluable employee and have a better position to renegotiate your contract.

If I go through a drive through to get a coffee, do I (as a customer) have a contractual obligation to be polite and courteous when ordering, or does this fall under a moral obligation? Based on the contractual (buy/sell agreement of said goods) of the purchase of a coffee am I not entitled to get the coffee the way I ordered it? Does the employee have the right to unilaterally modify my order? and does the customer have the right to expect courteous service? Does this again fall under a moral obligation? It is a moral obligation! I don't have to do a single thing other than place my order and pay. I don't have to smile, don't have to say thank you, don't have to leave a tip.

It is the responsibility of the business (employer/employers) offer an extra incentive for the customer to come back (ie. good, polite, courteous service) for fear that their market share will move to a competitor (being that it is a customer driven industry).... but is it the obligation of the customer to reward the courteous service?

I personally believe that all this animosity towards the customer not leaving a tip should be directed to the employer who does not reward their employees for a job well done, and those businesses should be allowed to fail (due to the lack of employees or the overabundance of crappy employees which will ultimately sour enough customer that they won't remain profitable).

If you enter the service business then you should understand that you have to "serve" despite your customers, despite your preconceived idea of rewards, despite your environment etc.. You serve to fulfill your contractual obligation to your employer. You don't like it, then move on... or renegotiate with your employer.... not with the customer! If you want the customer to reward you above and beyond then do the best job you can and never expect that your best is good enough. Sometimes you will get those tips, sometimes you won't.... If you feel you should spit in someone's food or short change their order because you are mad they didn't tell you hello, or chose to stay on their phone and ignore you then you should get out of the service business.
 
People have the right to be a%&$#@*% due to free speech. It's not the best way to be but you can be. The owner of an establishment has the right to refuse this person service as well but an employer or employee does not have the right to sell a product to someone via misrepresentation. Don't like someone's attitude then refuse service don't break the law. If your employer does not allow you to refuse service then that is something you take up with them as I am sure they wouldn't approve of you serving whatever product you felt the customer deserved instead of what was ordered and paid for.

Being a bigger a&$%#@* does not make things right. At that point you are worse than the customer, your actions reflect not only on you but your employer.


People are often rude/disrespectful/verbally abusive toward service staff only because they know the employee is completely defenseless. How many of these people would treat a server, cashier, barista, etc. they way they do if the employee could return in kind? If you wouldn't say it to a police officer or a judge you shouldn't say it to anyone who does not have the option to return in kind or walk away. Those who treat service staff with anything less than cordial respect are showing more about their own place in life than that of the employee they are looking down upon.

Tipping is a way of showing appreciation. When it comes to tip jars, if you don't want to tip, don't. When it comes to industries where tips ARE the income it is absolutely disrespectful (and borders on "theft of service") to not tip appropriately.
 
Dr. Pain we seem to share the same opinion and nationality, their might be a connection there. I just wanted to add that some corporations like Costco do a great business and make a profit while giving all employees a fair wage, REI and others in retail do as well. It is possible but some companies believe they can try to pass the obligation onto the customer, it doesn't take much to see that many workers are complacent with that system and will tow that same line. The answer in my eyes is making the effort to change your life and not have to work at such places. It's not easy to make that change but many of us have done so.

I apologize for the profanity flash, I was using it to not stray from the words of the person I was quoting.
 
I used to work for tips when I worked for a full service car wash thru high school and college. I never gave someone half a$$ service if I knew they were not going to tip. Their car got cleaned and if they asked for something touched up or gone over again I did it. The known big tippers got the same treatment but when I could I would direct them to my work lane or skip over a car that was in a different lane that may have arrived first. The only tip that really annoyed me was a guy in a Mercedes SL who gave a starbucks gift card as the tip. When I went to use the card for a cup of coffee there was 37 cents on it.

I believe that tips are for "above and beyond service" not required. It angers me when restaurants ad tips into the bill automatically.

A friend of my wife's on Facebook who is a waitress posted some article about tipping once with the comment that "if you cannot afford to tip then don't go out to eat" she's a college drop out BTW and my wife didn't let me post back to her "if can't afford to live without tips, then go to school and get a higher paying job" but that's the way I feel about it.

Having worked for tips makes me more critical of those who do. Your service level quality will determine your tip. I've given $25 on a $35 bill. (wife scolded me) And $1.50ish on a + $50 bill before. (wife also scolded me for that one)
 
People are often rude/disrespectful/verbally abusive toward service staff only because they know the employee is completely defenseless. How many of these people would treat a server, cashier, barista, etc. they way they do if the employee could return in kind? If you wouldn't say it to a police officer or a judge you shouldn't say it to anyone who does not have the option to return in kind or walk away. Those who treat service staff with anything less than cordial respect are showing more about their own place in life than that of the employee they are looking down upon.

Tipping is a way of showing appreciation. When it comes to tip jars, if you don't want to tip, don't. When it comes to industries where tips ARE the income it is absolutely disrespectful (and borders on "theft of service") to not tip appropriately.

Every industry in the US is forced to pay federal minimum wage, the employer is supposed to make up the difference if tips and hourly do not equal the federal min wage, that's from a legal standpoint therefore when it comes to min wage all are equal. Look at my other post where I adressed that businesses can pay more than minumum wage if they have the proper business model. If I am to pay extra for service then charge that fee don't make it optional, if a fee is optional then not paying it is never theft. If you don't like the fact that I don't tip you, either go above and beyond, speak to your employer about your wage or obtain better employment.

I was born poor, I worked corn detasseling, rock picking and then at an auto parts counter as a high schooler. I went on to get better paying jobs through my own effort, I never expected tips at any point but always appreciated them if given.
 
People are often rude/disrespectful/verbally abusive toward service staff only because they know the employee is completely defenseless. How many of these people would treat a server, cashier, barista, etc. they way they do if the employee could return in kind? If you wouldn't say it to a police officer or a judge you shouldn't say it to anyone who does not have the option to return in kind or walk away. Those who treat service staff with anything less than cordial respect are showing more about their own place in life than that of the employee they are looking down upon.



Tipping is a way of showing appreciation. When it comes to tip jars, if you don't want to tip, don't. When it comes to industries where tips ARE the income it is absolutely disrespectful (and borders on "theft of service") to not tip appropriately.


+1


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Every industry in the US is forced to pay federal minimum wage, the employer is supposed to make up the difference if tips and hourly do not equal the federal min wage, that's from a legal standpoint therefore when it comes to min wage all are equal. Look at my other post where I adressed that businesses can pay more than minumum wage if they have the proper business model. If I am to pay extra for service then charge that fee don't make it optional, if a fee is optional then not paying it is never theft. If you don't like the fact that I don't tip you, either go above and beyond, speak to your employer about your wage or obtain better employment.

I was born poor, I worked corn detasseling, rock picking and then at an auto parts counter as a high schooler. I went on to get better paying jobs through my own effort, I never expected tips at any point but always appreciated them if given.


You expect good service at a restaurant and the server expects (and the IRS expects and taxes the server on) the appropriate tip. You know this going in. Why is it fair for you to receive what you expect but the server not to? If you truly feel that tipping should be abolished, simply inform the server in advance. Otherwise you are taking advantage of the situation for your own benefit.

Funny thing is, people want to complain about poor service in restaurants while at the same time saying the restaurants should pay them a flat wage. In order to have both would cost far more than what a 20% tip costs you now. There are restaurants that do so successfully but the cost of a meal there is many times the cost of, say, Chili's.

Basically what you are saying is you have no respect for anyone who is not on your economic level.
 
You expect good service at a restaurant and the server expects (and the IRS expects and taxes the server on) the appropriate tip.

NO, this is where people seem to not understand the law. Federal minimum wage in the USA is $7.25. The minimum hourly cash wage is $2.13. The max tip credit against minimum wage is $5.12. If the server fails to earn 5.12 in tips per hour the difference between tips earned, min hourly cash wage and federal minimum wage must be made up by the employer. 8 states require employers to pay workers full state minimum wage before tips and 25 states require employers to pay workers above federal tipped minimum wage. The rest require employers to pay workers as low as federal tipped minimum wage ($2.13/hr.) but again due to federal law if tips and the cash wage don't add up to federal minimum the employer must pay the difference to ensure federal minimum is met.

In other words the Fair Labor Standards Act dictates that where an employee does not recieve sufficient tips to make up the difference between the direct (or cash) wage payment (which must me atleast $2.13 per hour) and the minimum wage, the employer must make up the difference.


.You know this going in. Why is it fair for you to receive what you expect but the server not to?

Because as you have made clear the server is only expecting a tip either because they do not understand the law or feel entitled to a wage above what the federal and state have set (7.25 or above). Why should I subsidize your employer since the 1st $5.12 is literally subsidizing their choice to not pay minimum wage unless the customer doesn't do it for them. The employee should expect what the law grants them and what the employer promises them my agreement is with the employer when I order from a business and their agreement is with the employee to provide a specific service to the customer not based on tip.

If you truly feel that tipping should be abolished, simply inform the server in advance. Otherwise you are taking advantage of the situation for your own benefit.

As I said I will tip for going above and beyond otherwise your employer should be making up the difference...maybe I should be asking if you have been tipped $5.12 or more this hour to ensure I'm not acting as an employer subsidy.

Funny thing is, people want to complain about poor service in restaurants while at the same time saying the restaurants should pay them a flat wage. In order to have both would cost far more than what a 20% tip costs you now. There are restaurants that do so successfully but the cost of a meal there is many times the cost of, say, Chili's.

I'd pay more to ensure my server gets a proper wage, then again I can just not tip if I get normal or crap service and the employer will ensure that. If more people follow suit costs may rise some and I am OK with that. I'd rather pay more for my meal than support than subsidize the employer so he or she can show greater profits. It would also stop arguments like this and make laws easier to understand for those who don't. That federal law forcing employers to pay the difference is why servers will be sent home during slow times, to ensure that $5.12 doesn't have to be made up by the employer.

Basically what you are saying is you have no respect for anyone who is not on your economic level.

If that is your takeaway you didn't read or comprehend what I wrote. I show tolerance for everyone (respect is earned not given). I am courteous but don't expect my order to be changed if I happen to not be (because you know that is not only morally wrong it is illegal) I tip those who go above and beyond their job which they make $7.25 (or more depending on state, IL for example is $8.25) at regardless of if I tip or not and neither respect nor tolerance is determined by income in my eyes.

I worked minimum wage without tips (auto parts clerk) and made alot less than my friend who got tips waiting tables. At that time I worked for student wage which is worse, much worse.
 
You expect good service at a restaurant and the server expects (and the IRS expects and taxes the server on) the appropriate tip. You know this going in. Why is it fair for you to receive what you expect but the server not to? If you truly feel that tipping should be abolished, simply inform the server in advance. Otherwise you are taking advantage of the situation for your own benefit.

Funny thing is, people want to complain about poor service in restaurants while at the same time saying the restaurants should pay them a flat wage. In order to have both would cost far more than what a 20% tip costs you now. There are restaurants that do so successfully but the cost of a meal there is many times the cost of, say, Chili's.

Basically what you are saying is you have no respect for anyone who is not on your economic level.

It is fair for the customer to expect to receive what they order, because it is on the menu, and often, so is the price. The restaurant or coffee shop (not a real restaurant IMO) is a service business. It is their obligation to provide a reasonable quality item that is ordered.
That is the PRICE. Period.
A tip is a GRATUITY. That means it is only given if the CUSTOMER believes that the service given is enough to warrant more money. Servers might EXPECT to receive tips from everyone, but that is entitlement. The reality is that not everyone tips. That has always been true. People know that going into the profession.

If a customer is rude, all the establishment has a right to do is refuse service.
If you were to tell a sever they weren't getting tipped beforehand, any sever who would be angry about not getting tipped would more than likely spit in the food because of this foreknowledge. Any server would wouldn't get upset if they didn't get tipped wouldn't be upset whether they knew it ahead of time or not.
Things can only go wrong by tempting unethical restaurant workers to spit in food by telling them you won't tip.
Telling them you won't tip ahead of time, is perhaps insulting, and not just cheap.

There is no taking advantage for your own benefit by not tipping. There never has been. The fact that anyone would believe that proves how entitled some people have become.

I used to deliver pizzas. 97% of the people said keep the change, which was about 25-30 cents. 20% of those would actually give a 10-15% tip. 3% demanded all their change back. (Meaning they would demand it when they gave me the money, while most people would say keep the change )...
I never expected from every customer.
I actually provided a service, while coffee shop drink mixers don't. They aren't bartenders.
I also worked fast food. I never received tips there.
 
With all thalk bout tips, I feel where you bought your car. You should give your salesperson a 10-15 percent tip.
:dblthumb2:



As far as doing a job right, my dad always said, "If you can't do it right the first time don't do it all."


as a far as substittuting decaf coffee, you must be a really cheerful person and never have a bad day. Wow I wish I could get just one of those.
 
You expect good service at a restaurant and the server expects (and the IRS expects and taxes the server on) the appropriate tip. You know this going in. Why is it fair for you to receive what you expect but the server not to? If you truly feel that tipping should be abolished, simply inform the server in advance. Otherwise you are taking advantage of the situation for your own benefit.

Funny thing is, people want to complain about poor service in restaurants while at the same time saying the restaurants should pay them a flat wage. In order to have both would cost far more than what a 20% tip costs you now. There are restaurants that do so successfully but the cost of a meal there is many times the cost of, say, Chili's.

Basically what you are saying is you have no respect for anyone who is not on your economic level.

This is the prime example of the "existential dilemma". Some will see the transaction as just that, a transaction of goods and services for pay, whereas other will see it as a moral, ethical, socially acceptable transaction...... there will never be a resolution.

A customer CHOOSES to go to a certain place of business to get the goods he wants and does have the expectation to get a certain degree of service which will make his experience "worth the money". If the goods or the service is not to his liking, he will still get his goods but from different place.

An employee can have personal desire to work in a workplace that is friendly, cordial, uplifting, and can desire all they want to only serve customer following the same ideology HOWEVER the reality of it is completely different than this utopia dreamt of. The fact remains that the service industry has always and will always be driven by the customer and the customer experience, and the service person will be at the receiving end. As an employee you entered into an agreement with the employer to get paid for a fair wage and fair hours, and a safe environment...... and your personal expectations (albeit altruistic for a better society) are just wishful thinking. As an service employee you are required to SERVE regardless if the customer is nice, a good tipper, cute, of the right ethnicity etc... UNLESS the owner/boss chooses to allow you the latitude of not serving (to a certain legal extent, since it is his business and his rules), or UNLESS it is prohibited by law or UNLESS it is physically unsafe. Your personal expectations get checked at the door once you choose a service job. If you don't like it, then select a different job or renegotiate..... but again the burden is on employee/employer to resolve and not a between the customer and employee (since the goods and service contract is between customer and establishment not service person (unless laws applies)).

I am a well read individual and owner of 3 businesses (2 of which are service business) and I have yet to see a single legislation that stipulate that a customer breaks any laws by refusing to smile, say please or thank you, or leave a tip. From a social and moral standpoint I can agree that it will make for a much better society to do those things HOWEVER those are wishful expectations and definitely not market driven. The market is Supply & Demand and if the customer demands cheap goods and excellent service then the person supplying will win and the place with high expectations of their customer base (and attitude to reflect) will FAIL, therefore no wage and no possibility of tips. If you are an employee of a fail business with a desire to please and serve yourself over your customer base and you decided to go get a job at the thriving place down the road then you will have to abide by the rules and regulations of that business..... and just to reiterate a statement often used (and so true in the service business, even if we don't like it), "The Customer is Always Right!!"

.... and he is!

Nth, your expressed opinion seems to indicate that someone going to eat out and choose not to tip is abusive and takes advantage of the server. I will agree with you if you are taking feelings and moral standards as your standard HOWEVER when you choose to go eat out, your only expectations (as a customer) is to not hindered the work of the server by not selecting your food, and wasting their time, and taking valuable "retail space".... and second pay your bill. A tip, aka a gratuity, is defined as a gift, present or reward, not an "expected" add-on.

Personally if I go to a place that automatically add an 18% gratuity to large groups, then I don't go back.... and if enough customers complain then the management has a decision to make. I've seen PLENTY places change their policies (or choose not to implement their own policies) because of market demand. I will offer a tip to any service person that goes above and beyond as a gift for making my experience the best they can, and I will offer an even greater gratuity to the new employee frazzled and discombobulated that tries so hard, but failing. If I get a seasoned server that barely does the minimum and couldn't care less to make my experience better then I will not tip (and won't be discourteous about it) but will make sure to select a different server IF I decide to go back to that establishment.

We should not reward mediocrity because it is expected, we should reward excellence
 
You know what I just realized...... we are soooooooo far off the "tip jar" subject. If you guys want, we can ask the following questions (on the subject tip jars):

"Does a customer have the right to expect not to be subjected to the practice of tip jars, when entering a business!?"
"Does a business have the right to subject their customers to the practice of tip jars??"

This should get us back on track, right???? Nope because the answer is still going to be a dichotomy of opinion based on contractual business obligations and emotional expectations for a utopia society.
 
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