Toyota Supra

Saw the Supra, still don't like it and asked 2 groups of random people about and they agreed it shouldn't have been called S U P R A.

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Klasse Act said:
Saw the Supra, still don't like it and asked 2 groups of random people about and they agreed it shouldn't have been called S U P R A.

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There seems not be any good looking designs coming out of Japan other than the LC500, none from the US, and very few from Europe these days. If buying anything modern, I'll simply resign myself to focus on performance and driving experience first and then hope I don't find the car horribly ugly.

I just hope all the bad response to this vehicle doesn't make it the last of the modern Japanese sports cars. The BRZ/86 platform supposedly will have one more generation, but continuing very slow sales will probably lead to that generation being the last. Nissan has already given up and simply keeps selling old platforms designed over a decade ago. I seriously doubt they will be sold much longer. Mazda's Miata is the only bright spot in the bunch, but it's more of a classic roadster than a mid-level sports car.

I know I might sound like a broken record, but performance car enthusiasts in the US market have to get past notions of tradition, origin, badges, and nostalgia surrounding previous generations of a vehicle. The days we can do that are long gone and as the buyers of performance cars continue to fade away and the general public continues to buy automotive transportation appliances. The partnerships and cross pollination of parts will be the only thing which keeps any fun car on the market. Combined efforts by the likes of Mazda/Fiat, Aston Martin/Mercedes, Porsche/Audi/Lamborghini/VW, BMW/Toyota, Toyota/Subaru, Alfa/Maserati/Ferrari/Fiat will be the only thing keeping the hyper-niche market of sports cars from disappearing completely. I'm afraid we'll all be mourning the extinction of the affordable sports car in the not-distant future. Buy one now while you can.

I'll get off my soapbox now.....
 
I think the name celica was/is too soft for this car so I imagine that’s why they used Supra. Although they could have used a different new name all together

I kinda like it. Looks good in commercial, sounds good in commercial

It’s not a high sales car they know that going in. 2 door cars in general are poor sellers now a days.

Many companies work together for power train items. They cost a lot to R&D but that said and others I think mentioned it they have Lexus parts they could have used

Maybe cheaper to buy the bmw stuff or it just fit the platform size they were looking at. I haven’t researched anything about the car and how it came to life as it’s not really anything I could justify as a dad with 2 toddlers. Heck maybe bmw came to them and asked for money to have the rights to use it on a vehicle. Could have been execs that knew each other etc

I love the conversation about it. I don’t think it’s stealing any stinger business or is meant too. More just that small niche market and a few previous Supra owners that may have money and desire for that car like that again




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MattPersman said:
Many companies work together for power train items. They cost a lot to R&D but that said and others I think mentioned it they have Lexus parts they could have used

Maybe cheaper to buy the bmw stuff or it just fit the platform size they were looking at. I haven’t researched anything about the car and how it came to life as it’s not really anything I could justify as a dad with 2 toddlers. Heck maybe bmw came to them and asked for money to have the rights to use it on a vehicle. Could have been execs that knew each other etc
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The conversation was centered around the engine. Toyota knew they needed/wanted another inline-six like the previous Supra, but didn't have the engine in-house, so they went to the one place still making them: BMW.

Toyota Explains Why The New Supra Is Powered By BMW
 
Desertnate said:
The conversation was centered around the engine. Toyota knew they needed/wanted another inline-six like the previous Supra, but didn't have the engine in-house, so they went to the one place still making them: BMW.

Toyota Explains Why The New Supra Is Powered By BMW
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Any reason or excuse Toyota gives is weak. There's no reason why they couldn't have built a new version of the MKIV motor, which is a monster. The could've easily built upon the old motor with improvements or could've even put the same motor in and people would be thrilled. The point is they took major steps backwards from a mid 90's car when they could've created a new legend. BTW they can no longer tout that Toyota reliability anymore either.

Lexus has a few cars that could have been a better setup for a new Supra. A toned down LFA would've even worked.
 
The reasoning goes back to economics and the LFA is a great example.

Despite the LFA being sold for around $400K, Lexus only built 500 and at least 12 in the US never sold. They are still at dealerships today (Jalopnik actually found them). Toyota/Lexus lost money on every LFA they sold, rumor has it the amount was $300~$800K per car. I can't see Toyota taking those kinds of financial risks in today's economic environment. Best case the car will never sell in numbers which would make enough money to cover development costs. Sales margins on cars are VERY small. This isn't an F-150.

I doubt the old MKIV engine would be able to meet modern emissions and fuel economy standards required by auto makers. I also doubt the tooling used to make the original engine still exists at Toyota. It was probably destroyed or sold off once production ended. Any engine development, even if based on previous designs would have to be a clean slate. To keep engine development in-house you would have ended up with the V-6 used in the IS or Camary which is not real thrilling, or a huge heavy V-8 from the GS-F, RC-F, or LS.

I have to admit our Toyota has been VERY reliable. Our Highlander has 220K miles with only one small electrical fault. It still runs strong and I don't see why we won't get at least 350K out of it.

I ask this question without any snark, but actually like to know people's thoughts: What about the suspension being BMW or the ZF transmission? Neither of those are Toyota either, but I haven't heard any complaints. The 8-speed ZF is used in tons of vehicles all over the world, i.e. Jeep, Chrysler, BMW, Audi, Fiat, etc. The transmission is a real charmer for a slush-box and drives of the prototype Supra and production Z4 have been really positive regarding handling and ride.
 
Well doubting isn't knowing, that's why I said an updated version or at least a new in house version, they've have a couple decades to work on it. The suspension isn't as important as the motor, but the tranny does matter since these cars are inevitably modded so how much they can hold matters. Like I said before though, it's clearly aimed at the Z4/FRS crowd and not the Supra crowd.

Non JDM guys won't care as much as JDM guys, especially from the cars of the 90's. Japanese parts were as important as OEM parts, probably more so.
 
I don't mind Toyota wanting to keep tradition with the inline-6, my gripe (though it's a mild one) is the reliability aspect. As an owner of a n54 335i I know first hand how "finicki" BMW power trains can be. Having said that I agree its probably under-rated and will be easily tuned out to make really nice power numbers. I just think that from a reliability perspective Toyota could have gone with a detuned version of the twin turbo 3.5 v6 found in the new LS. Rumor has it it will be the heart of an upcoming IS-F, could be they were worried about cannibalizing future RC-F sales if it lives on and also gets the TTV6.......
 
I respect WHY they did an inline 6 but its not just the engine here, that's the thing! It also goes into the interior as well. People want Toyota and if given the chance to do this all over again, I bet they'd drop that blown 3.5 V6 into that car they use in the Evora 430 and call it a day, makes you wonder.....?
 
jkrig said:
I don't mind Toyota wanting to keep tradition with the inline-6, my gripe (though it's a mild one) is the reliability aspect. As an owner of a n54 335i I know first hand how "finicki" BMW power trains can be. Having said that I agree its probably under-rated and will be easily tuned out to make really nice power numbers. I just think that from a reliability perspective Toyota could have gone with a detuned version of the twin turbo 3.5 v6 found in the new LS. Rumor has it it will be the heart of an upcoming IS-F, could be they were worried about cannibalizing future RC-F sales if it lives on and also gets the TTV6.......
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From talking to owners of newer BMW's the N55 and the B58 (in the Supra) inline-6's are much more reliable and robust than the N54 which most admit wasn't BMW's finest hour.

I hope the IS-F does come to pass. The IS 350 isn't all bad, it's just in dire need of a better engine, better transmission, and a diet. Ditching the AWD drive train would be a good idea while they're at it.

Klasse Act said:
I respect WHY they did an inline 6 but its not just the engine here, that's the thing! It also goes into the interior as well. People want Toyota and if given the chance to do this all over again, I bet they'd drop that blown 3.5 V6 into that car they use in the Evora 430 and call it a day, makes you wonder.....?
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Sadly Toyota really doesn't provide much of the Lotus engine beyond the block and basic parts. Lotus adds the blower, totally different engine management, and completely re-tunes it. They'd almost have to buy that engine back from Lotus after it is done, or have another partnership and we'd be having the discussion about the engine being from Lotus rather than BMW.

Going with one of their own V-6's probably would have driven them back to building their own, unique platform since the BMW architecture was designed around an inline 6. Besides packaging, the V-8's were probably too big and heavy to work in a car that size; it would have destroyed the weight balance.

I think all these discussion come back around to the fact the Japanese automakers are no longer willing to go "all-in" on performance cars like they once did. The president of Toyota is a real gear head and a huge racing fan, but that still isn't enough to go totally solo on a sports car.

As a child of the 80's I have fond memories of RX-7's, Nissan Z-cars, Celica, Supra, and most of all the MR-2...I still weep for the passing of the MK2 MR-2. My bedroom walls were covered with 911's, 944's, M-3's, and Countaches, but I knew I'd probably never own one and it would be one of the Japanese cars in my driveway. Too bad those good Japanese cars are all gone today. While not a true JDM car in the eyes of many, at least the Supra gives the Japanese the opportunity to compete in putting a fun driving car in my driveway once again.

EDIT: Maybe they should have just called this an MR-2! Though some would have been upset it wasn't mid-engined...
 
Watching NASCAR Xfinity Series qualifying at Daytona. Toyota has branded their entry in the series this year as the Supra. Though ofcourse due to safety factors it looks nothing like the production model.
 
I'm very disappointed in where Toyota went with this. They probably won't sell well and Toyota will say there is no demand for a sports car and say they made a wise move not to spend R&D on this. Toyota in general seems to be floundering. From unlimited budgets for cars like the LS to being behind Nissan in EVs and now this!
 
Could this be Toyotas version of the Cadillac Cimarron? A failure so epic that it winds up sending Toyota into a 20yr. tailspin that they never truly recover from?lol.

Cimarron>Supra
 
Eldorado2k said:
Could this be Toyotas version of the Cadillac Cimarron? A failure so epic that it winds up sending Toyota into a 20yr. tailspin that they never truly recover from?lol.

Cimarron>Supra
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Interesting comparison, but I don't know if I fully agree with you. If the Supra fails, only the faithful fans and the the auto enthusiast will notice. 99.99% of American drivers will never even consider the car in the first place, and probably don't even know it exists. The auto buying market as a whole doesn't car about sports cars. Toyota will continue to crank out millions of Camrys, Highlanders, Rav-4's, and Corollas. I'd be willing to bet the production of the Camry in a single day will probably be more than the best-case production run numbers for six months of the Supra. It's a hyper-niche automobile. Toyota is the #2 largest auto producer in the world and the whole reason they partnered with BMW was to reduce development costs, but also financial risk if sales don't meet expectations. If the Supra fails it will be in the auto press for a couple days and then simply become an entry in a Wikipedia page. The company will press on with barely a hick-up. A third party builds the thing in Austria, so Toyota employees won't even be effected if production ends.

The Cimarron was a terrible car based on a shockingly horrible platform even by miserable GM standards of the 80's. That platform wasn't even worthy of the Chevy badge it wore, let alone the Buick, Oldsmobile, or Cadillac. Everything about the car was bad; engine, unibody platform, interior quality, workmanship, the fact it looked a lot like the Cavalier, the whole bit.

The new Supra is a different story. Mechanically, it should be fantastic. The BMW B58 inline is a fantastic power plant. I've driven it first hand in a couple different applications and have never been disappointed by the way it delivers power or it's output. The CLAR platform used in many new BMW models has received rave reviews. Interestingly, there version of the platform used by Toyota is unique to the car since the Z4 will only by sold as a convertible. Car and Driver actually liked the dynamics new Z4 (the foundation for the Supra) better than the 718 Boxter, which is very high praise for the engine, suspension, and overall platform. Toyota commented on tuning the Supra to be even more driver focused than the GT-like Z4, so any driver should be in for a real treat.

The Cimarron was a cheap, badge engineered, turd which totally missed the traditional Caddy buyer's ideal (too small) and didn't live up to what was left of Caddy's reputation at the time. It was terrible regardless of what brand logo GM slapped on the hood and sales were tanking across all the brands. The Supra, if taken in isolation, should be a great car. Toyota's only real sin seems to be using the Supra badge. Had they called it something unique like they did with the F86 (why is that car not a Celica?), I bet the reception would have been totally different. Styling is very Japanese, which these days doesn't seem to resonate well with US customers regardless of whether it's Honda, Acura, Toyota, Nissan, Lexus, etc.
 
Desertnate said:
Interesting comparison, but I don't know if I fully agree with you. If the Supra fails, only the faithful fans and the the auto enthusiast will notice. 99.99% of American drivers will never even consider the car in the first place, and probably don't even know it exists. The auto buying market as a whole doesn't car about sports cars. Toyota will continue to crank out millions of Camrys, Highlanders, Rav-4's, and Corollas. I'd be willing to bet the production of the Camry in a single day will probably be more than the best-case production run numbers for six months of the Supra. It's a hyper-niche automobile. Toyota is the #2 largest auto producer in the world and the whole reason they partnered with BMW was to reduce development costs, but also financial risk if sales don't meet expectations. If the Supra fails it will be in the auto press for a couple days and then simply become an entry in a Wikipedia page. The company will press on with barely a hick-up. A third party builds the thing in Austria, so Toyota employees won't even be effected if production ends.

The Cimarron was a terrible car based on a shockingly horrible platform even by miserable GM standards of the 80's. That platform wasn't even worthy of the Chevy badge it wore, let alone the Buick, Oldsmobile, or Cadillac. Everything about the car was bad; engine, unibody platform, interior quality, workmanship, the fact it looked a lot like the Cavalier, the whole bit.

The new Supra is a different story. Mechanically, it should be fantastic. The BMW B58 inline is a fantastic power plant. I've driven it first hand in a couple different applications and have never been disappointed by the way it delivers power or it's output. The CLAR platform used in many new BMW models has received rave reviews. Interestingly, there version of the platform used by Toyota is unique to the car since the Z4 will only by sold as a convertible. Car and Driver actually liked the dynamics new Z4 (the foundation for the Supra) better than the 718 Boxter, which is very high praise for the engine, suspension, and overall platform. Toyota commented on tuning the Supra to be even more driver focused than the GT-like Z4, so any driver should be in for a real treat.

The Cimarron was a cheap, badge engineered, turd which totally missed the traditional Caddy buyer's ideal (too small) and didn't live up to what was left of Caddy's reputation at the time. It was terrible regardless of what brand logo GM slapped on the hood and sales were tanking across all the brands. The Supra, if taken in isolation, should be a great car. Toyota's only real sin seems to be using the Supra badge. Had they called it something unique like they did with the F86 (why is that car not a Celica?), I bet the reception would have been totally different. Styling is very Japanese, which these days doesn't seem to resonate well with US customers regardless of whether it's Honda, Acura, Toyota, Nissan, Lexus, etc.
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It was a joke...
 
Eldorado2k said:
It was a joke...
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Ahhh...the internet strikes again. Couldn't tell your tone.

It does bring up an interesting comparison though of an automaker not knowing their fan base very well. No one wanted a small, cheap Caddy. Apparently the Supra faithful don't want a car that isn't mostly JDM.
 
But just to clarify, the Cimarron wasn’t meant for the “ideal” or typical Caddy buyer. It was intended for a new breed of consumer, the car was meant to compete with smaller sporty European cars like the BMW 3, Audi 2000 [or whatever the cheap Audi was], and those type of cars. The problem was the grandsons didn’t follow their grandfathers footsteps when it came time for them to buy into the Cimarron.

The next similar failure was the Catera.

And the next simlar failure was the CTS, however this time the young people somehow bought into the idea and it turned out to be a major success. How that happened is beyond me because IMO that was a horrible car, but it played a big part [along with the Escalade] in saving Cadillac from foreseeable death in the early 2000’s.
 
RZJZA80 said:
That would be correct.
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So what becomes of the sports car market? Automakers outside of the exotics, Porsche, and BMW can't afford to go it alone any more. Is the key to not use a traditional model name, or simply not do it at all?
 
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