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Ford Fest

Ford Fest

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I'm posting this for a friend that has ran into issues detailing a RED 2011 GT500 (less than 10,000 miles) he recently purchased. He has been detailing his own cars for 20+ years, but this one has got us scratching our heads. Please post up if you have any ideas.

Thank you in advance,

Bob

His story. . .

I use a Porta cable 7424xp & Lake country pads I use these 2 products Menzerna FG400 & Megs 205.

The previous owner was a busy guy and has very little knowledge about detailing, he cleans & added wax/polish the car, quick all in 1 type stuff.

I start off by washing the car down with Dawn Ultra (blue) 1/2 bottle to 2 gallons of water, I washed the car 2 times & rinse in-between.

I then clay bared the car & begin to cut polish (Orange pad) the car to remove some marks & minor scratches & to make the color pop.

I start to polished on the hood and I see that the old polish the P.O. used is becoming very splotchy/not coming off & looks awful, I contact the P.O. & he tells me he used Nu-Finish in the orange container(stuff is crap).

I spent 6 hours on the hood

I have tried everything I can think of to remove this $hit.
Dawn
Liquid Glass pre cleaner
3000 w&d on my buffer
Different house hold cleaners
WD 40
many different polishes & cutting materials

The only thing that I found touches it is Isopropyl & it is a ton of work trying to get this to remove the old polish, I put on a cloth & you really have to work at it.
I went to a detailing shop and asked and he said ### that strange & to try Alcohol (not to drink) witch I was already.

Anyways if any of you guys have suggestions I am all ears.
 
Ford Fest said:
I use a Porter cable 7424xp & Lake country pads I use these 2 products

Menzerna FG400
& Megs 205.


I start to polished on the hood and I see that the old polish the P.O. used is becoming very splotchy/not coming off & looks awful,

I contact the P.O. & he tells me he used Nu-Finish in the orange container (stuff is crap).

I spent 6 hours on the hood

I have tried everything I can think of to remove this .
Dawn
Liquid Glass pre cleaner
3000 w&d on my buffer
Different house hold cleaners
WD 40
many different polishes & cutting materials

The only thing that I found touches it is Isopropyl & it is a ton of work trying to get this to remove the old polish,
Click to expand...


I'm going to try to make this real simple.

Menzerna FG400 is an aggressive compound. When hand or machine applied it will remove paint.


Anything sitting or bonded to the top surface of the paint is coming off.


The only reasons FG400 would NOT remove paint and thus remove the Nu Finish could be,


1. Too soft of foam pad on the Porter Cable polisher
You're friend should be using a foam cutting pad.


2. Too large of a foam pad on the Porter Cable polisher
In order for any dual action polisher to work the pad MUST rotate. It cannot simply vibrate against the surface. When you use too large of a foam pad on a PC polisher the tool does not have enough power to rotate the pad effectively or efficiently.


3. Too thick of a foam pad
Same as above. THICK foam absorbs all the energy coming out of these types of tools and dissipates it. This shows up to your eyes as lack of pad rotation.


4. Not running the polisher wide-open on the 6 speed setting
Again, the pad must rotate in order to push the abrasives OVER the paint so they abrade or take little bites out of the paint and thus remove some paint and the Nu Finish. This is also how swirls, scratches and any other type of "below surface defects" is removed and that's by removing paint and thus leveling the surface.

5. Not pushing down hard enough against the head of the polisher
I'm the guy that wrote the original article showing my hand pressing a Porter Cable against a bathroom scale and then taking a picture to show the number of pounds on the scale indicator and thus showing how hard to push down against the head of the polisher.

You need to push down about 10 to 15 pounds. Hard enough to push the abrasives into the paint but not so hard as to cause the pad to spin too slowly or not spin at all.

6. Moving the polisher too fast over the paint
This is called skimming and skimming doesn't work for removing paint.




I cover all of the above in my how to book The Complete Guide to a Show Car Shine plus a ton more information and also wrote a troubleshooting guide for this tool back in 2004.

Here's the more recent version


DA Polisher Trouble Shooting Guide



I can't see any reason why ANY one-step cleaner/wax which is what Nu Finish is could prevent Menzerna FG400 in the right hand with a Porter Cable from removing paint and thus removing the Nu Finish.

Send your buddy the link to this thread so he can read the above and click on the links.


:dunno:
 
Here's a portion of the article I wrote in 2004 that shows downward pressure...


The below diagram represents swirls and scratches evenly distributed throughout your car's finish from a horizontal point of view.

2swirlsinpaint.JPG


You can see that in order to remove these below surface defects you need to remove the highest areas of the paint until they are level with the lowest depths of the deepest scratches. In essence, you must remove paint.


When using the G100 Dual Action Polisher to remove defects, (This is different then merely applying a polish or a wax because you're trying to remove paint), you need to use a slow arm speed, overlap you passes by 50% and apply between 15 pounds and 20 pounds of pressure onto the head of the polisher.

To get an idea of how hard this is to push down, simply place your polisher onto an everyday bathroom scale and then press down on the head of the polisher and take note of how hard you're pushing. If you like, you can even tape some heavy plastic around the scale as you can see that I did in the below picture and actually turn the polisher on and practice pushing down as you move the polisher around. Also listen to the sound of the motor to get an idea of how it sounds at the pressure you are applying. Make sure you have someone to hold the scale in place when you do this.

15 pounds of pressure on the head of the polisher
215poundsM83dacp.jpg


20 pounds of pressure on the head of the polisher
220poundsM83dacp.jpg


Move the polisher in different directions
You also want to go in at least two different directions, for example, from where you're standing, side to side, then front to back. You can also move the polisher in a kitty/corner fashion for complete, thorough and uniform cleaning action.

2PolisherPathOfTravel.jpg


Only work a small area at a time
This will vary according to the shape, curve or body line of the panel you are polishing but for example on a large flat panel, you want to stay around a 12" to 18" squared area. The point being, don't try to work to large of an area all at once or you won't remove the defects equally everywhere.

Overlap your sections
When you move on to a new section, overlap into the old section for a uniform end results.


If you're applying a pure polish, or a polish/wax or a pure wax, then you can polish larger areas at a time, use a faster arm speed, use less pressure and make fewer passes because when applying these types of products you're not trying to remove paint, merely do a good job of working the product in and leaving behind a thin even coating.

This does not apply when using a cleaner/wax like ColorX on neglected paint because in this situation you're again trying to remove paint.

The point of the cleaning step is to remove the defects. Because the G100's polishing action is gentle and therefore safe, it takes time to remove small particles of paint in an effort to remove a defect, so concentrate hard at doing your best work when doing the cleaning step, don't skimp out during the step and try to rush it, your results will reflect that you didn't do a good job the first time.

:xyxthumbs:
 
Video: Mark your backing plate to make it easy to see pad rotation


MarkYourBackingPlate01.jpg


Here's a quick video that show how and why to mark your backing plate to see and monitor pad rotation while doing any correction or polishing steps.



[video=youtube_share;QM8PnDooZP8&hd=1"]How To Check Pad Rotation on a DA Polisher -...[/video]​




5" Backing Plate
Lake Country 5" DA Backing Plate <-- Get this one as the Velcro will match Lake Country Pads


The 5" Lake Country Backing Plates fits all popular dual action polishers including Porter Cable, Griot's Garage and Meguiar's.



Lake Country

5.5" Flat Pads

In order from the most to the least aggressive

Yellow = Cutting pad (most aggressive)
Orange = Light Cutting Pad
White = Polishing Pad
Black = Finishing Pad
Blue = Waxing Pad (softest)

5_5FlatPads01.jpg




I'm thinking the orange foam cutting pad shoud be more than enough with the FG400 to abrade off the NuFinish.

:)
 
Mike,

I can't thank you enough for taking the time to reply to this thread. I've shared it with several of our friends and I think we all learned something new from it. It sounds like I need to pickup some new pads. When I bought my PC Show Car kit last year, it came with the 6.5" LC pads in the same colors shown above. These are quite a bit larger and thicker than the pads in your thread. It sounds like I will have better results with 5.5" flat pads.

I'll update this thread with the results of the new techniques.

Thanks again,

Bob
 
Can I just add... I think you used WAY too much Dawn too. What sized bottle did you use half of? An 8oz or a 32oz?

I initially was thinking that the residue was going to be left over Dawn but it appears not to be.
 
From your description of the polish sticking to the paint it sounds like you are dealing with oxidation on the hood.
 
Ford Fest said:
I'm posting this for a friend that has ran into issues detailing a RED 2011 GT500 (less than 10,000 miles) he recently purchased.
Click to expand...


Nicholas@Autowerx said:
From your description of the polish sticking to the paint it sounds like you are dealing with oxidation on the hood.
Click to expand...

That would be a lot of oxidation for a Mustang this new. Especially considering clearcoats don't oxidize like old single stage paints. See this article,

The practical differences between single stage paints and a clear coat paints


If it is oxidation, then cleaning your pads would often would be vitally important.



Ford Fest said:
Mike,

I can't thank you enough for taking the time to reply to this thread.
Click to expand...

No problemo....


Ford Fest said:
I've shared it with several of our friends and I think we all learned something new from it. It sounds like I need to pickup some new pads. When I bought my PC Show Car kit last year, it came with the 6.5" LC pads in the same colors shown above.

These are quite a bit larger and thicker than the pads in your thread.


It sounds like I will have better results with 5.5" flat pads.

I'll update this thread with the results of the new techniques.

Thanks again,

Bob
Click to expand...


Definitely get better performance out of any PC style DA Polisher if you use 5.5" thin foam pads. I share this little factoid in my how-to book. See my Signature Line.



:)
 
If you're anywhere near St. Louis I'd be happy to try and help a fellow AG-er. I have some other pads/polishes/tools etc.
 
It is almost impossible to add anything valuable after Mr. Phillips comments, but it seems your PC is under powered for the job.
If it were me, I would try a rotary with microfiber (and a foam interface), and FG400; Low speed settings, like 600RPMs, and four passes only (because it is dangerously abrasive), clean it and check the results.
 
Heisenberg said:
If you're anywhere near St. Louis I'd be happy to try and help a fellow AG-er. I have some other pads/polishes/tools etc.
Click to expand...

Thank you for the offer. My friend that I posted for is actually in Canada.
 
I'm planning to purchase a 6 pack of the 5.5" flat pads for my PC742. I need to make a decision on which color combo to go with. If I simply take one of each, I will need to select a color for the extra pad. The color options are yellow, orange, white, blue and black. I'm just using these product on my own cars, one is a black garage queen if it matters.

The pads I currently have are . . .
LC CCS 6.5"
2 orange
2 white
1 blue
LC CCS 4"
2 orange
2 white
1 blue
1 black
Not sure what brand these are, they can with the PC package
5" flat
2 red

Any suggestions on which 5.5" flat pad colors I should go with? Should I keep the 6.5" pads or sell them? Lastly, I have Pinnacle Swirl, Polish, Souveran, but do not have a compound. Should I stay within the family and get the Pinnacle compound or go with Wolfgang Uber compound?

Any suggestions would be appreciated
 
Ford Fest said:
I'm planning to purchase a 6 pack of the 5.5" flat pads for my PC742. I need to make a decision on which color combo to go with. If I simply take one of each, I will need to select a color for the extra pad. The color options are yellow, orange, white, blue and black. I'm just using these product on my own cars, one is a black garage queen if it matters.

The pads I currently have are . . .
LC CCS 6.5"
2 orange
2 white
1 blue
LC CCS 4"
2 orange
2 white
1 blue
1 black
Not sure what brand these are, they can with the PC package
5" flat
2 red

Any suggestions on which 5.5" flat pad colors I should go with? Should I keep the 6.5" pads or sell them? Lastly, I have Pinnacle Swirl, Polish, Souveran, but do not have a compound. Should I stay within the family and get the Pinnacle compound or go with Wolfgang Uber compound?

Any suggestions would be appreciated
Click to expand...

You stated you had Menz FG400 in the OP? I'm assuming you're still having troubles with your friends Mustang?

For Pads, I use the LC 5.5 CCS Smart Pads
Yellow - most aggressive
Orange - for moderate correction
White - Polish (i.e. Pinnacle Advanced Finishing Polish, 205 or SF4000/SF4500)
Blue - To apply sealant or wax

and Hydo Thin Pads
Cyan - most aggressive
Tangerine - Polish
Crimson - apply sealant or wax

I would also suggest (for the 7424xp) that you get 5" Megs Backing Plate and Megs Micro Fiber Pads. This in combination with the FG400 will work fast. I'm assuming you're still trying to sort out the friends Mustang.

Again, always perform a test spot and take paint measurements before and after your test spot.
 
paul_g said:
You stated you had Menz FG400 in the OP? I'm assuming you're still having troubles with your friends Mustang?

For Pads, I use the LC 5.5 CCS Smart Pads
Yellow - most aggressive
Orange - for moderate correction
White - Polish (i.e. Pinnacle Advanced Finishing Polish, 205 or SF4000/SF4500)
Blue - To apply sealant or wax

and Hydo Thin Pads
Cyan - most aggressive
Tangerine - Polish
Crimson - apply sealant or wax

I would also suggest (for the 7424xp) that you get 5" Megs Backing Plate and Megs Micro Fiber Pads. This in combinatiuon with the FG400 will work fast. I'm assuming you're still trying to sort out the friends Mustang.

Again, always perform a test spot and take paint measurements before and after your test spot.
Click to expand...

Sorry for the confusion. This is just for me and my cars. My friend is in Canada.

I wa trying to order the pads Mime recommended, just wasn't sure how to mix the 6 pads.
 
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