Waterless car wash question

LazerRed1

LazerRed1

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How can a waterless car wash not introduce micro marring if the car has any dirt whatsoever? Is this to be used only on dusty cars? I seem to have a hard time not getting micro marring even with 2 bucket etc. etc.
 
Both waterless and rinseless washes use polymers to lift and encapsulate dirt from the paint surface so they can be picked up by MFs. I only do waterless if the car is lightly dirty. The key is not to scrub the dirt into the paint. I use lots of long nap MFs and little pressure.
 
mjlinane said:
Both waterless and rinseless washes use polymers to lift and encapsulate dirt from the paint surface so they can be picked up by MFs. I only do waterless if the car is lightly dirty. The key is not to scrub the dirt into the paint. I use lots of long nap MFs and little pressure.
Click to expand...
:iagree:

Also if you are getting marring with the 2BM, I would not try a waterless wash. Obviously your paint is very soft.
 
lazer, i too watched micro marring creep back into my wifes black mb after i put in about 25 hrs on a full correction. no matter what techniques i used in washing it happened even when i properly used a cal duster on VERY light dust. what i have done with much success is to let it go until i cant stand it then polish with mez micro polish 87 mc which does a fabulous job and removes very little of the clear coat.
as mike the magician told me a while back "now that you have the paint perfect the real work begins."

budinsc
 
What kind of towel are you using? We normally suggest a 300GSM or higher towel when using the waterless method.

Proper technique plays a major role as well. Make sure you are taking light strokes during your first pass with the microfiber towel. Personally, I take the approach of 'wipe and lift' whereby you are semi-rotating the towel as you slide across the panel. Applying too much pressure is bound to lead to problems.
 
Waterless wash is necessary at these apartments I'm at. To be honest I think they do induce a few swirls. After almost three months of WW my cars are probably where they are at my annual major detail. No biggie, it's just another opportunity to :buffing:
 
budinsc said:
. no matter what techniques i used in washing it happened even when i properly used a cal duster on VERY light dust.
budinsc
Click to expand...

LazerRed1 said:
How can a waterless car wash not introduce micro marring if the car has any dirt whatsoever? Is this to be used only on dusty cars? I seem to have a hard time not getting micro marring even with 2 bucket etc. etc.
Click to expand...



Micro-Marring, doesn't that imply that its too small to be seen. How in fact did you actually notice this "mirco-marring"? What I find even more interesting is that
a cal duster with very light dust can mare/scratch car paint and the clear coat.

I dont know the hardness factor of dust, cal dusters etc as compared to car paint but I sure wish a paint chemist was part of the forum. He sure could offer allot in regards to this and other topics. Myth and Fact are so frequently blurred
 
Bacon said:
Micro-Marring, doesn't that imply that its too small to be seen. How in fact did you actually notice this "mirco-marring"? What I find even more interesting is that
a cal duster with very light dust can mare/scratch car paint and the clear coat.

I dont know the hardness factor of dust, cal dusters etc as compared to car paint but I sure wish a paint chemist was part of the forum. He sure could offer allot in regards to this and other topics. Myth and Fact are so frequently blurred
Click to expand...

Paint/clear-coat paint hardness is often gauged/referred to where it fits in the Mohs and/or Pencil Hardness tests. Some examples:



Some tests OEM's require from paint manufacturers (Bolded tests may relate somewhat to your inquiry)

-4000 hour weatherometer
-ASTM D3363 pencil hardness
-Amtec Kistler - Car Wash Test
-Crockmeter test
-Tukon hardness
-ASTM D524 gloss (20¡/60¡)
-ASTM D3359 adhesion test method B
-ASTM D4060 abrasion resistance
-ASTM D4752 MEK resistance
-ASTM D1308 chemical spot resistance
-ASTM D1308 skydrol immersion (7 days)
-ASTM D522 flexibility test
-ASTM D2794 impact resistance direct
- ASTM B117 salt spray test method
-Water contact degree angle
-ASTM D4585 humidity resistance
-ASTM D3170 chip resistance
-ASTM D968 falling sand abrasion (100 liters)

____________________________________________________


Pencil Hardness of paints/coatings (Hard to find out which paints and by what paint manufacturers OEM's utilize at any given moment)

Catalyzed polyester: 9H
Catalyzed polyurethane: 9H
Catalyzed Modified Acrylic polyurethane: 4H ***
Catalyzed Acrylic polyurethane: 2H ***
Water-based polyurethane: 3H ***
Water-based urethane/Isocyanate Catalyst: 2H ***
Conversion varnish: 4H
Low VOC Catalyzed laquer (24 hrs): 2H
Low VOC laquer: 3H
Urethane/Nitrocellulose laquer (24 hrs): F
Water reducible laquer: 2H
Tung oil/polyurethane wipe-on finish: 2H
Water-based polyurethane wipe-on finish: HB-F
Aerosol precat: 3B
Aerosol water clear acrylic: 3B
Aerosol clear shellac: 3B
Aerosol nitrocellulose/polyurethane: HB
Aerosol nitrocellulose: 3B
Amber (orange) Shellac: 3B

____________________________________________________


Pencil Hardness Scale:

9H 8H 7H 6H 5H 4H 3H 2H H
Hardest -> -> ->

F HB
Medium -> ->

B 2B 3B 4B 5B 6B 7B 8B 9B
-> -> -> Softest

____________________________________________________


Moh's Scale:

(IMO...May apply to hardness of paint/clear-coat paint? Why is hardness of various minerals important? Abrasives are manufactured from minerals and are in compounds/polishes.)

Mineral Hardness
Diamond 10
Corundum 9
Topaz 8
Quartz 7
Orthoclase 6
Apatite 5
Fluorite 4
Calcite 3
Gypsum 2
Talc 1


____________________________________________________

-Sorry to report that most clear-coat paint films are nowhere near the very top portion on either the Pencil Hardness or Moh's Scales test. But are they getting "better"..perhaps...but still getting thinner...that's a fact!

-Haven't been able, as of yet, to locate the Original California Duster's fibers actual placement on either of the above Scales. Need the OCalDuster's fibers make-up information, in order to possibly determine its abilities to inflict micro-marring on a given clear-coat paint. Will post that info, when obtained, ASAP.

-And...It would be very difficult to place where "dust" fits on these Scales, without having a sample of the particular "dust" that lies atop the vehicles in question to take to the Lab....To possibly determine its impact, if any, on a given clear-coat paint as well. Too many, and different levels, of "dustiness".

-I agree with your premise/definition of micro-marring to a point. But this Mike Phillips article, IMO, is more meaningful:

http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum...uffer-swirls-cobweb-swirls-micro-marring.html

:)

Bob
 
I don't use waterless, never have, and probably won't since I don't think there is any way in the world to prevent some surface damage. Right now the car is pretty good on the very fine marks. Nothing even as bad in Mike's article. What I have I think was done at the dealers when the car was on the showroom floor, but I think the clearcoat even shows lines when using the best waffle weave available. Not sure there is any way to prevent it.
 
FUNX725 said:
Paint/clear-coat paint hardness is often gauged/referred to where it fits in the Mohs and/or Pencil Hardness tests. Some examples:



Some tests OEM's require from paint manufacturers (Bolded tests may relate somewhat to your inquiry)

-4000 hour weatherometer
-ASTM D3363 pencil hardness
-Amtec Kistler - Car Wash Test
-Crockmeter test
-Tukon hardness
-ASTM D524 gloss (20¡/60¡)
-ASTM D3359 adhesion test method B
-ASTM D4060 abrasion resistance
-ASTM D4752 MEK resistance
-ASTM D1308 chemical spot resistance
-ASTM D1308 skydrol immersion (7 days)
-ASTM D522 flexibility test
-ASTM D2794 impact resistance direct
- ASTM B117 salt spray test method
-Water contact degree angle
-ASTM D4585 humidity resistance
-ASTM D3170 chip resistance
-ASTM D968 falling sand abrasion (100 liters)

____________________________________________________


Pencil Hardness of paints/coatings (Hard to find out which paints and by what paint manufacturers OEM's utilize at any given moment)

Catalyzed polyester: 9H
Catalyzed polyurethane: 9H
Catalyzed Modified Acrylic polyurethane: 4H ***
Catalyzed Acrylic polyurethane: 2H ***
Water-based polyurethane: 3H ***
Water-based urethane/Isocyanate Catalyst: 2H ***
Conversion varnish: 4H
Low VOC Catalyzed laquer (24 hrs): 2H
Low VOC laquer: 3H
Urethane/Nitrocellulose laquer (24 hrs): F
Water reducible laquer: 2H
Tung oil/polyurethane wipe-on finish: 2H
Water-based polyurethane wipe-on finish: HB-F
Aerosol precat: 3B
Aerosol water clear acrylic: 3B
Aerosol clear shellac: 3B
Aerosol nitrocellulose/polyurethane: HB
Aerosol nitrocellulose: 3B
Amber (orange) Shellac: 3B

____________________________________________________


Pencil Hardness Scale:

9H 8H 7H 6H 5H 4H 3H 2H H
Hardest -> -> ->

F HB
Medium -> ->

B 2B 3B 4B 5B 6B 7B 8B 9B
-> -> -> Softest

____________________________________________________


Moh's Scale:

(IMO...May apply to hardness of paint/clear-coat paint? Why is hardness of various minerals important? Abrasives are manufactured from minerals and are in compounds/polishes.)

Mineral Hardness
Diamond 10
Corundum 9
Topaz 8
Quartz 7
Orthoclase 6
Apatite 5
Fluorite 4
Calcite 3
Gypsum 2
Talc 1


____________________________________________________

-Sorry to report that most clear-coat paint films are nowhere near the very top portion on either the Pencil Hardness or Moh's Scales test. But are they getting "better"..perhaps...but still getting thinner...that's a fact!

-Haven't been able, as of yet, to locate the Original California Duster's fibers actual placement on either of the above Scales. Need the OCalDuster's fibers make-up information, in order to possibly determine its abilities to inflict micro-marring on a given clear-coat paint. Will post that info, when obtained, ASAP.

-And...It would be very difficult to place where "dust" fits on these Scales, without having a sample of the particular "dust" that lies atop the vehicles in question to take to the Lab....To possibly determine its impact, if any, on a given clear-coat paint as well. Too many, and different levels, of "dustiness".

-I agree with your premise/definition of micro-marring to a point. But this Mike Phillips article, IMO, is more meaningful:

http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum...uffer-swirls-cobweb-swirls-micro-marring.html

:)

Bob
Click to expand...

Moh's and Pencil Hardness Updates (as promised) of:

RE: The Original California Duster, and "dust"


I. "Dust":
A.) Quartz is the most abundant mineral found on Earth; it is found in the dust that's in the air; and is continually 'settling' upon all surfaces...Yes, human beings; and even their vehicles.
B.) IMO, "dust", due to it containing quartz, can be given a 7 on the Moh's Scale....harder than most clear-coat paint.

II. The Original California Duster:
A.) Product states to have "special paraffin waxes" baked into 100% cotton strands.
B.) Paraffin wax is derived from highly refined petroleum, and, as determined by these ASTM testing methods, paraffin wax has:

ASTM D87: Melting point between 100*-160*F
ASTM D1321: Needle penetration [hardness determined at 77*-100*F...the higher the value, the softer the wax]. For paraffin: 9-20 [0.1dmm (decimillimeter)]
ASTM D445: Kinematic Viscosity. (The resistance to flow of a molten wax, results in centistokes (cSt). 2.9-7.5 for paraffin
ASTM D1833: Odor intensity test. A value of 1, or less is acceptable for paraffin.

I surmise, then, that:
The "special paraffin wax" used to coat the otherwise "soft" 100% cotton strands on the Orig.Cali.Duster could possibly be: A paraffin wax that's been treated with chemical hardeners to: Raise the melting point; ensure the correct kinematic viscosity, and, to also 'stiffen' (further harden) the paraffin wax's low needle penetration value (pencil hardness similarity?), among other factors.

Remember: These particular types of paraffin wax dusters will, over time, lose some of its claimed "dust-attraction-abilities", and the cotton strands must be 're-waxed', as it were.


In conclusion:

Using The Original California Duster, with its "special paraffin waxed" cotton strands (RE: Stiffened, waxed, petroleum aroma, to an unknown degree...see above)....On vehicles' "dusty" (quartz embedded) top-coat paint film surfaces does, IMHO, have quite the ability to inflict micro-marring to: Softer-than-quartz top-coat paint surfaces....no matter the dusting techniques one employs. I, for one, will not take that risk.


Note: Please feel free to call these micro-marring "blemishes" by other well-known 'detailing nomenclatures', if you so desire.

:)

Bob
 
FUNX725 said:
Moh's and Pencil Hardness Updates (as promised) of:



In conclusion:

Using The Original California Duster, with its "special paraffin waxed" cotton strands (RE: Stiffened, waxed, petroleum aroma, to an unknown degree...see above)....On vehicles' "dusty" (quartz embedded) top-coat paint film surfaces does, IMHO, have quite the ability to inflict micro-marring to: Softer-than-quartz top-coat paint surfaces....no matter the dusting techniques one employs. I, for one, will not take that risk.


Note: Please feel free to call these micro-marring "blemishes" by other well-known 'detailing nomenclatures', if you so desire.

:)

Bob
Click to expand...

Interesting stuff, well done. I think the only thing missing are the downward forces required to inflict these blemishes.

Thanks again for the details!!
 
Bacon said:
Interesting stuff, well done. I think the only thing missing are the downward forces required to inflict these blemishes.

Thanks again for the details!!
Click to expand...

Thanks for your kind words, Bacon.


I believe the "downward forces" could somewhat be covered under the umbrella of my previous mention of:

Dusting techniques

{which might include, say: One's overall body strength (physiology); co-ordination (synergy); finesse (artisanship); and, of course, Gravity.}

But....Sure as I'm sitting here...There probably exists other downward, as well as upward, forces (and their implication of causing "micro-marring") that just seems to eludes me at the moment.


Final Epilogue to follow?? :D J/K...



:)

Bob
 
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