wet sand and correction with Flex3401?

[11RaceRedGT]

Haven't posted much but i look to this forum for advice and opinions. I am building a '29 Model A Roadster into a hot rod. This was a ground up build and finally after 4 years, I painted all the sheet metal and am getting ready to assemble. Prior to assembly, i am wet sanding and buffing all the parts and body separately. The car is painted PPG Race Red base with 3 coats of PPG Concept high solids clear topcoat. I have polished and buffed many cars, but this is my first attempt at wet sanding to remove orange peel. I wanted to try the least aggressive approach, so my procedure is:
1) wet sand with Meguiars 1000 Unigrit until almost smooth.
2) wet sand diagonal pattern across 1000 grit pattern with 2000 Unigrit
3) wet sand opposite diagonal pattern from above with 3000.
4) Meguiars 105 and orange pad on Flex3401, speed at 6
5) Meguiars 205 and white pad also speed 6
This seems to be giving good results, but there is little sunlight this time of year for a good outdoor inspection. It does look good under flourescent shop lights. Am I going to be disappointed when i get this car out in the sunlight? Are there better products that i should use? I am not opposed to using a rotary, but if the DA works i would rather not risk burning through. Thanks

 

[cardaddy]

Would love to do that to my father in laws 29 Tudor.


I'll address the buffing part.

First... don't mess with 105, just too hard to deal with. It'll dry up on you in less than a minute if there is any heat involved. Then once it does... it's like cement and you have to put water, baby oil,/mineral oil, or more 105 on the surface to get it off.

If you're committed to Meguiar's, go with 101, you'll LOVE it! Cuts like crazy, but has a working time that doesn't drive you nuts.

Then as for speed on the Flex. IMO speed 6 is waaaaaaaay too fast. Heat build up in the pad, and at the back of the pad/Velcro/backing plate interface will come on FAST and you'll have to swap out to a new, cool, clean, primed pad before you can get a panel completed.

I'd start with medium arm pressure, slow arm speed, and try speed 4 to 4.5 to start with. Remember, with the 3401 you are getting 100% pad rotation at all times, zero loss there as opposed to what you'd be getting with a 'free spindle' machine. (Which *would* need a faster speed setting.)

You might run a bit faster when polishing with 205, that'd be ok. Still don't need 6 on the Flex though. Just lighten up the arm pressure a bit, and you can move your arm speed just a tick faster, although don't get in a hurry. One way to get that extra nth of finish is moving to a lighter pad half way through the polishing step. And of course another is just to move to a lighter polish (like Megs Ultimate Polish) with a white pad and really work it down.

Both the Meguiar's products will do what you want, just need to finesse the system as you go. Do remember though that you're dealing with SMAT compounds. The abrasives don't break down, and they cut on the 4th pass like they did on the first pass. Actually, a heavy cutting compound could even cut more as the micro particles can actually get larger with built up abraded paint and used up spent product getting all mixed together the longer it works. You're safer with SMAT products to prime the pad, work the surface 4~5 passes and wipe it off. Make sure you are always buffing a wet surface, in that you're leaving a wet film trail, and you're wiping a wet film off of the surface. If it dries, you've worked it too long. Easy enough to work it 4~5 passes, wipe, and put fresh product on for another 4~5 passes to finish the cut you need.

Now if you went to Menzerna that's a whole new situation. Takes a lot of passes to get it to do what it's meant to do. Work FG400 only 4~5 passes and you're wasting product as well as your time. Mike@DedicatedPerfection has a thread he did on Menzerna that describes the process for those products really well. He is talking about specifically the hybrid pad system, but most of us have been using a very similar system with all the Lake Country pads. Here... found it!

http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum...rning-3401-menzerna-products-hybrid-pads.html

Basically, you start and keep working it. You can stop about half way through (with some products) hit your pad with a spritz of distilled water (a spritz.... DO NOT make it wet) then continue to work the product down till it's all but gone (but still a visible wet film).

I've worked FG400, 1000, 1500, 2500 with an orange LC pad all with great results using a similar method. Don't spritz with 4000 because I've never needed to, it's just that good.

Just PLEEEEAAAASSSSEEEE slow that Flex down. That and use a LOT of pads! Love my 3401, and also love not having to buy new pads when the old ones get melted.

Do make sure and read that entire thread though, as later in it Mike actually says something about working the product too fast. Mike has been using the Flex for a long time now (since he was still stationed in Colorado, now in Germany) so if you have literally anything you want/need to know about that puppy... I'd shoot him a PM.

Here's another thread on the Flex 3401.
http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum...127-question-about-flex-3401-hybrid-pads.html

 

[GSKR]

Invest in a swirl finder light,and some Ipa so when your done with enhancing the paint you won't have a heart attack when you pull it out in the sun.

 

[dlc95]

I agree that M105 might drive you nuts with the short work time. I personally really like M100!

I actually get much more pad spin from my PC than my 3401. I also pick up more paint with an open cell pink LC / green B&S pad than I can with yellow or orange cutting pads.

If you're finishing with 3000 grit though, the orange should make short work of it. Heck, even Ultimate Compound will clean that up.

 

[11RaceRedGT]

Cardaddy, gskr and dlc, thanks much for responding and the advice. I will have to order up some Menzerna and hybrid pads and give that combo a try. And I will slow the speed for sure!

GSKR - what is "ipa"? Or are you referring to beer?

 

[cardaddy]

Cardaddy, gskr and dlc, thanks much for responding and the advice. I will have to order up some Menzerna and hybrid pads and give that combo a try. And I will slow the speed for sure!

GSKR - what is "ipa"? Or are you referring to beer?

isopropyl alcohol

You need to mix a solution of about 25%~30% with distilled water to remove all traces of buffing compound and check your work. Once you've got the process down it should be OK that you're not wiping every square inch, but you DO want to do your test spots and follow your correction procedure through from start to finish on each test spot.

You could pick up a few bottles of Eraser here and use it. Or... you can mix something like Meguiar's D114 at 192:1 (strongest) or 256:1 (weakest) and make a 30% alcohol solution with it. Remember that you'll use distilled water to make your mix.

Here's a link I use that'll allow you to figure the dilution of alcohol. Say you're taking 91% off the shelf alcohol, and mixing that to fill a 32oz bottle with your D114 solution it'll tell you how many ounce of solution you use to alcohol to get a given dilution. (You can plug in any percentage you want so you can make a 20% or even a 60% end solution.)

Just move down to the second box on the page and change it to read ounces.
Home Distillation of Alcohol (Homemade Alcohol to Drink)

For instance:

32oz bottle of 30% alcohol using 91% alcohol you use:
10.549 oz of alcohol
21.451 oz of water (or D114 solution)


To expound on the initial compounding procedure a bit more...

May be that you do orange pad, M101 (or M100), 4 passes and a wipe, then 4 more passes and a wipe, slow arm speed, medium (15~18 pounds) arm pressure, machine speed 3 on one test spot.

Then the next spot you do everything the same, BUT take the machine speed to speed 4.

Next test spot you might change the compound, but same pad.

OR... you might change the pad and use the same compound.

Remember... you only want to use the aggressiveness that gets the job done.
Sounds like you're laying on a decent amount of paint, but... that doesn't mean you want to pull a ton off just because it's there. If a given compound pulls out the 3000 grit marks with a white pad... then no need to move to the orange on.

The trick is figuring out which pad/compound/speed/amount of passes gets the job done with the least amount of effort. :xyxthumbs:

 

[Mike@DedicatedPerfection]

I would like to weigh in on the sanding part. Cardaddy (Tony) really took care of the buffing part. Well done good sir. Thanks for including my smack technique article rops:

First and foremost IF you have any runs, sags, dirt nibs, etc that need addressed I would not use a sanding block and sandpaper or a machine set up for sanding to remove these imperfections. Doing this way remove surrounding clear as well when you just want to focus on the topical defects on the paint rather than in it such as swirls etc.

The proper way to remove these defects is with a rigid sanding blocks such the ones made by Meguiar's.
Meguiars Unigrit Sanding Blocks

The rigid sanding blocks will only work on the raised areas of the affected paint and will level them down without going over into the level paint to much. Attached is a review I completed on them.
http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum...meguiar-s-unigrit-sanding-block-k-1000-a.html

If you do not have any of these issues to deal with and only want to remove orange peel, areas shot dry, etc I would equip a DA with an interface pad and 1500 paper and begin cutting out the defects in the paint.
Meguiars Unigrit™ 6 Inch Foam Interface Pad, sanding disc interface pad, backup pad, foam backing pad

You can also set up another machine with a 3" plate, 3" interface pad, and sanding discs to allow work in confined areas.
Meguiars Unigrit 3 Inch Professional Backing Plate and Adaptor Kit, backing plate with adapters, meguiars backup pad, DBP3
Meguiars Unigrit 3 Inch Foam Interface Pad, foam backup pad, sanding disc interface

After the entire vehicle has been damp sanded free of defects, you can move on to 3000 grit sandpaper again on the machines. This allows better, even, uniform coverage over hand sanding.

Once you have finished up the sanding operations you can move forward with your polishing sessions. This is where I would equip my Flex PE14, Hybrid wool pad, and FG400 to start removing the sanding marks. Once this step has been completed my next step would be the Flex 3401 equipped with the white Hybrid pads and SF4000. Being that the vehicle is a show car, I would take it a step further and bring out the PE14 again and use SF4500 and a finer pad such as the gold Hybrid Jeweling pad and begin jeweling the paint to an incredibly high luster before applying a wax, sealant or coating.

I saw the discussion of IPA above. Just an option. If you would rather use a dedicated panel wipe down product rather than using an homemade alcohol mixture, Menzerna Top Inspection was formulated for this task.

Don't hesitate to ask further questions.

Best Regards,
Mike

 

[cardaddy]

You know, I didn't even mention sanding with the little Rupes Duetto. Which btw is a breeze!

(Good luck finding their sanding discs however!!!)

Mike, now that you've brought them up....cool thing about the Meguiar's blocks... is they last FOR - FREAKIN - EVER!

I have a 3000 grit block I bought in 85 that I still use! I chit u not.

Corners are a bit rounded from standing it on a corner to work nibs or along a deep scratch, but it still gets the jod done.

 

[Mike@DedicatedPerfection]

Tony, these blocks last forever!!!

I originally bought the 1K block as it was my first go with them and wanted to see what they offered. After I used it in that review I swear by them for removing nibs from the paint.

I should grab the 2K and 3K as well just so I have a better selection of them on hand.

I also just saw that Menzerna released a 2K and 3K package set...
https://www.menzerna.com/company/news/news-detail/46-new-solid-grit-sanding-block-set/

 

[11RaceRedGT]

Cardaddy - thanks for the definition of "IPA". My mind went directly to Indian Pale Ale...go figure

Mike - thank you for taking time to reply. I really appreciate everyone's help and advice.

So, yes, I did have a couple of areas with small runs. I did use a 1000 Unigrit block keeping it flat to the run and frequently checking to be sure i was only removing the run. These do work awesome and I can see where they will probably last forever.

I have read about using a DA with discs to wet sand. I am really apprehensive to try that. I have a better comfort level hand sanding with a DuraBlock. Model A's have very little areas that are flat. Mostly all compound curved panels and raised features at body lines. Also, the clear layed out really nice, so the orange peel is not excessive. It is smoother that the factory finish on my 2011 Mustang!

I ordered some Hybrid Pads and Menzerna products lat night before the sale ended. I will hold off with any further paint work until those arrive.

Wow, such a wealth of knowledge here and helpful people. Its nice to be on a forum where one isn't criticized for posting questions.

 

[Mike PhillipsMike Phillips is verified member.]

Haven't posted much but i look to this forum for advice and opinions. I am building a '29 Model A Roadster into a hot rod. This was a ground up build and finally after 4 years, I painted all the sheet metal and am getting ready to assemble.

How old is the paint?

Invest in a swirl finder light,

and some Ipa so when your done with enhancing the paint you won't have a heart attack when you pull it out in the sun.

Years ago I wrote the article I NEVER wanted to write. I had to because there were a handful of let's call them people, recommending to everyone and their brother to wipe their paint down with IPA with NO furtner information.

Like how strong of a solution to use?

This left a huge gap and lack of information to anyone reading their advice and following it and the problem with this was there are some risks.

So I asked for someone else to write the article and after a year went by and now one took the challenge I finally wrote it to try to protect people from making a mistake.

Here's the link to the article,

How to Mix IPA for Inspecting Correction Results


And here's what it says about using IPA on FRESH PAINT - Just one of the risks... and in fact it's the VERY FIRST PPARAGRAPH IN THE ARTICLE

WARNING
Do not chemically strip FRESH PAINT. Fresh paint has not fully cross-linked, dried and hardened. Introducing any type of solvent to the surface and allowing it to dwell could have a negative effect on the paint.


​

So to the OP: How old is the paint?

And to anyone reading this into the future, if you're working on fresh paint, that is paint that is less than 30 days old don't wipe it down with IPA.



:xyxthumbs:

 

[Mike PhillipsMike Phillips is verified member.]

Haven't posted much but i look to this forum for advice and opinions. I am building a '29 Model A Roadster into a hot rod.

Cool car and project.

I wanted to try the least aggressive approach, so my procedure is:

1) wet sand with Meguiars 1000 Unigrit until almost smooth.
2) wet sand diagonal pattern across 1000 grit pattern with 2000 Unigrit
3) wet sand opposite diagonal pattern from above with 3000.

IF you really want to make the buffing process easier have you considered machine sanding or even hand sanding with 3M Trizact #5000?

You actually restore gloss or reflective sheen after sanding with #5000 grit Trizact and then buffing with an orbital polisher will be even faster and easier with a higher chance of completely removing the sanding marks.

Also, The RUPES coarse blue foam pad while intended for the RUPES machine can be used on the Flex 3401 and it's one of my favorites for fast and effective defect removal.

Most people that FEEL the coarseness of the foam are astonished. Still real safe though at least compared to a wool pad on a rotary.

Story about this pad here,

Mind Blowing - Rupes Blue Foam Cutting Pad and Zephir Gloss Coarse Gel Compound

The hybrid orange pads are aggressive too but the RUPES blue are more aggressive so faster cutting when using an orbital polisher.

 

[11RaceRedGT]

Mike - Thanks for the advice. I recently bought your book and read it. I hope i can get down there for some of your training too someday! I am in the Pacific Northwest so am at the farthest opposite corner of the country!

This has been a fun build and it's satisfying to see the vision come together. It is an important project as it was my Dad's car that he acquired in 1969. Being in the body and paint business all his life, he always wanted to build it, but never had time or money while raising a family. By the time he retired and had the time, he was diagnosed with Parkinsons. He was going to sell the car, but I convinced him to build it together. He is such a wealth of knowledge and although it is difficult for him, he still has the skill and took care of most all of the metal work. He almost 80 now and I want him to enjoy the car before its too late.

Regarding age of paint, it is right at a month old. I painted on Oct 8 and it sat for a few weeks before starting sanding. So it is right at a month old, but I still want to be careful. I will stay away from IPA for now.

Thanks again Mike!

 

[cardaddy]

Cardaddy - thanks for the definition of "IPA". My mind went directly to Indian Pale Ale...go figure

I have read about using a DA with discs to wet sand. I am really apprehensive to try that. I have a better comfort level hand sanding with a DuraBlock. Model A's have very little areas that are flat. Mostly all compound curved panels and raised features at body lines. Also, the clear layed out really nice, so the orange peel is not excessive. It is smoother that the factory finish on my 2011 Mustang!

I ordered some Hybrid Pads and Menzerna products lat night before the sale ended. I will hold off with any further paint work until those arrive.

Wow, such a wealth of knowledge here and helpful people. Its nice to be on a forum where one isn't criticized for posting questions.

I know it's a little thing... but never got your name, did we?

Ahhh... thought of something else.

You mentioned you used a high solids clear, which made me remember I've seen that lately. Todd@Rupes posted a thread recently http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum...rupes-pad-compound-recommendation-charts.html in which he has charts for various Rupes compounds and pads with various paints.

The first one (below) doesn't really specify OEM or not. But the one below that one does.

Just thought the thread might be a good read if nothing else.

All that aside, I see you went ahead and ordered some Menzerna products. You'll love them! I'm a lifetime Meguiar's guy, used that stuff with my first car in 73, which back then were DAT products. Then a few years ago I wanted to go to nothing but SMAT and tried (in vain) to stay on that path. That's when I ended up also ordering more and more Menzerna products.

If there is something you need to finish, and Megs or Menz can't cover it... it DOESN'T NEED finishing! :laughing: Might want to check though on which products are "body shop safe" as some of them are not.


Funny story, about the dangers of silicone in a body shop environment. I used to own a hi-line flatbed towing business, (for 18 years) and was at one of my customers shops one day and they had a guy washing cars for them, said he's worked in body shops before. Come to find out he was using a aerosol silicone tire shine on every car he washed. The paint shop was about 100 yards from the body shop (where the wash bay was), and the painter was in the office just raising heck about fisheyes. He'd painted three cars that day, all ended up with fisheyes. Day before, two with fisheyes.

I said, "Hey, you've got a new guy washing cars out there, think I'll throw him $20 to do a quick wash on my rollback", then I went out there and drove the truck over to the guy. I saw he had a case of ZEP tire shine, which I KNEW was silicone based! Went running up to the office to get the manager (a friend of mine) with a can in hand. They fired the guy on the spot! :laughing: Figured firing him was better than letting the painter get ahold of him, because HE was going to beat him senseless! :laughing:

On the machine sanding thing. I'm not from a shop environment, so I never really learned I guess you'd call it the 'right' way. I've done wet sanding by hand when I needed it here and there for years however, just haven't needed to cut and buff an entire new paint job straight from the booth. Then a while back the little Rupes Duetto came out, and the ability to sand with it was one of the selling points. I can say I've sanded with it a number of times, and it works great, couldn't ask for more, or for something any easier.

There were some Duetto kits way back when that had some discs with the kit. They last pretty well when you're just doing spot work like I need from time to time.

From Rupes:
RUPES is proud to announce the introduction of their X-Cut line of Foam Abrasive Sanding Discs.
The new X-Cut Sanding Discs are perfect for the removal of heavy defects, and finish down without leaving heavy pigtails like some abrasives tend to do.
X-Cut Sanding Discs were designed to be used with the RUPES LHR12E Duetto polisher, but can be used on any 125mm / 5" backing plate.
Available in P1500, P2000, and P3000 grits.

Old thread where Mike Phillips introduced them.
http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum...ps/72904-rupes-sanding-discs-p2000-p3000.html

I've never seen them for sale at Autogeek. They are available on Amazon (and other places) and run about $55~$60 for 20. Be careful where you look though because some places sell a 3-pack and the shipping is almost as much as the darned discs!

Here's one I spotted with a 2000 grit. It had a lot of damage on the quarter panel, as well as it was LOADED with holograms from a rotary.

Took just a few minutes to bring it back to life.

Appreciate your kind words to the members here. Thing is, if we don't ask questions... how are you/we supposed to learn anything. I know all to well how a lot of forums are and someone asks a question then next thing you know you see a dozen replies telling them to use the search function, rather than just telling them, or LINKING them the answer. Arrrrrggghhh that ticks me off!

I would say though that forum software makes searches a bit harder than they need to be. But,... (and it works for most any forum) if you do a Google search, then add +(whatever the forum name is) it'll come up with a lot of links. Like here for instance you might say "wet sanding with Flex 3401 +autogeek" and you'll get 7030 results with page after page linking direct to Autogeek forum threads.

Did want to say one more thing, not related to the work you're doing at all.

When I read the story about you and your Dad doing this together, it... well... I had to take a minute, (still do). Next June will be 10 years since I lost my Pop, (which was the same day Mom passed, only 3 years later), he was 92 and I miss him terribly to this day. I'd do ANYTHING to go back and just sit and have conversations with him that I never had. So many things we just never talked about. If I could... I'd ask him stupid questions that didn't relate to anything, just anything and everything that I'd thought from time to time about but never talked with him about.

I can just imagine once it's together, once she's ready for that first ride. I can see all the curves of that A Model (mentioned my father in law has a 29, just that his is all original).

I can picture it bright red, with just the right stance, looking low and mean, just shining like crazy in the sun. But the smile(s) on your faces will be brighter than any of that! :dblthumb2: That'll be a milestone moment in your life for sure! It'll be something that any son would want to share with their dad! You'll want family photos of that one for all the scrapbooks. That's a keeper there dude. rops:

 

[11RaceRedGT]

Cardaddy - sorry to not mention my name. It is Bret. Yes, one "T". I was named after Bret Maverick. If you know the show, you know I'm old.

Thanks for the suggestion on how to search better. I was feeling a little dumb when you and others started providing links to threads concerning this topic. However, had I not put my question out there, I wouldn't have had some nice conversation from some great people will to help and not criticize!
Sorry about your parents. It's hard to see them getting old and I can only imagine how hard it is to not have them around. I am trying to make up for lost years with my dad by working with him on this project. That is actually the main goal with a nice hot rod as a bonus.
I will try and get some pics posted at some point. Thanks again.