Wax and water spots question..

[Sonic Pilot]

Nah. I can see it already. Everyone and their brother-in-law will be asking me to do a 50/50 with this and that. I don't mind doing some online research, but I do not intend to become a part time research engineer and buy all sorts of products to test. That is unless there is something more in it for me. I'll continue with my online research and eventually try something that I think might be a keeper. The Meguiars Water Spot Detailer that I mentioned above seems to have some promise to it. Waiting to see if I can get some feedback from people who have already used it!

 

[DetailZeus]

Let me dig up a post on this topic, I find it a good one to revisit once in awhile. Go to the actual thread see the diagram.

I have to admit that I am being driven a bit up the wall on this subject. There are some basic, textbook, errors being made in this sector and they are outright ignored (If people even argued about it, I would feel better!).

Ok, a knock up of something to try to explain hydrophobic and hydrophillic.

With a strongly hydrophobic surface, we get tight beads. Tilt the surface and they want to run off quite easily. Unless you have a huge volume of water, you will get it running off in blobs or beads, any sheets which try to form will break up quite easily. This is what you guys have when you post 'beading' pictures.

Then you have a less hydrophobic surface. The beads are not all that tight anymore, more like blobs but they do still form. Tilt the surface and, if you have enough water, these blobs will join together and gravity will get the newly formed 'sheet' rolling off the surface. The sheet will trail along any other water there and leave it dry. This is what you (mostly) refer to as sheeting - the surface is mildly hydrophobic, not strongly hydrophilic

Now look at how a hydrophilic surface behaves. Water actually sticks to the surface. Again, it forms a sheet but this time there is some level of bonding to the surface. Tilt it and the water at the surface interface is still stuck! It does not run off as a sheet, it drains off from the top, a bit like pouring water out of a jug. Eventually you get to the point where most of the water is gone but, because of the bond to the surface, the surface will still be wet, albeit a very thin sheet (much thinner than with a hydrophobic manifestation). You can tilt this all you like and it will not roll off. It will dry via evaporation and it will leave a uniform finish. This is what you often see with soiled vehicles and you can often tell a surface like this because it will be the first one dry after a rain shower.

So I am confident that almost all the time detailers talk about sheeting, they are talking about a hydrophobic surface which is simply not hydrophobic enough to break the sheet down. I am also confident that the majority of times detailers refer to hydrophilic, they have been misled or misunderstand the product. I would further note that there is a tendency that the people selling and marketing products will be no better informed than the end users and I believe this is not helping the confusion at all (because we have some brands who get it totally wrong as well).

Have a look at the attached schematic and perhaps this will help explain further.

 

[DetailZeus]

Here's another one:

Believe it or not, contact angle (what makes beads look impressive) and sliding angle (what makes them run off) are quite distinct and not necessarily linked. In fact, many high contact angle surfaces require quite high sliding angles to clear them. In automotive, contact angle is for show, sliding angle is what is actually best.

 

[DetailZeus]

And another:

In detailing terminology, when you break down to the science, beading and sheeting are the same effect. Both are caused by the surface being hydrophobic. A finish which beads is more hydrophobic than one which sheets. In practice, many strongly hydrophobic sealants will diminish and become less so (and thus 'sheet' better) as they age.

Now, as I have mentioned before, the detailing and science tend to diverge. From a more scientific perspective, I would suggest that a hydrophobic finish will bead (i.e. a droplet forms when placed on the surface) whereas a hydrophillic finish will sheet (it will form a sheet, not a drop). The trouble comes because the scientific 'sheet' is a sheet which sticks to the surface. The detailing 'sheet' is a sheet which does NOT stick to the surface and it is in fact only a sheet because of the bulk nature (i.e. you are using lots of water, not just a small amount). In reality, the hydrophobic finish is what I would really want. The water sticks to the surface and can then get 'under' the dirt - it gives self cleaning. Hydrophobic finishes are absolutely the opposite, they actually tend to be very hard to clean because they are very hard to wet (which is the fundamental principle in water based cleaning), they are just harder to dirty. Of course this only goes so far and, once dirty, they are absolutely certainly going to be harder to clean than hydrophillic surfaces. That said, I am not aware of a genuinely hydrophillic sealant or finish. There are some who claim it, but they generally are demonstrating their lack of knowledge because their products 'sheets' as a detailer expects, so it is not hydrophillic at all, just a bit hydrophobic.

 

[DetailZeus]

Last one I promise. This post is great and I wish it could be stickied.

After reading through this entire thread here's the only comments I have to add...

First, the OP asked me for some input and here you go. As much as anyone and probably more than most I've weighed in on public forums since 2002 on the topic of water beading. If your read through enough of my posts on any forum you'll get my take on this subject.

Here's the nutshell version...

Water beading is BAD for paint. There are too many destructive/corrosive elements that get into the air and are mixed with rain or in the forum of airborne pollution that lands on your cars paint and then mixes with rain or is in your "water sources" whatever that might be when you wash your car that IF the standing water is not removed but instead left to dry on it's own it will leave one of three types of water spots.

• Type I
• Type II <-- The worst kind to get in your car's paint
• Type III

And I have articles on all of the above in my article list. I also cover the problem with water beading in my book and the above types of water spots with Type II being the worst.

So water beading isn't a good thing because it brings with it the POTENTIAL for Type II crater etchings that can only be removed by compounding or polishing the paint.

And of course the problem with this is paint is thin.... I wrote an article yesterday that addresses this issue here,

Clearcoats are Scratch-Sensitive




Now here's the dealio....


Perception is reality

Doesn't matter if you agree or like this fact it is what it is. Perception is reality.

PEOPLE like to see water beading and the masses believe it PROVES two things,

• Protection
• Longevity

Now we can all sit around at our computers and type on this forum all day long about how great it would be to have a wax that sheets water but here's what I've seen in my career.

Waxes that sheet water get dissed on discussion forums and

• Not protecting
• Not lasting

Once a forum consensus is formed it travels all through the Internet and if Brand XYZ is deemed to not bead water very well or for very long it is put down, dissed slammed to no end and once it gets this type of reputation it's hard to change it.

And people won't buy it.


I worked for Meguiar's when the decision was made to reformulate NXT to bead water better and longer. It had a reputation of not lasting for very long because it didn't bead water for very long.

Heck I was there when the chemists held a demonstration to show how well a beta version worked compared to Zaino Z2 and after the demo it was time to go back to the drawing board.

Seriously... I've been in this world all my life. I know the entire topic inside and out and upside and upright and the masses want products that bead water and any product that doesn't bead water very well and for a long time gets beat up really bad.

The Zaino Case Study I wrote in 2003 address this issue in detail.


I think "protection products" for paint that sheet water are safer for preciously thin clear coats...


The factory sprayed clear layer of paint on most new cars averages around 2 mils. That's thinner than the average post-it note.

Water sheeting is a great idea... Meguiar's tried to educate the masses for years that water sheeting was better than water beading and they finally gave up and gave in. What's that say? If they can't change perception no one can.

People like to see water bead up in small, tall tight little beads on the hood of their car. I think it looks cool to even though my brain tells me that this could lead to water spots.

Perception is reality though and the masses want product that bead water and anyone that brings out a product that sheets water instead of beads water is going to have a tough time convincing a sometimes very rough crowd here in the forum world to buy their product.

Hey... if it doesn't bead water very well and for a long time, (that's two things by the way), then people will say it's not protecting well or protecting for a long time and people want to "think" the product they buy and apply protect well and last a long time and the masses judge this by water beading.


Don't know if that helps but there you go...

 

[DetailZeus]

Just realized there is a typo in the original quote above, corrected in bold below.

[...] In reality, the hydrophillic finish is what I would really want. The water sticks to the surface and can then get 'under' the dirt - it gives self cleaning. Hydrophobic finishes are absolutely the opposite, they actually tend to be very hard to clean because they are very hard to wet (which is the fundamental principle in water based cleaning), they are just harder to dirty. [...]

So the moral of the story is my ideal LSP would

-Sheet water (hydrophillic)
-Bead oil (oleophobic)
-And turn bright pink to tell me when it was time to reapply :laughing:

 

[Sonic Pilot]

Interesting article there by Mike Phillips on water beading vs. sheeting and Meguiars attempt to educate the industry. Perhaps it's time for a reboot from Mguiars on this. It would be a major P.R effort but the end result would be worth it.

It sounds like Meguiars at some point said "you can't fix stupid" and gave up on trying to convince the public that beading is not all it is cracked up to be..

 

[Submariner]

We live in a very hard water area. If you wash it its impossible tomdry it before you get some white hazing.
My solution is to rinse off with filtered water 2ppm! And blow dry it as soon as you finish washing.Its so bad I even use filtered water in the car wash!

The best product I have found is Collinite 476S . If this is double coated it lasts 6 months!
Nothing gets close to it.
If you were prepared to Clay it and double coat it, your rain fall problem would go away for at least 4 months and probably up to 6 months.
Due to a bad back, I discovered it was still beading at 11 Months.

Note my mileage is 3,000 p.a. But the car lives outside!

 

[Toolhead]

Ten years ago, I said that we can send a man to the moon, but we can't prevent water spots and we still can't.

this...its a car that is outside exposed to elements..dirt..water spots and whatever science that explains how something gets dirty etc are inevitable

 

[Adamcool791]

I agree with you i don’t like beading but the Detailer was like wax is so good for your jeep well lucky my jeep is white but I do have water spots I think I’m better off not having wax being I park outside

I apologize if this has been covered previously, but I am becoming frustrated. Here's my basic question: Does wax (or any other typical LSP) contribute to the appearance of water spots?

Here is why I am asking. I have 2 cars, both black. A dodge Challenger and a Cadillac. The Challenger I detail religiously and obsess over, the Caddy is just a daily driver. The Caddy just gets a periodic wash from time to time, that's it! No waxing, polishing or any other products applied. Whenever it rains, the Cadillac does get some minor water spotting but it washes of pretty easily. Even if the wash doesn't take place for a couple of days later.
The Challenger, the one I polish, wax and completely obsess over, will get water spots that will not come off easily even when washed immediately after a rain. Typically, a light rubbing or polishing is the only way to completely remove them....until the next rain! WTH?!?

Shouldn't a wax or other LSP minimize the impact of water spotting? Or at least ease the removal of them when done in a timely manner?

Thanks for you thoughts!

 

[Adamcool791]

I feel wax of more for your Sunday drive round car when it’s sunny out and not raining and then kept in a garage on rainy days and the guy who said he blows off his car after every rain I doubt he does that