Dogfather
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- Sep 7, 2012
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Very interesting. In my situation I now think even after six mos. my car still had more sealant than Dawn could handle.
Washing with Dawn
- Thread starter runrun411
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Very interesting. In my situation I now think even after six mos. my car still had more sealant than Dawn could handle.
ScottB
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- Mar 3, 2006
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I have never seen any formal proof that Dawn removes any/all/some of a well cured paint sealant. It does appear to remove the beading ability of carnauba waxes, not sure if that means it removed it all.
Leave dishwashing liquid in the home, there is a reason Dawn doesn't relabel it and place on the car wash aisle at Walmart. Look to products like paint cleaners, and polishes to properly remove old wax and sealants. There are even stripper products from Griots and others as well.
Leave dishwashing liquid in the home, there is a reason Dawn doesn't relabel it and place on the car wash aisle at Walmart. Look to products like paint cleaners, and polishes to properly remove old wax and sealants. There are even stripper products from Griots and others as well.
The two links you give appear to refer to very different products. The initial product is a highly alkaline and potentially corrosive degreaser. If you were to put this into a basin and handwash your dishes, you would likely have significant skin irritation and a maybe even a persistent rash. The second bit of information very clearly refers to a product that would be safe for application in this way - in contrast to the first product which has a significant solvent proportion and alkalinity provider, the latter is almost entirely surfactant based and would be not a million miles away from a shower gel or body shampoo.
The first product would not be at all good for an LSP but this is not really a dishwashing liquid (well, it could be, but it would be for machine or automatic use only). The second is the product type I refer to. The ethanol present will certainly be low quantity (it is unlikely it would be more than a couple of percent, so a tiny fraction of a percent by the time you dilute it 100:1 or more in a wash bucket).
Not trying to speak for Mr. Megane...But:
I've noticed over the years that: "Across the pond folks" have a different meaning for Washing-up-liquids (WUL's).
Over there, one of the better known dishwashing-detergents/WUL's is Fairy Washing Up Liquid...
{Whereas, in the USA...Dawn is one of the more recognizable dishwashing-detergents/WUL's.}
There are many, many, many more dishwashing-cleaning-products
available around the World labeled as: Washing Up Liquids.
Bob
As above, one of the two products which was noted would be equivalent to our 'fairy liquid'. What I mean by washing up liquid will be a skin safe surfactant blend which is used in a wash basin for manual cleaning of dishes. It will have a mild pH. Automatic dishwashing products will be much more aggressive and totally unsafe for skin contact, often these will be caustic soda based.
So if by 'Dawn', you are referring to a product for ADW use only, high pH and low surfactant, then I apologise - this isn't something we would ever refer to as 'washing up liquid'. If you mean the type of product you put a squirt into you sink and then scrub your dishes then my former comments stand.
Over here we have the same mystique surrounding the fairy liquid you mentioned. A tiny squirt in a bucket will remove practically any LSP and may even mean your car rusts very rapidly... apparently! In simple practice, several of the comparable products we manufacture (manual/hand dishwash liquids) are also sold as car shampoos and are totally LSP safe. This is something which flies totally in the face of this 'mystique'!
sunday joe
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Ron Atchison
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The reason it appears to remove beading and give you the impression that it has stripped the wax/sealant is because dish soap is designed to make the water sheet to prevent water spots on your dishes. So while you may think you have a clean stripped surface you in fact have the chemical residue from the sheeting action of the dish soap. Will this slight amount of residue have an ill effect on your LSP bonding I have no idea, probably not. But know Dawn is not the stripper people believe it to be. To be sure, use a product that is designed to do what your wanting like a quality wax and grease remover followed by a MF towel. Simply wipe it on with a MF towel and while the remover is still wet and has the wax/sealant suspend to be wiped off with a clean MF towel turning frequently..
Inspite of anything I say, we need to take note of the responses here. A number of people have posted in agreement with what I have posted and rzatch has just posted a very good explanation of why (same concept I have tried to get across elsewhere). Then there are others disagreeing totally.
I think that those who are so certain of the stripping power need to take on board the arguments as to why this is not the case. Just because it first looks like the LSP is stripped does not guarantee this is the case. And if indeed your LSP is being stripped so very easily, should you not be thinking to use the sorts of LSPs used by those who are telling you that their LSPs are not so troubled?
I think that those who are so certain of the stripping power need to take on board the arguments as to why this is not the case. Just because it first looks like the LSP is stripped does not guarantee this is the case. And if indeed your LSP is being stripped so very easily, should you not be thinking to use the sorts of LSPs used by those who are telling you that their LSPs are not so troubled?
ihaveacamaro
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- Jun 16, 2012
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So then what do you recommend to take off LSPs?
In my experience there is simply no good answer. Keep in mind that I apply (and often strip test LSPs) numerous times in a week. This is where I fail to understand all the claims about easy stripping because this is by far the toughest part of my process.
1) Surfactant based products (like the washing up liquid, fairy or whatever) only hide the water repellent characteristics of LSPs, I see it all the time - hot water and a contact wash and the beading starts to return. I don't even bother trying this anymore.
2) Acid based products are not really worth talking about, even the chemistry of them is incorrect and there should be no good reason to expect them to be effective at stripping (effectively most LSPs are close to oils, after all).
3) Alkaline products. This is the only type of water based product I can see being worth talking about. The basic principle is a bit like making soap and the alkalinity reacts with the LSP (a simplification, of course) so removing it. In practice I still find this to be hit and miss. APCs and water based degreasers are often products of this type, non acid wheel cleaners also and traffic film removers (I don't know what you guys would call the latter). I have tried all of them neat on my wash mitt and a quick wash is never a guarantee for me. Admittedly, I work predominantly with sealants so I would say that this approach is likely to be a lot more effective with hydrocarbons (i.e. waxes). However, keep in mind tar. Tar is again rather like wax. It is not easy to remove with APC and will often persist on wheels after washing with strong non acid wheel cleaner (which is likely to be the strongest of the alkaline product variant). Heavy tar contamination simply does not come off with this product type, short of repeated application and scrubbing. To this end, why would we automatically assume that the same products would remove wax? This argument transfers to the surfactant or dawn or whatever - if it supposedly strips wax then it will also remove tar spots with ease... ive yet to see such a thing! What you do often see is the same as the surfactant products - the surfactants adhere to and hide the water repellent properties rather than removing the LSP.
4) Solvent based products. This is where I am at. We have a lot more trouble with tar than you guys and this is what we use for removing it. A bit like tarminator (not like the water based products, those are really only good for the mildest of tar contamination). Often these are blends of white spirits, mineral spirits and xylene with some of the really effective (and most dangerous for your vehicle - something most detailers fail to appreciate in the UK) products having even nastier hydrocarbon solvents. Generally, a good application of this type of product will dissolve many LSPs.
5) Abrasives. Working with polymers and other more durable (all of which are common in LSPs, whether they advertise or not!) means that the solvents are not always totally effective and I have to break out the polish.
The LSPs I typically work with are the type which will retail at $20 for a half litre and the most expensive goes at $25 for 250ml. You will appreciate that these are not going to be nano/ceramic sealants yet they do routinely require heavy solvents to reliably remove. The ingredients I use are industry standard and whilst I like to believe that ours are perhaps better than many others out there, it is simply nonsense to assume that their resistance to surfactants, alkalis and solvents is on another planet to products from competing manufacturers.
y8s
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- Sep 12, 2012
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I think the first link was an accident. They were supposed to be the same non-professional product (i.e. safe for skin contact).
Sounds like it's not vastly different from a non-stripping car shampoo. (disclaimer here that I'm not suggesting it is at all a replacement)
But the upside here is that the kids down on the corner supporting their high school with a car wash are only mechanically damaging your car when they wash it with Dawn/Fairy and not chemically stripping your wax.
swanicyouth
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- Mar 3, 2011
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I agree here. I've found many sealants correctly applied most difficult to remove. My definition of removed may be different than others. To me, the water must lay flat on the surface.
I've found no single best way to remove LSPs without paint cleaners or polish. I can guarantee you Dawn won't remove Powerlock or BFWD.
I use a two product approach. CG Citrus Red along with Griots Paint Prep. Even doing that, there is some tough areas where water will still bead.
I've also found Sonus All In 1 APC 30:1 usually works (as the product claims). However, the product has no "lube", so I would worry about towel marks.
Another good "wipe style" product which can be found locally is Rustoleum Wax and Grease Remover. Its sort of like Eraser, but offers more lube. Its surfactant based, not solvent based.
ihaveacamaro
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- Jun 16, 2012
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Interesting (and very enlightening) response.
One thing I see you didn't mention is clay or clay alternatives. How would these stack up in your opinion?
I will be honest, I cannot answer this. Testing multiple products means that I want to get the stuff off ASAP and clay is just too work intensive!
ihaveacamaro
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- Jun 16, 2012
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No worries, I do appreciate the info you bring here
I'm thinking I'm just not going to worry about strip washes now. Just go to claying and polishing and everything should be removed.
I quite agree... if you are taking an abrasive to the surface, there is really no point worrying about what remains of the wax/LSP!
Well I read all threads and I now believe Dawn will not remove any waxes or sealants
So even the experts that have posted here say their isn`t any liquid that does the job. So I guess, if I want to be sure to get all the old wax/ sealant off I`ll need to clay and polish it off.
I have my doubts that when people go to have a sealant applied at the detail shop that, the process of clay and polishing will be performed always. I know years ago when I checked out detailers they never said they would go through claying and polishing to apply a sealer, at least the 3 that I talked to.
So even the experts that have posted here say their isn`t any liquid that does the job. So I guess, if I want to be sure to get all the old wax/ sealant off I`ll need to clay and polish it off.
I have my doubts that when people go to have a sealant applied at the detail shop that, the process of clay and polishing will be performed always. I know years ago when I checked out detailers they never said they would go through claying and polishing to apply a sealer, at least the 3 that I talked to.
ihaveacamaro
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- Jun 16, 2012
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paint cleanser is supposed to work too to remove old waxes/sealants