Want to polish customer cars without Paint gauge, Advice ?

sasson

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Hello, After reading again on Polishers and Polishing, I see again I need to buy myself a few things.
I am currently "Out of cash", so I will have to stay with what I have for now.
My question is, If I do want to polish Cars WITHOUT checking them with a paint gauge ( Witch I don't have ), what the best things to do to prevent removing the last remains of the paint ( if the paint depth is low ).
What should I ask or say to the customer to know if I should or shouldn't polish their car?

Lets say My customer has a new car for 2 years, he cleans it every now and then, car in good condition but has swirls marks, ( clean with Cleaning tunnel machine ).

How could I know if the paint is in good condition?
should I tell me customers that if the paint is in bad condition and I polish the paint it could harm it ?
Should I ask the customer a few questions before I polish no matter how new or old the car is ?
Is there anything I could use or do to know if it's safe to polish a car?

Thank you, I need help here, I am sure lots of you guys don't have a paint gauge and have a trick or two to know?
Thanks again!
 
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If you are working on cars that are a few years old and have never been machine polished you should be OK. I sometimes worry when I get a call to "fix" what some other detailer did. I don't have any idea what he did, just the end result. Most of my customers buy new cars every few years so I have no concerns. I only detail on the side so if any car looks questionable I just share my concerns with the customer and take a pass on the job. Always use the least aggressive approach possible. Not every car needs a 3 step compound/polish/wax job. You can get nice results with the better AIO products.
 
I don't have one yet, but when the tax return comes you can bet I will have one. What I do is go over the car with the customer right now mainly friends, look at all the imperfections, scratches, edges of hood, A post, doors the list goes on.

ask if the car has ever been repainted and if you can talk with the painter to see what paint he or she used. just cover your rear basically.

Now what I use is UC by megs and UP for Minor scratches with orange and white LC 5.5 foam pad. You will know when to walk away from a job it beyond repair ....... and ALWAYS I mean ALWAYS do a test spot before you do anything else, do it with the customer beside you to see the results. Hopes this helps ... also see if you have any AG members close by to help out.
 
Thickenss

I think paint thickness gauges are a nice tool to have but unless you're willing to shell out some serious money you won't be able to accurately measure the actual clear coat.

Most paint thinness gauges measure the total paint thickness and to buy one that can actually measure just the clear plan on shelling out $2500 or so.

Lets talk a little about automotive paint....

Automotive Paint

Over the years automotive manufactures have been on a quest to lower manufacturing cost and just one of those areas is paint. By doing so, these improvements translate directly to their bottom line as profits.

The actual film thickness of paint is what I call SCARY THIN, meaning it doesn’t take much effort to accidentally sand or compound through a layer. A layer of paint is so thin today it’s measured in microns rather than thousands of an inch but unlike paint used years ago the paints today are usually hard and resilient.


Corrosion


How many of you can remember the days when a panel on a brand new car would show sighs of rust or corrosion in the first 2 years? You don’t have to go that far back because this was pretty much the norm in the 70’s and 80’s.

To combat this, car manufactures teamed up with paint suppliers like DuPont to develop coatings and processes to greatly reduce or eliminate corrosion and rust through.


Microns


Microns are typically associated with either of the two following symbols; µ or µm

Just how big or small is a micron? 0.001mm, or about 0.000039in

To illustrate this lets put this in perspective by comparing a known and relate it to microns. On average, a human hair is about 100 microns or 100µm.

1µ = 0.00003937in
10µ = 0.0003937in
100µ = 0.003937in

Now that we know how think a human hair is, see how it compares to the paint film thickness on most cars today....It's thicker than any individual coating applied and might be equal to all of the coating thicknesses combined! :eek:


Paint Application

Automotive paint is applied in layers and each one is designed to to work with out bond to the previous later. Today protective coating and paint layers can total 5 or more and at varying thicknesses. The photo below illustrates not only the coating but the average film thickness....

Layer03.jpg



  1. Phosphate - 1µ or 0.00003937in
  2. Electrocoat or E-Coat - 25µ or 0.0009843in
  3. Primer - 25µ or 0.0009843in
  4. Base or Color Coat - 20µ or 0.0007874in
  5. Clear Coat - 50µ = 0.001969in

Phosphate

Phosphate coatings offer excellent corrosion resistance. These coatings are usually applied to carbon steel, low-alloy steel, and cast iron. Phosphate coatings are most often applied by either spraying or immersing the substrate into a solution of dilute phosphoric acid combined with other chemicals that assist in the coating process.


Electrocoat or E-Coat


An unfinished panel is immersed in a bath containing the electrophoretic paint emulsion, and then an electric current is passed through both the product and the emulsion. The paint particles that are in contact with the product adhere to the surface, building up an electrically insulating layer thus improving the corrosion resistance of the metal..

If you look hard enough on You-Tube I'm sure you'll find a factory video showing the frame and body of a car being submerged in a bath to effectively these coating in every nook and cranny.

Primer, base coat and clear coat are pretty self explanatory so I won't go into detail.

Steel Thickness

The thickness of the sheet steel that makes up the majority of cars today has over the years become thinner and thinner. Some of this initiative is related to the overall weight but also fall right in line with lowering costs of raw materials.

What body and paint shops typically see in a single stage paint job.

In this photo you'll see the typical finish layers applied at the factory. Many times though shops uncover damage and additional paint repair that can add several subsequent layers that must be dealt with properly.

Layer02.jpg



This is a great example to illustrate different types of surface defects and their relative size when compared to one another.


Layers.jpg



Paint is only so thick. If you're using a heavy cut pad and an aggressive compound on a dual action polisher and hold it in one spot just a little too long what do you think will happen? Sand Through


Paint in the doorjamb area is usually thinner so sometimes this information can be used as a gauge. Test several spots on a panel.


Condition

First wash the car or stuck then inspect the paint. You're looking for swirls, scratches, thinning, clear-coat failure. acid etching.

Make careful notes and even take photos of suspect areas and review them with the customer prior to starting.

Caution

The paint is always just a bit thinner toward the edge and sharp creases or body likes. Body lines are more than cosmetic designs. These beauty lines are call metal forming and greatly strengthen the panel which in tern make it very hard to deflect or flex..

Recommendations

Try not to become terrified, paint polishing is very easy to do and if using a dual action polisher it's nearly impossible to inflict additional damage.

  1. On a daily driver don't promise perfection
  2. Use 5 1/2" pads and appropriate backing plate
  3. Begin using a less aggressive pad and polish
  4. Go slow and don't rush
  5. Perform 3 sectional passes then inspect your progress
I hope this helps a little.....
 
+1 on what has been said already

Plus you could also engage in a conversation with the prospective customer to try and establish if they are aware of the vehicles history in terms of it having been machine polished previously.

This may provide you with the necessary forewarning that someone else may have removed a substantial amount of clear coat.

Also, the combination of tool (rotary or DA), pads, product and paint type (hard/soft) will influence just how much clear coat you will remove when correcting the paint.

Although it is not a guarantee by any stretch of the imagination, if you are at least using a DA and start with the least aggressive method/combination first, and don't try and target absolute correction (especially on a Daily Driver), there is some element of 'safety' on your side.

I too do not own a PTG (the cost to land one here in South Africa is simply ludicrous) and am constantly aware of the risk of a burn through, so make sure you tape up raise edges where possible and rather be overly cautious in your approach.

If you customer is 'uneducated' - and I say that with all due respect - they will probably know that they want their car shiny, but do not know HOW you make it shine, and so by giving it a decent wash, removing bonded and embedded contaminants, and doing a AIO 'polish', you could provide them with a very shiny car despite only having removed minimal clear coat (with the AIO) and not actually having removed all the swirl marks.
 
BobbyG,

Fantastic post - this one's going in my binder. Very informative, educational and all in one place. Woo!

:applause::applause:
 
ask if the car has ever been repainted

▲Top grade advice here▲ and quiz them.....any fender benders? Has any section anywhere ever been repainted?
 
I am sure lots of you guys don't have a paint gauge and have a trick or two to know?
Thanks again!


First, match your services to your customer, like Mike aka rustytruck said,


Not every car needs a 3 step compound/polish/wax job.



Read my article here,

A few tips on starting a part-time detailing business
Match your services to your customer





I taught the principal of this article at Mobil Tech Expo this year and it was very popular. Renny Doyle, Jason Rose and myself all state the same idea in Renny's book, How to start a home-based car detailing business. None of us consulted each other on what we were going to write. I think most people would agree that advice on detailing cars from Renny and Jason is valuable.

Jason and I were asked to write a section in the book stating what we would do different if we could go back in time or to help people getting into the business and we all said was the same thing in our own way and that was to NOT get caught up in what Renny calls, Shinitus, that is doing what I call show car detailing or multiple-step detailing on daily drivers.

Match your services to your customer and for most people that means using a one-step cleaner/wax and do one machine step to the paint. This was also a class I taught at Mobil Tech Expo this year and also very popular. Here's an example...

How to use a one-step cleaner/wax to maximize profits


In all my detailing bootcamp classes and at some of my Mobil Tech Classes I start my Power Point Presentations out the same way and what I teach people to do goes against what everyone else always teaches.

Everyone that I've ever worked for or around teaches people that the first thing to do before detailing a car is to,


Evaluate the condition of the vehicle


That makes sense, simple sense. I teach this,


Evaluate the customer

First, there are some people you can never please and you want to recognize these people and choose NOT to detail their car. As I always say in my classes,

Let someone else have the blessing



After you evaluate the person and decide that "yes" they are of good character and have reasonable expectations, THEN...

Evaluate the condition of the vehicle


Then use your Vehicle Inspection Form and WITH the customer walk around the car inspecting the condition and educating your customer at the same time. For everyone waiting for my newest VIF hang tight, I've been a little busy.


Match your services to your customer
IF the vehicle in question is a daily driver and filled with swirls, don't decide for the customer to create a show car finish, instead educate them and give them the option of a thorough job using a one-step cleaner/wax or if they understand they now have to TAKE CARE OF THEIR CAR then you can explain the more advanced correction step you can do but these take more time, products, pads and skill and this will accordingly increase the price of the job.

Let them decide. Let them tell you how you can make them happy.



Hope that helps a little...


:)
 
My question is, If I do want to polish Cars WITHOUT checking them with a paint gauge

What should I ask or say to the customer

Lets say My customer

should I tell me customers

Should I ask the customer a few questions before I polish

Thank you, I need help here, I am sure lots of you guys don't have a paint gauge and have a trick or two to know?
Thanks again!

Besides the excellent information already given by AGO members/staff...
I'm going to venture into the realm of the Customers you're talking about.

Having a bona fide "Detailing Business" entails having the equipment to safely ensure the Customers' vehicles
will receive the: Best-of-Care...while you're using your best-detailing-practices.

Indeed...
The initial outlay for some detailing equipment may be expensive...Consider it as: Additional Insurance
Often all it takes is one mishap---and down the drain the Business could be headed.


I'll say:
-Be smart...Do your research on paint-systems
-Be careful (very critical aspect)...Don't always rely on 'Lady Luck'

Yes...I've heard:
Being lucky doesn't hurt...I've been a: luck-recipient myself.

But as R. E. Shay has been quoted:
"Depend on the rabbit's foot if you will, but remember it didn't work for the rabbit".


Then again...What do I know about Luck?

To paraphrase:
"I've had bad luck with both my wives. The first one left me and the second one won't"!!

Bob
 
Thickenss


I hope this helps a little.....

A little? You Helped me VERY Much, Thanks for this Great info...
I appriciate your commend, I am sure it took you a while to write it...
Wow.. :wow::wow: JUST thank you very much! you helped me BY FAR then what I was thinking of getting on this thread... :dblthumb2:

Thank YOU! :bowdown:

:applause::applause::applause::applause::applause::applause::applause::applause:
 
First, match your services to your customer, like Mike aka rustytruck said,


Not every car needs a 3 step compound/polish/wax job.



Read my article here,

A few tips on starting a part-time detailing business
Match your services to your customer





I taught the principal of this article at Mobil Tech Expo this year and it was very popular. Renny Doyle, Jason Rose and myself all state the same idea in Renny's book, How to start a home-based car detailing business. None of us consulted each other on what we were going to write. I think most people would agree that advice on detailing cars from Renny and Jason is valuable.

Jason and I were asked to write a section in the book stating what we would do different if we could go back in time or to help people getting into the business and we all said was the same thing in our own way and that was to NOT get caught up in what Renny calls, Shinitus, that is doing what I call show car detailing or multiple-step detailing on daily drivers.

Match your services to your customer and for most people that means using a one-step cleaner/wax and do one machine step to the paint. This was also a class I taught at Mobil Tech Expo this year and also very popular. Here's an example...

How to use a one-step cleaner/wax to maximize profits


In all my detailing bootcamp classes and at some of my Mobil Tech Classes I start my Power Point Presentations out the same way and what I teach people to do goes against what everyone else always teaches.

Everyone that I've ever worked for or around teaches people that the first thing to do before detailing a car is to,


Evaluate the condition of the vehicle


That makes sense, simple sense. I teach this,


Evaluate the customer

First, there are some people you can never please and you want to recognize these people and choose NOT to detail their car. As I always say in my classes,

Let someone else have the blessing



After you evaluate the person and decide that "yes" they are of good character and have reasonable expectations, THEN...

Evaluate the condition of the vehicle


Then use your Vehicle Inspection Form and WITH the customer walk around the car inspecting the condition and educating your customer at the same time. For everyone waiting for my newest VIF hang tight, I've been a little busy.


Match your services to your customer
IF the vehicle in question is a daily driver and filled with swirls, don't decide for the customer to create a show car finish, instead educate them and give them the option of a thorough job using a one-step cleaner/wax or if they understand they now have to TAKE CARE OF THEIR CAR then you can explain the more advanced correction step you can do but these take more time, products, pads and skill and this will accordingly increase the price of the job.

Let them decide. Let them tell you how you can make them happy.



Hope that helps a little...


:)

Great Advice mike, Thank you once again :xyxthumbs:
Great knowledge comes from great people, Hope to see you one day on your detailing boot camp~! :buffing:
 
Just remember, you're detailing for the client, not your ego, the only thing that matters is if the client is happy with your work.
 
It's easy being part of the solution...thanks everyone...:props:
 
BobbyG,

Fantastic post - this one's going in my binder. Very informative, educational and all in one place. Woo!

:applause::applause:

:iagree:


Bobby, Bobby, Bobby, Bobby.... (as they all chant in unision):wave:

Just remember, you're detailing for the client, not your ego, the only thing that matters is if the client is happy with your work.

And there ya' go, but just remember, the client may sometimes have unrealistic expectations. (Or just not know any better.) It's up to you to analyze the situation and come to a solution that benefits the both of you. ;)
 
Just remember, you're detailing for the client, not your ego, the only thing that matters is if the client is happy with your work.

:iagree:

How many times we all lost sight of reality when personal perfection becomes or goal....
 
A little? You Helped me VERY Much, Thanks for this Great info...
I appriciate your commend, I am sure it took you a while to write it...
Wow.. :wow::wow: JUST thank you very much! you helped me BY FAR then what I was thinking of getting on this thread... :dblthumb2:

Thank YOU! :bowdown:

:applause::applause::applause::applause::applause::applause::applause::applause:

You're very welcome!

It 4 days 18 hours and 32 minutes to write this......NOT...:laughing:

It does take a little time especially searching for just the right photo to accurately illustrate my point.

I'm glad I could help....:props:
 
"Then use your Vehicle Inspection Form and WITH the customer walk around the car inspecting the condition and educating your customer at the same time. For everyone waiting for my newest VIF hang tight, I've been a little busy."

Where can i get your old one ?
 
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