Wet sanded fully, but still some orange peel
- Thread starter James35
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Kevin Brown
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- Apr 11, 2009
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The only way to be completely certain is to use a hard backing, such as a popsicle stick, or a piece of wood (something non-flexible or pliable), wrap a piece of sandpaper around it, and sand a spot. Use a super fine grade, so you won't have to spend a lot of effort re-polishing.
I suspect it's the top coat, as base coats are usually sprayed a lot thinner. Even if there was orange peel below, the reflection would be level if the top coat is level.
As an example, if you took a piece of flat glass and laid it atop of sand or gravel, the reflection off the face of the glass would still be flat. Sure, you could see the topography below the glass, but the reflection isn't coming from there.
- Thread starter
- #23
OK, so the Meguiars Sanding Pad is the problem. So how would you use a hard backing on surfaces that aren't flat? Should I use something really small? I don't mind if that's what it takes to do a show quality finish.
Kevin Brown
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You would have to find a way to support the paper for those areas, as mentioned previously here:
Some guys simply fold the paper three or four times, and sand using the sandpaper itself as the backing.
I never said it would be easy.... Some leveling can be accomplished through the polishing process. It can be risky, and nowhere near as easy as some guys have recently claimed it to be, especially for a guy that is not super-proficient with a rotary.
If you have to, for very tight convex curves, you can use small diameter discs, and back them with foam, sand by hand or machine, and use a feather ing approach. That is, vet gentle sweeps, perhaps even sand without water so you can see the peel being affected, or sanding ridges.
Post up some shots of the tougher areas you are referring to, please. Then maybe we can get very specific.
Some guys simply fold the paper three or four times, and sand using the sandpaper itself as the backing.
I never said it would be easy.... Some leveling can be accomplished through the polishing process. It can be risky, and nowhere near as easy as some guys have recently claimed it to be, especially for a guy that is not super-proficient with a rotary.
If you have to, for very tight convex curves, you can use small diameter discs, and back them with foam, sand by hand or machine, and use a feather ing approach. That is, vet gentle sweeps, perhaps even sand without water so you can see the peel being affected, or sanding ridges.
Post up some shots of the tougher areas you are referring to, please. Then maybe we can get very specific.
- Thread starter
- #25
OK, I'm starting to see the light now. Thanks so much. The Equinox is my wife's primary driver, and it's my learning vehicle 
It has more curved surfaces than my 300C SRT8 that I'm dying to wet sand. I want to learn everything about it before I do the 300, as I only have 1 shot at it since the factory clear is so thin.
I've been thinking about using multiple layers of CQuartz to build up the clear thickness before I wet sand.
It has more curved surfaces than my 300C SRT8 that I'm dying to wet sand. I want to learn everything about it before I do the 300, as I only have 1 shot at it since the factory clear is so thin.I've been thinking about using multiple layers of CQuartz to build up the clear thickness before I wet sand.
Cquartz and other coatings of that type don't add a significant amount of material, it will all be gone after the first few strokes even if you put 5 layers. And also it's expensive and time-consuming to apply this if you will remove it by sanding right after.
The only way to add clear is to add clear, but ill let the painters chime in on that lol
93fox
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- Dec 25, 2010
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OK, I'm starting to see the light now. Thanks so much. The Equinox is my wife's primary driver, and it's my learning vehicle
I've been thinking about using multiple layers of CQuartz to build up the clear thickness before I wet sand.
From a painters point of view, this is what i think. If you dont have a paint reader gauge id reccomend you to go to a body shop and ask if they can get some quick readings around your car. Factory clear coat is really thin. Yes you can wetsand it and make it look all shinny and pretty again but how much clear of protection is really left? You want the clear to be at a good healthy thickness so it can offer maximum protection to the paint. So since factory clear is thin, make sure you get some readings of the paint first. Some cars come out of the factory with very low readings and wet sanding it can be very crucial. To remove orange peel you need a good amount of clear to work with. Factory clear is not sufficent enough to sand to then achieve a show car finish. In my personal opinion, dont wetsand factory clear just to remove orange peel. If you want your car to be without orange peel, simply go get quotes on how much it would be to spray 3 coats of clear on your car. Then you have more than enough clear to sand correctly and remove orange peel correctly. also, adding cquartz or any type of coating onto your car and then sanding it is just a waste of time and money. As soon as you do a few strokes, any type of coating that was previously applied will be completely removed. So like i said, the most safe and effective way is getting your car recleard and then sanded troughly to remove orange peel. Im sure you would hate to see burning trough your factory clear or seeing it fail and crack a few years down the road due to how thin you left it from sanding it.
RaskyR1
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- Apr 14, 2008
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I can still see a noticeable improvement in those pics. :xyxthumbs:
When capturing orange peel in pics I've found you have to use the manual focus and make sure your actually locked in on the surface of the paint....easier to do close up IMO.
Kevin Brown
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100% absolutely perfect advice. Certainly worth considering.
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- #30
What PTG readings would you feel comfortable with wetsanding?
I haven't looked into pricing, but I've heard the pricing of adding coats of clear is in the thousands (close to the same cost of repainting the same color) because they have to rough up the surface with 800 grit, and tape up everything. Whereas a dozen coats of CQuartz (approximately $240) is pretty economical and might give you up to 18 mil worth of clear (and a harder clear at that). Mike's tutorial shows he only removed an average of 0.5 mils after it was all done. What am I missing? Do I have microns and mils mixed up somewhere? Help me with my math. Seems like Opticoat 2.0 or Cquartz could potentially give you the extra safety margin you need for wet sanding.
I haven't looked into pricing, but I've heard the pricing of adding coats of clear is in the thousands (close to the same cost of repainting the same color) because they have to rough up the surface with 800 grit, and tape up everything. Whereas a dozen coats of CQuartz (approximately $240) is pretty economical and might give you up to 18 mil worth of clear (and a harder clear at that). Mike's tutorial shows he only removed an average of 0.5 mils after it was all done. What am I missing? Do I have microns and mils mixed up somewhere? Help me with my math. Seems like Opticoat 2.0 or Cquartz could potentially give you the extra safety margin you need for wet sanding.
Kevin Brown
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A micron is 1/1000 of a millimeter.
A mil is 1/1000 of an inch.
Two sheets of printer paper equals approximately:
5.0 to 5.5 mils or 127 to 139.7 microns
Which is not an uncommon thickness reading of a new paint job. This includes primer, base coat, and clear.
A mil is 1/1000 of an inch.
Two sheets of printer paper equals approximately:
5.0 to 5.5 mils or 127 to 139.7 microns
Which is not an uncommon thickness reading of a new paint job. This includes primer, base coat, and clear.
93fox
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- Dec 25, 2010
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Look its pretty simple. I see you didnt read troughly on my last post.... If you put ANY type of coating on your car, whether its opti coat 2.0, cquartz, Gtechniq, Aquartz... once you apply it and sand. you are going to completely remove anything you applied to the car. Meaning, i see your point, but im not sure you quite understand what coatings serve. opti coat 2.0 and cquartz and all the rest are applied for protection. Think of them as a wax on steroids that last a really long time. Its not actual clear you are adding, its a coating. So please take my advice into consideration. I still personally wouldnt sand it. Think about it, you are going to sand it, and if you are considering removing orange peel, you are going to need to take quite some clear off. So by the time you sand, you already removed clear making it thinner than what it already was. Next you need to go aggresive with a wool pad and compound. Anytime you apply a compound on the car, you are removing clear to level out the scratches to make the surface smooth. so by then you already removed a little more clear. Now you are left with really really thin clear. Hell you might not even be left with enough clear to protect the car and sooner or later, it will start getting dull, cracking, etc. So again, even if you put one coat of cquartz, or 100 coats of cquartz... As soon as you start sanding, you will remove it all and your money you spent on the cquartz will pretty much be thrown away. Cquartz and any type of coating is not actual clear that is sprayed on cars. its a whole different thing. So once again, i believe if you want no orange peel and a show car finish, you need to get that car to a body shop so they can spray some more coats of clear.
southbeach
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- Jul 28, 2010
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yep.....wet sand it and spray some clear....and more clear....it is easy for every painter.....should be easy for you to buff after it is done....
Joe@Superior Shine
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- Jun 25, 2009
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Listen to him! If it wasn't for Kevin Brown, I'd still be selling pencils! :xyxthumbs:
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93fox
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- Dec 25, 2010
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:thankyousign:
MirrorFinish
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- Jun 30, 2011
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I will put my 2pence worth in.
I wet sand most cars I do. I have taken plenty of readings on several cars and I find that I take less clear off wet sanding than heavy compounding.
I ran a wet sanding course last month and one panel of the car was wet sanded by hand and the other by Power Gloss with an aggressive yellow pad.
The readings were as follows.
Ford Focus with black metallic paint.
Compounded panel, Readings before were 155um, after 146um
Wet Sanded by hand and DA, 156um, after 148um.
I don't know if you guys use this reading, but several times I have found wet sanding takes off less clear than heavy compounding. Plus there is no heat damage and the 4000 Mirka pads I use are easily polished out.
I only go as far as taking the peaks out and just final sanding past the paint left.
Adding CQuartz or C1 etc will not give any advantage, as the first few hits of paper will just take it off.
I wet sand all OEM paint jobs to get the dreaded peel out, not all of it is removed as some can be in the paint. But, it makes a hell of a difference to the reflections in the car.
I wet sand most cars I do. I have taken plenty of readings on several cars and I find that I take less clear off wet sanding than heavy compounding.
I ran a wet sanding course last month and one panel of the car was wet sanded by hand and the other by Power Gloss with an aggressive yellow pad.
The readings were as follows.
Ford Focus with black metallic paint.
Compounded panel, Readings before were 155um, after 146um
Wet Sanded by hand and DA, 156um, after 148um.
I don't know if you guys use this reading, but several times I have found wet sanding takes off less clear than heavy compounding. Plus there is no heat damage and the 4000 Mirka pads I use are easily polished out.
I only go as far as taking the peaks out and just final sanding past the paint left.
Adding CQuartz or C1 etc will not give any advantage, as the first few hits of paper will just take it off.
I wet sand all OEM paint jobs to get the dreaded peel out, not all of it is removed as some can be in the paint. But, it makes a hell of a difference to the reflections in the car.
MirrorFinish
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- Jun 30, 2011
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I disagree with what you are saying, it is perfectly safe to wet sand a car and take no more clear off than a heavy compound. I wet sand £100,000 Range Rovers all the time and get a great finish taking less paint off then compounding. Plus a body shop will not just apply clear.
93fox
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- Dec 25, 2010
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A body shop will just apply clear. Ive worked at a few body shops. I would know. Another thing, ok you wetsand and remove orange peel. According to you, it dosent take alot of clear when wetsanding. I agree with you. But now tell me this, whats next after wetsanding to remove all those sanding marks? Tell me what you do to achieve a perfect finish after wetsanding.
MirrorFinish
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- Jun 30, 2011
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Easy and this takes off hardly any paint at all, less then 1um of clear. Don't forget once you have finished sanding with 4000 grit paper there are hardly and sanding marks in the paint, just a flat matt surface.
3M yellow pad with yellow top and polish the paint then refine down with Ultrafina on a blue pad.
Most cars I work on have about 60-100um of clear on them, you can take off up to a 1/3 off safely, so on most modern clears a removal of 20-30um is perfectly safe.