Wet Sanding with Rupes Mini?

[TundraPower]

Wet Sanding with Rupes Mini?


Mike, I currently use the GG mini polisher to wet sand in small areas with 3m Trizact 3000-5000 grit disks.

Have you ever used the Rupes Mini for the same purpose?

My theory is to use my Mini for wet sanding in the same capacity as my Duetto...same throw of 12mm.

What are your thoughts?

 

[TundraPower]

Thanks for even acknowledging the idea everyone.

 

[2old2change]

I started to give my opinion but noticed you addressed the question to Mike. I also sand with a GG 3" machine on certain projects with good results. I have also sanded large panels with my Rupes 21 and 5000 grit without issue. I try to keep in mind how much quicker material is being removed. After using a LHR75 of a friend often and only a few minutes of hands on experience with a LHR75E I see no problem using these to sand as long as care is taken to not remove a excessive amount of paint. I usually won't comment on a process or machine unless I have actually used or done the process but these are my thoughts on the subject.

 

[mbkite]

I just follow you and many more on hear still learning.. You do great work so if it works for u you are the leader in wet sanding with the rupes mini.

 

[TundraPower]

I started to give my opinion but noticed you addressed the question to Mike. I also sand with a GG 3" machine on certain projects with good results. I have also sanded large panels with my Rupes 21 and 5000 grit without issue. I try to keep in mind how much quicker material is being removed. After using a LHR75 of a friend often and only a few minutes of hands on experience with a LHR75E I see no problem using these to sand as long as care is taken to not remove a excessive amount of paint. I usually won't comment on a process or machine unless I have actually used or done the process but these are my thoughts on the subject.

Yeah, well Mike didn't answer so I guess it's just you and I. I have the Skorpio sander and it works great, but it consumes so much air my compressor can barely keep up. I am going to sell it and go all electric rather than dump thousands of dollars into another compressor. My Duetto does a superb job with 3000 grit, but cuts way too fast with 2000 grit at least for my level of skill. (You will never catch me using the Duetto with 2000 grit on OEM paint.) Using my 21 as a wet sander would make me very nervous. Well, I'm going to try my Mini on my wife's car with 3000 and 5000 grit paper and see how it works.

 

[2old2change]

Yeah, well Mike didn't answer so I guess it's just you and I. I have the Skorpio sander and it works great, but it consumes so much air my compressor can barely keep up. I am going to sell it and go all electric rather than dump thousands of dollars into another compressor. My Duetto does a superb job with 3000 grit, but cuts way too fast with 2000 grit at least for my level of skill. (You will never catch me using the Duetto with 2000 grit on OEM paint.) Using my 21 as a wet sander would make me very nervous. Well, I'm going to try my Mini on my wife's car with 3000 and 5000 grit paper and see how it works.

Can you obtain any practice panels from a local body shop ? I always keep a couple on hand.

 

[TundraPower]

Can you obtain any practice panels from a local body shop ? I always keep a couple on hand.

I no longer have a good relationship with the body chops in my local area. A rather long story I will not bore you with. I get my practice panels from the automotive junk yard but they are very strict about "scavenging". My wife's car is my practice panel, so far there have been no insurance claims :xyxthumbs:

 

[57BORNTORUN]

Yeah, well Mike didn't answer so I guess it's just you and I. I have the Skorpio sander and it works great, but it consumes so much air my compressor can barely keep up. I am going to sell it and go all electric rather than dump thousands of dollars into another compressor. My Duetto does a superb job with 3000 grit, but cuts way too fast with 2000 grit at least for my level of skill. (You will never catch me using the Duetto with 2000 grit on OEM paint.) Using my 21 as a wet sander would make me very nervous. Well, I'm going to try my Mini on my wife's car with 3000 and 5000 grit paper and see how it works.

Buddy give it time as Mike has been very busy as of late.He needs to step away from the machines.

 

[HateSwirls]

I ONLY wetsand by hand, just like it that way.
However thinking about machine sanding headlights.
Where to find 3" disk at a decent price?

 

[Andr3wilson]

I personally think 12mm is way too aggressive for sanding. Liking maybe levelling some filler or spot prepping a blend area you could use it but for OEM CC?? No sir!! Even the 8mm in the PC/GG is pretty aggressive. I have never had a machine do better than my hand me in sanding.

 

[HateSwirls]

Give me a good sanding block and paper and I'm good to go
Sure it takes little longer but better control and I don't own a bobyshop

 

[TundraPower]

I personally think 12mm is way too aggressive for sanding. Liking maybe levelling some filler or spot prepping a blend area you could use it but for OEM CC?? No sir!! Even the 8mm in the PC/GG is pretty aggressive. I have never had a machine do better than my hand me in sanding.

I really think Rupes intention with the Duetto was to get people to take out severe defects with wet sanding rather than extremely aggressive pads and compounds, then follow up with a milder pad and milder compound. And I agree with them 100% on this approach. 12mm and 3000+ grit works like a charm, but with anything more aggressive than 3000 you'd better be paying real close attention.

 

[Wes Bremec]

Wet sanding by hand I believe gives u more control of where you want to level the paint. IMO using a machine sometimes is overkill if there are only a couple deep imperfections. Sanding discs have been around forever! I think for the most part machine sanding can be overkill and a rarity. Grab some sandpaper and you'll be find.

 

[Mike PhillipsMike Phillips is verified member.]

Hmmm..... let's put this in context... You posted this on Friday night at 7:20pm.

I had clock in on Thursday morning at 7:00am and then after working a full day led a team of people to buff out two projects, a 1959 Impala and a 1965 Ford. Left work about 10:00pm Thursday night. So I'm not a slacker...

Back to work at 7:00am on Friday and worked till 5:30pm and then left for the day.

So 2 hours later you post the below and by then I was probably home having dinner, having logged off the forum for the day.

Time Stamp: 01-31-2014, 07:20 PM

Mike, I currently use the GG mini polisher to wet sand in small areas with 3m Trizact 3000-5000 grit disks. Have you ever used the Rupes Mini for the same purpose? My theory is to use my Mini for wet sanding in the same capacity as my Duetto...same throw of 12mm.

What are your thoughts?

Then you posted your follow-up late Saturday night at almost midnight.

Time Stamp: 02-01-2014, 11:39 PM

Thanks for even acknowledging the idea everyone.

I was at work on Saturday but I was walking the walk, not typing on the forum. Prepped and coated a 2014 Stingray and after that worked on my own truck.

Then your follow-up on Sunday night, (Super Bowl Sunday), at 7:18pm

Time Stamp: 02-02-2014, 07:18 PM

Yeah, well Mike didn't answer so I guess it's just you and I.

I apologize I didn't get to your question sooner. I really try hard to stay up on as many threads on the forum as possible but sometimes I miss a few, at least when they are initially posted. Can't work on the forum 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. Tried that one time... not good for family life or a person's health.


Hang tight and let me see if I can answer some of your questions...

 

[Mike PhillipsMike Phillips is verified member.]

Mike, I currently use the GG mini polisher to wet sand in small areas with 3m Trizact 3000-5000 grit disks.

That's a GREAT way to sand in my opinion. In fact, I have a number of articles showing people this wonderful way to sand by letting the machine do all the work PLUS because the Griot's Garage 3 Polisher is SMALL it's very easy to control so you can do precision sanding in tight areas and close to body lines. I have also taught a class on using this tool to machine sand at MTE for the last three years.

Griot's 3" Mini Polisher works great as a 3" Dampsander

Dampsanding with 3" Griot's Garage Mini Polisher

Have you ever used the Rupes Mini for the same purpose?

No. Not the Rupes Mini, only the Rupes Duetto. The biggest reason I have not used the Mini to machine sand is I tend to show a company's product as a system.

That means showing the Mini with Rupes sanding discs not 3M or Meguiar's sanding discs. As of today, I have not had and still do not have any 3" Rupes Sanding Discs. I'm not sure they even offer them but I'll find out.

Because they do have 5" sanding discs, and they sent me some back in April of 2013 when they sent me the prototypes of the Mini and the Duetto, I have an article showing the Rupes sanding system keeping inside their line of products.



Rupes 5 Inch 2000 & 3000 Grit Sanding Discs

Tested out the Rupes Sanding Discs using the Rupes Duetto and took some pictures to show them in action.

Rupes 5" Interface Pad
This goes between the backing plate and the sanding disc to provide flexible cushion which helps the face of the sanding disc to maintain uniform surface contact when sanding curved panels. It can also help reduce the aggressiveness of the sanding action.

Misting some water from a clean sources onto the panel...

The #2000 disc on the 12 millimeter orbit stroke Duetto cuts fast!

The #2000 sanded the panel down very fast...

D.O.I. = Distinction of Image
How well or clear an image is reflected.

Now take note of the DOI of the reflected florescent tube light on the panel.

Sanded clear paint turns white

Re-sand one half with #3000

Sanded...

Less cut = less paint build-up on the sanding disc....

Gloss and reflectivity coming back. - D.O.I. increasing
The side sanded with the #3000 Grit Rupes Sanding Disc will sand out faster and easier while keeping paint temperature lower.

#2000 Grit Side

#3000 Grit Side

Ready to re-sand the #2000 grit side and then buff-out the sanding marks.

The Rupes Sanding Discs are similar to the Mirka Abralon Sanding discs in form and function. I like the 5" diameter size as it makes these discs more usable for thin body panels as compared to the industry standard of 6" diameter.

You can get all the things I show above here,

Rupes Polishers, Polishes and Pads

My theory is to use my Mini for wet sanding in the same capacity as my Duetto...same throw of 12mm.

What are your thoughts?

As you can see in my how-to article above I stated that with a 12mm orbit stroke the 5" Rupes Sanding Discs on the Rupes Duetto sands VERY FAST.


So "yes" I think the Rupes Mini will work just find as a damp sanding machine using either the Meguiar's Unigrit or the 3M Trizact 3" sanding discs.

I would recommend sticking with the higher grits like #3000 and #5000 if a person is working on FACTORY HARD and FACTORY THIN clearcoat paints and above all... really be focused on the task at hand.


The Griot's 3" polisher will rotate a 3" sanding disc WITH an 1/4" foam interface pad on the 2 and 3 speed setting. For those that have not done this before, this is VERY SLOW and the benefit is it allows you to be VERY CAREFUL.

(something you want to be when wetsanding by machine on factory thin paint)


Last Thursday night we used the Rupes Duetto with the Nanoskin Autoscrub Pads to mechanically decontaminate the paint on the 1959 Impala and on the 1 speed setting the Rupes Mini had no prorotationntaining pad roatiion.

Pictures: 1959 Impala - Mothers Extreme Makeover!


Here's Matt using a 4" Nanoskin Autoscrub Medium Pad on a Rupes Mini 12

I think Matt was on the 1 speed setting and the pad rotated easily...

So my guess is the Rupes Mini is going to easily be able to maintain pad rotation for a thin sanding disc if it can maintain pad rotation of a thick, rubber faced Nanoskin Autoscrub pad and if this is the case, then a person would want to be VERY CAREFUL when using the Rupes Mini to machine wetsand, or machine dampsand.


Sometime thsi week I'll get out a demo hood and give it a try and poast an article about my findings.

Yeah, well Mike didn't answer so I guess it's just you and I.

I have the Skorpio sander and it works great, but it consumes so much air my compressor can barely keep up.

I agree. The Skorpio works great but like all air powered DA Sanders, it's requires a lot of air to run it over entire cars. Like this large project,

1970 Oldsmobile Cutlass Wetsanding Project at Autogeek

I am going to sell it and go all electric rather than dump thousands of dollars into another compressor.

My Duetto does a superb job with 3000 grit, but cuts way too fast with 2000 grit at least for my level of skill. (You will never catch me using the Duetto with 2000 grit on OEM paint.)

Using my 21 as a wet sander would make me very nervous. Well, I'm going to try my Mini on my wife's car with 3000 and 5000 grit paper and see how it works.

Sounds like a good plan...

I personally think 12mm is way too aggressive for sanding. Liking maybe levelling some filler or spot prepping a blend area you could use it but for OEM CC?? No sir!!

Even the 8mm in the PC/GG is pretty aggressive.

I agree with all of the above. My guess is that if you research the background for Rupes tools you'll see they have had a longer history of making tools for body shops where guys are sanding filler or "bondo" to prepare a car for paint and in this situation a more aggressive orbit would be fine.

Now Rupes is entering the car detailing industry and bring tools and products used in the body shop industry to this market that might not be perfectly matched. The good news is Rupes is a company that learns from forums and you'll see them make changes in their line that offers tools and products more suited for car detailing as time goes by.

I have never had a machine do better than my hand me in sanding.

I would repectfully disagree.

It's always faster to sand by machine PLUS it's faster to remove machine sanding marks than it is to remove hand sanding marks. I demonstarted this at this year's Mobile Tech Expo in one of my classes and as a live demonstration on Friday and Saturdar after the "Thursday Education Day", when all the classes are held.

I also demonstarted this at my Detailing Boot Camp Classes to all the students by hand sanding and machine sanding the paint and then equally compounding the paint and after a limited number of passes with the rotary buffer, wiping off the compound reside and allowing all the class to inpspect. What they see are the machine sadnign marks are gone and tracers remain hwere the paint is hand sanded.

I will always machine sand before I will hand sand. The only time I would hand sand is in pllaces where it doesn't make sense to machine sand or it's too risky.

One of the hardest body styles to machine sand are antique cars becuase of the built-in body moldkings or ribs. Yet we still machine sanded this Model A just a few months ago.


Pictures: 1928 Model A - Wetsand, Cut and Buff at Autogeek



Here's Matt and Craig learning to machine wetsand for their first time on a 1928 Model A Hotrod...

Notice how well taped-off this hotrod is? That's because it has a lot of curves and edges and paint is thinnest in these areas. The tape not only protects these areas but it's a visual reminder to avoid sanding on these areas.

Machine Wetsanding
After hand sanding the passenger side of the engine cowel next Robert machine wetsand using a Porter Cable and 6" Trizact #1500 Sanding Disc. I trust Robert with any sanding and buffing project we have here at Autogeek as he has years of experience and is incredibly talented when it comes to the art of polishing paint.

Frank's First Time
Here's Frank learning all about how to wetsand, cut and buff fresh paint here at Autogeek's Show Car Garage!

This was Frank's first visit to our Thursday night gigs and he picked an great night to join us as not only did he get to see the entire process from sanding, cutting, polishing and machine waxing a very cool traditional hot rod but he also was able to helps us restore the original paint on a 1956 Chevy Bel Air.

Den wetsanding the curve of the roof...
It's always great to have Den here to help with these projects. Sometime in the near future we're going to have Den's GTO here for a show car makeover.

Big Boys Toys
After getting the feel for how to machine sand using the 3" Peanut Polishers, I let the guys move up to the big boys toys meaning move up to the 6" 3M Trizact Discs on full size dual action polishers. Below Den is using the Meguiar's G110v2 as a machine dampsander.

Finished
There's also a vidoe in the link above where I show the paint is hologram-free after sanding and buffing this hotrod Model A.

I really think Rupes intention with the Duetto was to get people to take out severe defects with wet sanding rather than extremely aggressive pads and compounds, then follow up with a milder pad and milder compound. And I agree with them 100% on this approach.

I agree too... also taught the first Meguiar's Unigrit Machine Dampsanding class to the public on this topic at MTE back in 2010 along with the idea of sanding out defects instead of aggressivley compounding out defects.

Pictures from Mobile Tech Expo 2010

IF you look at the sanding backing plate on the G110v2 the Meguiar's system was so new I didn't even have a production backing plate at the time of the class, this was a prototype backing plate and thus it was blank, as in no writing or text on it. Just white paper.

Production backing plates look like this,


Meguiar's Sanding Backing Plate #S6BP 6 inch
Back side

12mm and 3000+ grit works like a charm, but with anything more aggressive than 3000 you'd better be paying real close attention.

Completely agree.

Wet sanding by hand I believe gives u more control of where you want to level the paint. IMO using a machine sometimes is overkill if there are only a couple deep imperfections. Sanding discs have been around forever! I think for the most part machine sanding can be overkill and a rarity. Grab some sandpaper and you'll be find.

I have a wetsanding project coming up and my choice will be to machine sand everything. The only places that will be hand sanded are the places where machine sanding doesn't make sense, can't be done safely and would be too risky. This project is coming up real fast...

Jay's new muscle car projects - Wetsand, cut and buff...


That's just me though...

 

[TundraPower]

Thanks Mike! I wish I could figure out how to make big messages like that, inserting quotes from other posts.

 

[Mike PhillipsMike Phillips is verified member.]

Thanks Mike! I wish I could figure out how to make big messages like that, inserting quotes from other posts.

I have an article on that....

First, it helps if you're using Internet Explorer as most/all the other browses, as GREAT as they are cannot take advantage of all the features offered in vBulletin. So for this reason I use IE for the forum and Firefox for other tasks. Don't care for Chrome due to Google ever becoming my big brother.

Second, you need to stretch out your message box. There are pictures showing how to do this in this article,

How to expand the message box



Then you want to switch over to Editor Mode so you can see the raw source code behind the WYSIWYG display. There are pictures showing how to do this in this article,

How to use the "Editor Mode" to break a single quoted message up into smaller quoted sections



And of course, it helps to have a monitor in portrait position to take advantage of stretching out the message box.

 

[WRAPT C5Z06]

Great job, Mr. Mike.

General question, how do you tell when to stop sanding? I know this might be a very hard question to answer.

 

[Flash Gordon]

Great job, Mr. Mike.

General question, how do you tell when to stop sanding? I know this might be a very hard question to answer.

I stop sanding when I can barely still see a trace of orange peel. That way I know I am safe plus it leaves room for future polishing

 

[Mike PhillipsMike Phillips is verified member.]

I stop sanding when I can barely still see a trace of orange peel.

That way I know I am safe plus it leaves room for future polishing

Likewise for factory paint. If I'm sanding factory paint, I try to stop right as the peel is almost 100% gone. Factory clear is thin so I'd rather be safe than sorry. Plus remember, all of the below removes a measurable amount of paint,

1. Compounding
2. Polishing
3. Final polishing

so by the time you remove your sanding marks you'll have reached your goal.


For a custom paint job, I start by talking to the owner and if possible the painter. If plenty of clear has been sprayed then I sand till all signs of orange peel are removed.