Turtle Wax Hybrid Spray Coating - Are the reviews misleading?

[leif20]

A lack of durability from this product has nothing to do with application and everything to do with how Turtle Wax formulated the product. I can say this with confidence because the main solvent is IPA. Nothing that only requires IPA to keep it liquid will provide you with anything more durable than your typical spray wax. If you like something sprayed that is also easy application and lasts longer, I would highly recommend Meguiar's D156.

Cquartz Uk 3.0 is my go to for a ceramic coating. Good price, and good performance. It pretty much fits what I'm looking for in a coating. And truth be told, there's a few professional level coatings that wish they were Cquartz UK 3.0.

I don't use products like Hydro Blue or etc will do the same thing a traffic cone will do for a speeding car with a drunk driver behind the wheel as it will do for the road salt. There's something there but that drunk driver is still going right through. When it's all said and done, and the ambulances have come and gone, no one will remember that there ever was a safety cone there in the first place.

Thanks for the additional tips, although that got dark quite quickly...


Let me rephrase your last few posts as a way of helping to understand this stuff a bit more. This has to do with the 'chemistry' of the ceramic sprays.

For any product on the market we can look at the SDS to see chemical breakdown. The solution carries the active ingredients, and solvent helps to flash the product on to the paint surface. TW uses IPA as the only solvent. A more legit coating's solvents are a number of volatile HC's and distillates, and the good bonding agents are usually quite toxic. The issue with TW products is that they don't contain anything that is used as a bonding agent for a ceramic (SiO2 or SiC) molecule. They are using a kind of polymer that does not require bonding and carrying agents, whereas a true ceramic does.

The main difference to higher quality coatings is the carrier/bonding solution that holds the type of protection they use (such as SiO2, SiC, PDMS, whatever) soluble, all mixed together, usually in liquid form. This allows the protection agent to bond onto the paint as well as completely evaporate into the air at the same time. This chemistry is what you pay for with a true coating.

As far as the active protection, siloxane is the molecule that carries the ceramic protection and the end result is either SiC or SiO2 on the paint. The important thing here is how much of these end up on the paint. The ceramic consumer sprays do not have strong enough solvents to deposit a significant concentration of the solution on the paint, which is why they recommend multiple applications. On the other hand, better solutions have 'thicker' molecules with more -SiO2 functional groups on the molecule, needing better solvents. These coatings deposit molecules that have significant molecular weight and physical properties, which is why they form layers on the paint that would need to be compounded or even sanded off. The cheaper 'coating sprays' can not claim this because the solution would be too expensive and not support spray application.

Comparing to the seal and shine, SNS has has a strong solvent that deposits the Polydimethylsiloxane (PDMS) onto the surface, which is a strong and fairly durable polymer. This and all the other sprays do not form a true 'coating' in any meaningful sense of the word.

Do you think this is a fair summary?



So, how is it that IPA won't provide a good enough solution to carry a proper ceramic concentration?

 

[acuRAS82]

^^ @leif20, If you are right or even partially right, I commend you for taking the time to understand and then write it out for lesser minds like my own to further understand. You and WillSport3 are providing very interesting perspectives about the carriers that had never occurred to me before WillSport3 started explaining it. And the further simplification/rewording from you only helps me understand better.

And if you got some of the above incorrect, I still commend you because it makes a lot of sense anyways and will have been a heck of guess.

 

[WillSports3]

You are mostly correct. Let me respond to you in red just to make it easier.

Thanks for the additional tips, although that got dark quite quickly...


Let me rephrase your last few posts as a way of helping to understand this stuff a bit more. This has to do with the 'chemistry' of the ceramic sprays.

For any product on the market we can look at the SDS to see chemical breakdown. The solution carries the active ingredients, and solvent helps to flash the product on to the paint surface. TW uses IPA as the only solvent. A more legit coating's solvents are a number of volatile HC's and distillates, and the good bonding agents are usually quite toxic. The issue with TW products is that they don't contain anything that is used as a bonding agent for a ceramic (SiO2 or SiC) molecule. They are using a kind of polymer that does not require bonding and carrying agents, whereas a true ceramic does.

Sort of. I would be surprised if they had anything that was strong enough to be compared to any ceramic molecule

The main difference to higher quality coatings is the carrier/bonding solution that holds the type of protection they use (such as SiO2, SiC, PDMS, whatever) soluble, all mixed together, usually in liquid form. This allows the protection agent to bond onto the paint as well as completely evaporate into the air at the same time. This chemistry is what you pay for with a true coating.

Sort of, yes. Usually the carrier and the bonding solution are separate, and the most expensive parts of any SiO2 coatings. SiC coatings are a whole different story because SiC is not an existing product. SiC is formed when you apply to the clearcoat with the coating itself and a chemical reaction takes place that involves the bonding agent and the carrier solvents to take the initial liquid that gets applied on and it chemically changes into SiC. SiC is great but has it's own problems.

As far as the active protection, siloxane is the molecule that carries the ceramic protection and the end result is either SiC or SiO2 on the paint. The important thing here is how much of these end up on the paint. The ceramic consumer sprays do not have strong enough solvents to deposit a significant concentration of the solution on the paint, which is why they recommend multiple applications. On the other hand, better solutions have 'thicker' molecules with more -SiO2 functional groups on the molecule, needing better solvents. These coatings deposit molecules that have significant molecular weight and physical properties, which is why they form layers on the paint that would need to be compounded or even sanded off. The cheaper 'coating sprays' can not claim this because the solution would be too expensive and not support spray application.

Siloxane is not a specific molecule, its like saying polymer. For example Cquartz UK has three different blends of siloxane behind their coating. Most ceramic consumer sprays do not contain anything ceramic at all. My favourite example is PAM cooking spray. It contains PDMS. But it's not a ceramic spray. It's just cooking oil. PDMS is used to prevent foaming in PAM. Having PDMS doesn't make something ceramic. It's also not thicker molecules per say, rather it's that a specific resin layer holds a specific base level of siloxane that could be multi-siloxane component that itself has a specific thickness. Coating thickness only matters on one aspect and honestly, anything that claims more than 1 or 1.5 micron is not relevant or true. A lot will claim 2 micron layer but after about 30 days to full hardness, it's shrunk to sub micron thickness.

Comparing to the seal and shine, SNS has has a strong solvent that deposits the Polydimethylsiloxane (PDMS) onto the surface, which is a strong and fairly durable polymer. This and all the other sprays do not form a true 'coating' in any meaningful sense of the word.
Yes and no. SNS and Spray Coating are both basically just polymer spray sealants. Kind of like Chemical Guys synthetic detailers.

Do you think this is a fair summary?



So, how is it that IPA won't provide a good enough solution to carry a proper ceramic concentration?
The reason is not that it won't provide a good enough solution to carry a proper ceramic concentration. It's that IPA is not powerful enough to keep a true SiO2 (I hate the word ceramic to be honest because it's meaningless." emulsion with bonding agent in it. Case and point, if you spray IPA onto a still wet layer of CQuartz UK, see what it does. It doesn't do anything, you just still buff the residue off. Also no coatings require sanding to remove. I know Gtechniq Crystal Serum Light claims it but it only needs sanding when you leave a massive high spot. The reason is because it's very dense and the base layer is thick hence that's the reason why.

 

[agarabaghi]

In terms of compounding and not needing to compound, a chemical break down of the item in comparison might give some hints and be revealing.

Turtle Wax Hybrid Spray Coating uses IPA as the only solvent in the product.
By comparison, Reload has two different kinds of siloxane, naptha, methanol, benzyl benzoate, 1-2-4 Trimethylbenzene, as well as Orange Oil.
Meguiar's Ceramic Spray Wax uses ethoxylated C12-16 Alcohols, which is used as an emulsion for water and an oily substance to combine them together effectively.

Compared to Cquartz UK, it's main solvents are Nonane, naptha, methanol and Trimethylbenzen and it contains multiple forms of organic siloxane.
Compare that to GTechniq Crystal Serum (Pro version) It uses a proprietery hydrotreated light distillate, which is essentially a petroleum distillate as the solvent in it. Does a similar job to the methanol, naptha, nonane, methanol and trimethylbenzene as Cquartz UK. All very strong solvents, hence the jet fuel smell when you open the bottle.

In comparison to two similar products as well as two true coatings, Turtle Wax Hybrid Spray Coating does not contain a high enough percentage of ceramic anything.

To give an example of a more "green" and "solvent free" product, IGL Kenzo contains smoothing agents at the very least in the form of Triethoxy-n-octylsilane and 3-Glycidyloxypropyltrimethoxysilane as a bonding agent.

The Hybrid Spray Coating, judging by it's chemical solvents, lacks anything that is used as a bonding agent for true ceramic (whether SiO2 or SiC) coverage. It is most likely, made up of very strong polymers with a small amount of SiO2 that relies on the polymer of choice to crosslink and bond to the paint itself. This is kind of revealed to be most likely as they state that two applications will leave you a longer period of protection. That is only likely if no strong solvents are involved. Essentially, they are using a kind of polymer that does not require a smoothing agent or a bonding agent directly to bond onto paint, especially by their choice of carrier solvent as IPA.

In comparison to their ICE Spray Wax, it's water, Polydimethylsiloxane and Carnauba in emulsion form (already mixed with smoothing agents and solvents).
For seal and shine, they use polydimethylsiloxane and aocohol ethoxylates as the solvent/smoothing agent.

Chemically, the two are different in the sense (it seems from the chemicals used) that the polymers in Ceramic Spray Coating has a very low percentage of actual ceramic molecules involved, and needs a curing time due to the crosslinking effects of those polymers.
Seal N Shine has a strong solvent that deposits the PDMS onto the surface. PDMS doesn't really require curing time, it's just on or not.

Judging from that, I wouldn't call this a coating at all but a very economical but effective sealant.

How would you compare to this to something like Gyeon Can Coat, which i dont personally consider it to be a true long term coating, but its easy application and ability to correct high spots and streaks make it easy for a DIY with not the best setup. I decided to give the TW Ceramic Spray Coating a try on the boat as it is much easier to apply than can coating, along with minimal prep. How is the chemical break down of Can Coat compared to TW?

 

[acuRAS82]

^^ call him out like this: @WillSports3