Tried the Big Red Sponge today...

howardm4 said:
I'm a bit surprised there is enough lubricationfor the towel w/ just the remnants of the ONR wash and a couple of spritz's of OCW
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In my experience my panels have quite a bitt if ONR left on them after a pass, so it kinda makes sense. The one spray of OCW is recommended because of it’s more viscous consistency.


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Used the Aqua sponge this evening...flawless performance

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I have it down in the wash bucket, pic tomorrow. Check the " what did you do detail related" for more details.

Pic tomorrow morning

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I picked up a BRS after watching a couple different video of Yvan using it. I have tried it once, and will give it another shot, but I’m on the fence about it. This was my process:

3 gallons of distilled water in bucket with grit guard. Soaked BRS in bucket for an hour or so. Used standard dilution ONR (1:256).
Pre-soaked car with pump sprayer, gave it several minutes to dwell. For the entire wash I used the full 1.5 liters in the Kwazar venus pump sprayer.
Soaked several towels in the bucket and removed.
Wiped lightly with the BRS.
I could still see dirt particles on horizontal panels so I used the wet towels wiping in one direction and flipping after each pass.
Dry with PFM and Gyeon silk dryers. Used ‘matador’ method of lightly dragging drying towel across horizontal surface. One pass drying. Love those towels.

Final thoughts:

Cost: To clear the grit guard took about 3 gallons of water. I used distilled, so cost was about $3. While cost really wasn’t a big issue, with a traditional GDWM (bucket of towels) rinseless I start with two gallons and have some left. The next week I can put another gallon into the same bucket, so it normally takes me about 1.5 gals on the traditional rinseless. So there is a cost factor.

I dumped out the ONR solution after the BRS wash. I know some people will leave it for the next wash, but I just can’t get my head around starting the next week’s wash with a bucket of dirty ONR solution. I know that using BRS means dipping it back into dirty ONR solution, and the chemistry of the product is designed for that, but I would rather not have more than one wash session’s worth of dirt in the bucket.

Effectiveness: I saw dirt left on panels after wiping with BRS. It has been brought up in this thread that the drying towel can absorb this just like a wet towel will with traditional (I’m defining “traditional” as the bucket of towels GDWM since that is traditional for me) rinseless. I just prefer that my drying towels function to remove the water/solution, not dirt and water/solution.

Efficiency: This was where my approach broke down. If I am going over the panel with the BRS, then going over it with a wet towel like traditional rinseless, what is the benefit of the BRS pass? I used less towels to get the job done for sure; traditional bucket of towels rinseless takes me about 10-12 towels, and after the BRS I got away with maybe 4. I was using 800 gsm white ‘rags’ not sold here, and I like the white to see how much dirt is coming off.

Final thoughts and questions. It was the efficiency factor in this process that killed the experience for me. If I’m doing a wet wipe after the BRS, then why not just wet wipe without involving the BRS step. I use more towels, but so what.

Yvan mentions that the BRS step is to spread the solution on the panel. In the Pan video they pressure washed the vehicle first, so the BRS was applying the solution. If we are pre-soaking which is what most of us do, then the solution is already on the panel. Seems to me the sole function of the BRS would be to remove dirt if the solution is already on the panel.

Dirt on drying towels. If I’m removing dirt with a MF, I make one pass before flipping towel. Doing this with a drying towel would slow down the drying process and use a lot more drying towels to get the job done. This offsets the time savings of using the BRS by itself.

Any thoughts on improvements to my process to make the BRS efficient?
 
@Rmd. Great post man. I haven’t tried the Lake Country Foam Car Wash Sponge yet, but I imagine my experience would be spot on how you just described it.
 
Huge fan of rinseless products and the philosophy behind them.

If the 1 bucket big red sponge method recommended by ONR doesn't cause scratches, what is the point in adding the needless complication of foam guns, multiple buckets, etc.? It seems to me that rinseless washes, like ONR, if anything, give a SUPERIOR result, and with less time commitment.

Another huge advantage of rinseless washes that nobody talks about is preservation. During any traditional wash, water is introduced into any panel gaps in the body, past any seals, firewall drains, etc. In cars with less than perfect rustproofing, years and years of such washes can eventually cause corrosion, even in climates with no rainfall or snow. I've heard Jay Leno mention this talking about his old cars on his Youtube show.

Another thing is that most of the scratches come from drying, which in the rinseless method is lubricated by the ONR and "substantive polymers", whatever the hell those are. Regardless, it works. The car is dried off risk-free, and without the need for a drying aid.
Minimalism is the name of the game with ONR + BRS. As a non-professional, it's very appealing to have all my wash equipment fit in just 1 bucket. And it's cheaper. And it's non-toxic.
 
c0rbin9 said:
Another huge advantage of rinseless washes that nobody talks about is preservation. During any traditional wash, water is introduced into any panel gaps in the body, past any seals, firewall drains, etc. In cars with less than perfect rustproofing, years and years of such washes can eventually cause corrosion, even in climates with no rainfall or snow.
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Get a Metro Sidekick.
 
c0rbin9 said:
Another huge advantage of rinseless washes that nobody talks about is preservation. During any traditional wash, water is introduced into any panel gaps in the body, past any seals, firewall drains, etc. In cars with less than perfect rustproofing, years and years of such washes can eventually cause corrosion, even in climates with no rainfall or snow. I've heard Jay Leno mention this talking about his old cars on his Youtube show.
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I’ve always wondered why it’s common practice to carefully wash a classic car but also common practice to regularly douse our newer cars with heaps of water.

Not to say I think anyone shouldn’t use a hose, but I’m sure those same classic cars were washed free flowing water like we wash daily drivers now.. and they were probably also daily drivers at some point, right?

Wouldn’t the same logic apply to more modern cars, even with more modern methods (I’m assuming) of rustproofing? Would my Altima not be a classic car, by definition, at 20 years of age? Wouldn’t it be prudent to practice using as little water as necessary as often as you can for preservation sake?

Maybe I wanna drive my Altima to cars and coffee in 2032 and show off my sweet classic ride


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I think I paid the full $25 for my BRS.

I wish I would have bought 5,16 x 16 TRC Eagles instead. I actually find the Eagles useful.
 
For what it's worth, I've heard Yvan Lacroix mention that they tested every single sponge on the market to find the right material for the BRS. Optimum seems to feel it makes a difference. As I said previously, I had good results with the BRS, but personally prefer to use multiple towels.
 
So I just got back from doing a Rinsless with the brs and this time had much better results. Car was slightly dirty, the perfect candidate for a rinseless wash. Barely any dirt on drying towels and used optimum car wax while drying. View attachment 62362

I believe that my last attempt was on a car that was just too dirty. I think I found the limit for a rinseless wash.


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Rmd said:
Dry with PFM and Gyeon silk dryers. Used ‘matador’ method of lightly dragging drying towel across horizontal surface. One pass drying. Love those towels.
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The Gyeons are GREAT for that matador style of drying. I like that style very much


Rmd said:
Final thoughts:

Cost: To clear the grit guard took about 3 gallons of water. I used distilled, so cost was about $3. While cost really wasn’t a big issue, with a traditional GDWM (bucket of towels) rinseless I start with two gallons and have some left. The next week I can put another gallon into the same bucket, so it normally takes me about 1.5 gals on the traditional rinseless. So there is a cost factor.
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Same here. I don't like that the GG takes up so much water to clear. TheGuz shaved a bit off the bottom of his to go around that "issue." - And i rather like using smaller 2 (or is it 2.5) gallon buckets for my rinseless washing. For that reason, I would prefer GDWM. But BRS and GG has come into play (more later).

Rmd said:
It has been brought up in this thread that the drying towel can absorb this just like a wet towel
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That bugs me. I would NOT like to have dirt transfer to my drying towels.

Rmd said:
Final thoughts and questions. It was the efficiency factor in this process that killed the experience for me. If I’m doing a wet wipe after the BRS, then why not just wet wipe without involving the BRS step. I use more towels, but so what.

...

Any thoughts on improvements to my process to make the BRS efficient?
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For me, on a non-coated, daily driven, product test vehicle whose clear coat is failing....I use the BRS. 5 gallon bucket with Grit Guard. I use a bit more pressure than i would use on a cleaner car and using the GDWM. My wife's Kia gets the better treatment, using the latter.

On the daily driver, using the BRS, I did find that I save a decent amount of time. The caveat is that I'm not as gentle or as careful when washing this way. When I go to wipe dry, i noticed I don't have dirt transfer onto the towels (unless I missed a spot when washing - blame those rush jobs at night). I haven't tested for marring, though. Perhaps some day, I will.

Aside from that, RMD, I do like your process. I would have suggested blow-drying the vehicle, but then you wouldn't have the drying towel to get the dirt left behind.
 
I know some people will leave it for the next wash, but I just can’t get my head around starting the next week’s wash with a bucket of dirty ONR solution. I know that using BRS means dipping it back into dirty ONR solution, and the chemistry of the product is designed for that, but I would rather not have more than one wash session’s worth of dirt in the bucket.
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I've got about 6 washes into my current solution, and I could probably manage a couple more depending on the cars. I will always encourage people to embrace new techniques and technologies with an open, albeit objective, mind. I think it's important for people to recognize their own cognitive biases, and make efforts to rectify them. The stigma that a dirty bucket will cause more scratches is very archaic to me if we're talking about ONR. The answer is undoubtedly much more nuanced than that.

This isn't meant to be an argumentative statement if that's how it comes across, just my thoughts. I'm a big fan of jumping right in and trying something the way the manufacturer recommends, because if I have to alter the process a great deal after trying something, it likely isn't for me.

This was where my approach broke down. If I am going over the panel with the BRS, then going over it with a wet towel like traditional rinseless, what is the benefit of the BRS pass? I used less towels to get the job done for sure; traditional bucket of towels rinseless takes me about 10-12 towels, and after the BRS I got away with maybe 4. I was using 800 gsm white ‘rags’ not sold here, and I like the white to see how much dirt is coming off.
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In my experience I've gotten away with just two 16x16 towels to do all my drying (full disclosure: last couple panels take a couple more wipes with my final buff towel.) The damp towel is what I use to soak up the bulk of the solution/any potential dirt off of the panel. I find doing a rinseless wash, no matter what I can't get by with just one waffle weave towel. There's too much on the surface, and after the hood, windshield, roof, back window, and trunk lid, the towel is just about done for.

Using a damp towel, I can stretch just one other 16x16 (350gsm) towel far enough to dry the entire car without any issues at all. My damp towel does pick up some dirt sometimes, and if I run out of clean sides, I just put it into the bucket so I can agitate it, and wring it back out. That might make some people cringe, but I admit I have complete faith that ONR will work. The dirt showing up on a drying towel, especially for a pass with a damp towel (where both the media and the panel are saturated with solution) is a complete non issue in my mind.

It's also worth pointing out that the damp towel really is wrung out as tightly as I can possibly wring it out, and I also practiced this method when using the GDWM. After I'd used all the sides of my towel, I'd turn it to the low nap side, wring it out, and do the exact same damp pass to make drying easier.

If I’m doing a wet wipe after the BRS, then why not just wet wipe without involving the BRS step. I use more towels, but so what.
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I think this is one of those situations where it's really going to come down to your preference. If you enjoy using the GDWM, I really can't see any objective reason for you to quit using it in favor of the BRS.

I am growing to like my BRS more each time I use it, but I'm willing to admit it doesn't clean any better than a towel does. In some cases i'd argue a towel is more thorough because it'll conform to a panel easier and fish dirt out of crevices where the sponge might struggle. I simply like having the solution mixed up and ready to go, I like only needing to grab 2-3 towels (3rd if I plan on wiping out my door jambs that wash, Just a generic low GSM black towel) instead of a dozen, I enjoy not completely trashing my towels even though I use cheap ones, I just overall enjoy the user experience of the sponge.

Any thoughts on improvements to my process to make the BRS efficient?
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What I've settled on is: Pre-soak/pre-rinse (optional) -> BRS pass -> Spray D156 onto damp towel and make my first pass -> go over the panel with my final towel I'm using to dry.
 
I have a random question about the process of using the Big Red Sponge and ONR.


After you are done with the wash, and the car is dried, and you are saving your ONR/Wash bucket combo for the next wash....what do you do with the BRS??

Do you leave it in the ONR wash bucket to just soak? If so, how long can you leave it in the solution without any ill effects?
Do you rinse it off with water and place it on the shelf to dry for the next time?
Do you just wring it out without rinsing?


Is there really even a correct answer to this?
 
Whacky said:
I have a random question about the process of using the Big Red Sponge and ONR.

After you are done with the wash, car is dried, and you are saving your ONR/Wash bucket combo for the next wash....what do you do with the BRS??

Do you leave it in the ONR wash bucket to just soak? If so, how long can you leave it in the solution without any ill effects?

Do you rinse it off with water and place it on the shelf? Do you just wring it out without rinseing?

Is there a correct answer to this?



H
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Optimum recommends keeping the sponge in ONR at all times, as far as I know.


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Calendyr said:
I have never been sold on the big red sponge either. I don't want to use sponges on cars. I use the Garry Dean method : (Pre-treat the pannel with a spray of detailer strenght ONR, use about 6 microfiber towels in the solution bucket and discard each towel after it gets dirty on all 4 sides). I think this method is pretty safe, never noticed major dirt in my drying towel.
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^^ this. I use between 4-6 total including one as my final wipe down. If the vehicle is dirty I may go to 8 total. 480+gsm work great.
 
Eldorado2k said:
Yes it is, and IMO the conventional car wash soap and process is far safer and superior vs. the rinseless soap and method. Why do I say that? Because if we were to make things equal, meaning we get to wash a full on dirty vehicle and give it a normL pre rinse, then we take a mitt from a bucket full of suds, what’s our normL safe and effective method? Well we can go back and forth and even overlap our stokes over the paint in most cases as long as we’re not heavy handed and not inflict swirls.

On the other hand, if we were to pull a towel, sponge, or even the same kind of mitt we used with the bucket method, how would we go about the agitation? We surely wouldn’t be as liberal with the back & forth stuff and we all know it.. Instead we’d make sure to go in 1 straight line and flip the wash media before attempting to the next swipe on the panel.

I’m not directing this comment towards anyone in particular, but more so the to the people who say that rinseless is safer than conventional car soap.
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IMO and experience both are safe when done correctly. Being in Ohio with tons of salt and sand being used and coating our vehicles, I feel I have a great test-bed to show how Rinseless with the GD Method is safe. Both our vehicles are perfect and I know it's because of the technique used more than anything. When I use the GD Method, there's little pressure used and I "roll" the end of the MF Towel so that when I'm wiping the dirt-line that appears is wider than most. FWIW when I bucket wash in the summer in traditional wash method, I don't "agitate" or wipe back and forth.

Here's one of rags folded. Each side allows for two passes. It's folded 8 times allowing for 16 passes with a clean edge thus when I'm done the rags are pretty dirty as I don't waste much surface area on them. They key is to 'load-up' the surface with plenty of solution. Combined with a very soaked up rag, the water that releases combined with what's on the panel, literally flows the water and dirt off the car.

original.jpg



Here's an example of what we deal with here and I have no problem with rinseless washes on it.

original.jpg
 
Whacky said:
After you are done with the wash, and the car is dried, and you are saving your ONR/Wash bucket combo for the next wash....what do you do with the BRS??

Do you leave it in the ONR wash bucket to just soak? If so, how long can you leave it in the solution without any ill effects?
Do you rinse it off with water and place it on the shelf to dry for the next time?
Do you just wring it out without rinsing?


Is there really even a correct answer to this?
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Whacky - welcome to AGO!

After I wash with ONR and the BRS, I dump out the used solution (not everyone does this, but it is my preference) and refill my bucket with 3 fresh gallons of ONR. I keep the BRS soaking in the bucket with the fresh ONR so it remains soft and pliable. In theory this should help reduce the chance of scratching and marring the next time you rinseless wash with the BRS.
 
One thing to mention is that cleaning the BRS with an APC and flushing it out is a good way to maintain it every so often.
 
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