What to expect with boat gel coat?

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Montyx5

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Ok, I received my Flex rotary(PE14) father's day gift and DG products to help with 35' 5th wheel and boat. I started with my oxidized boat today which is a 2000 248cc Crown Line, white and maroon gel coat. I started with DG561 with a wool leveling pad early in the day looking to move onto DG501/601 followed by 105/601. A test spot the previous day showed good results, but looking at it today, with the sun moved, it looks swirled(holograms?). I noticed that I had swirl marks from the compounding midday as the sun moved, really noticeable in the moron gel coat. I needed to find some pin stripping that separated the gel coat colors and went to locale body shop supply. Talking to an employee that had experience with his boat and suggested Wizards Turbo cut. This removed the swirls and worked longer than the DG561. As the sun set I used halogen lighting and seen that the areas that I did earlier looked orange pealed as well as swirled. I have been able to remove the Orange peel with 2-5 applications of the DG561 combing the two for the final application or two brings a fairly flush surface without heavy swirls or scratches. I am assuming that DG501/601 followed by 105/601 will bring the boat out to perfection.

The boat looked perfect on delivery (ordered it new) and am wondering if what I am seeing (a little orange peel effect) is normal for a boat. Am I just being to picky? What would have been a better choice of produces and in what order? I know that it should look better than it ever did after compounding, since it looked awesome when it was new. What can I do to simplify the process? Products?

Monty
 
Nothing from those that have used these DG products?Feed back please
Worked on it for a while yesterday evening into the dark. In the day light it looks great using the Wizard product but at night under halogen light I see the orange peel. Again using DG561 first removes it in one or two applications. I am wondering if DG501 would work the same as the Wizard product in removing the marks left by the DG561. I am trying to avoid applying any wax at this point as I need to replace the pin stripping that separates the different color gel coats.
Also what is the working time once DG501 and DG601 is mixed. I am assuming the bonding that is stated for the DG601 will cause the mixture to gel or harden to some point. What have other experienced with this? Is it known whether oxygen plays a role in the reaction. If it is than purging the bottle that contains the mixture with nitrogen would retard the reaction allowing sections to be completed as work progresses.
Thanks
Monty
 
Generally I don't expect to see orange peel effect in gelcoat. The reason is, how the boats are made in a mold. You could have some orange peel effects if you have a painted hull or graphics, but you don't.


As far as DG products, I'm not real familiar with thier products to
give any meaningful advice. I did buy some 561 for my sons to try and
they like it , but more of a heavy cleaner not as a compound.
 
I have been playing with a 32' gel coat 5th wheel for more years than I care to remember. Not sure about the orange peel as the only way I have alleviated that on paint was wet sanding. Now for oxidation I work in the shade and the best I have found to date is DG 652 then apply 601 then top with 105 in that order. All compounding done with a wool pad and a rotary. 501,601,105 applied by hand with cotton applicators. If the oxidation is very severe 3M's rocks in a bottle may qualify followed by 652. I have tried quite a few products over the years, Carnuba's are worthless in Arizona, Liquid Glass, Klasse, Zaino AIO all lasted at the most 3-4 months. The Duragloss 601/105 is going on 7 months now. I have one section that I mixed 601/105 then applied 601 then 105 to see what it looks like when everything fails or the next time I have enough ambition to polish 900 + square feet of fiber glass.

Dave
 
As far as the orange peel, it is the only way I can describe it. It is no where the depth normally seen on paint, its much shallower. I can only see it with the light by its shadowing and removes with the DG561. In the same place on both sides of the boat it is a little heaver and gave a very visible dull look that I had been trying to remove with products that were not aggressive enough to do so. I suspect that it is the result of the tension at the surface that was created when the gel coat cures. I also looked at the fiberglass nose and tail cones on my 5th wheel with the light and it was there in places also. Looking at the boat in the day light there is a very slight difference in the shade of white where the orange peel was removed and is adjacent to the areas where it remains. So I guess it is something that I didn't need to worry about except for the two problem areas.

Sounds like the DG562 (thanks Dave) is what I will need for the 5th wheel side walls as they are Owen Corning fiber glass panels and suspect that the gel coat is much thinner. As far as the 601/*** applications, I was going to try and save steps by mixing them. From reading through the forum I was under the impression that this is as good as doing them separately. Yes, No, Maybe? Any idea how the mixtures stores for short periods of time? This is something I do not recall being mentioned, may have missed it.

Glen I have already read almost all your posts in researching this endeavor. When it comes to boat and especially camper care there is limited information compared to the automotive areas. I will take some pictures of the before and after to post as well as the processes. I will also document the 5th wheel project that will follow the boat. It requires a thorough cleaning/polishing as well as some maintenance as allot of the caulking is dried and cracking.

Thank you all for your replies.
Monty
 
I tried mixing 601/501 and it became a lot thicker fast. It was harder to work on the fiber glass with the rotary than just the 501. The Arizona heat may have caused the problems I was having. I finally went back to applying 601 seperately which worked better for me and since It was on my own equipment time and money was not a factor.

Dave
 
i worked as a patcher at Neptunus buffing boats and prepping molds 20 years ago. if your not familiar with Neptunus, they were a major manufacturer of million dollar yachts. the only thing that we used to repair the gel in any of the patches/repairs/restorations of hulls was meguiar's professional mirror glaze products, and therefore to me, meguiars was always synonymous with marine care, unitl i found it retailing for automotive use..

ive kinda left meguiars for any of my automotive details in the last couple of years due to the silicones and fillers, but the stuff we used to get in years ago was amazing on gel. the heavy cut compound was orange and gritty (# 2 i think), then the polish was cream coloured and smooth, (i think it was called medium cut cleaner).

Also, i didnt get it from your post, but you may want to try foam pads for the polishing step with the DG. the wool may be too aggressive and may be causing your holograms.
 
primo spaghetti said:
i worked as a patcher at Neptunus buffing boats and prepping molds 20 years ago.
Click to expand...


Hi Primo,
I was just wondering if there is a differance in mold (tooling)gelcoats and final product gelcoats?
 
Last edited:
Montyx5 said:
Looking at the boat in the day light there is a very slight difference in the shade of white where the orange peel was removed and is adjacent to the areas where it remains. Monty
Click to expand...

Often what can happen in gelcoat, is that the pigments fade before the polyester/resins
breakdown. So you may to have to cut a little deeper in to the fresh polyester/resin
in order to bring back a consistant color. We see this more in the white and pastel pigmant
gelcoats.
 
KKYS said:
Hi Primo,
I was just wondering if there is a differance in mold (tooling)gelcoats and final product gelcoats?
Click to expand...

in my experience there was a big difference. Polyester gelcoat is used for making tooling masters and molds where good gloss retention of the surface is of paramount importance. A high gloss finish of the molds surface allows for easier release of your parts and thus extends the life of the mold. I believe most tooling gel has both polyester and vinyl ester products, where as the finishing gel has epoxy or polyester products (but don't quote my science, i just ran the buffer and the mold release wax!).

all of our molds were always orange tooling gel to give the mold surface a strong, scratch resistant surface, which in essence released the hull/deck or whatever part we were tooling easily and flawlessly (in theory)..
 
primo spaghetti said:
in my experience there was a big difference. Polyester gelcoat is used for making tooling masters and molds where good gloss retention of the surface is of paramount importance. A high gloss finish of the molds surface allows for easier release of your parts and thus extends the life of the mold. I believe most tooling gel has both polyester and vinyl ester products, where as the finishing gel has epoxy or polyester products (but don't quote my science, i just ran the buffer and the mold release wax!).

all of our molds were always orange tooling gel to give the mold surface a strong, scratch resistant surface, which in essence released the hull/deck or whatever part we were tooling easily and flawlessly (in theory)..
Click to expand...

Good imput Primo, maybe Nick and PBMG can help us out with more imformation, being that they have better connections with those that know.
 
With day time temps in the 90s, I waited for evening and finished the one side I was working on. I followed from your experiences Dave and applied the DG products separately. It looked great till the lights came on. I will give a foam pad a try with the 561 and see how that works. I suppose that as long as it looks good in the day light and water all is good. Once I get the entire boat finished I could always do some spot touchups if it's called for. I did get a pic of the orange peel affect. Is this possibly a case of too much mold release product being used?
Monty
IMG_4452_sized.jpg
 
Montyx5 said:
With day time temps in the 90s, I waited for evening and finished the one side I was working on. I followed from your experiences Dave and applied the DG products separately. It looked great till the lights came on. I will give a foam pad a try with the 561 and see how that works. I suppose that as long as it looks good in the day light and water all is good. Once I get the entire boat finished I could always do some spot touchups if it's called for. I did get a pic of the orange peel affect. Is this possibly a case of too much mold release product being used?
Monty
IMG_4452_sized.jpg
Click to expand...

that a very interesting pic...i see your orange peel description now, but im not convinced that is what it is. could be a couple of things (again it is hard to see the pic), but if it is not just badly oxidized (which is my first guess) it could possibly be pattern from the mold or you can see the glass cloth behind the gel...out of curiosity, is that imperfection above the water line?

another product we used to use (I know its not going to help you if you already have the duragloss), is aquabuff 1000 and 2000 (it is a white compuond we used it on white hulls mostly in case of porosity). might be something else to try, because the DG may not have the bite you need if it is just really chalky and oxidized.
 
Had good luck with a pass of M105 and a wool on a rotary, not sure how bad your oxidation is though
 
Try the 652 and a foam pad. I have had good luck with it and never saw any swirls etc. The 652 has removed moderate oxidation for me on fiber glass and left a shiny slick finish.

Dave
 
The orange peel effect is only on the white gel coat above and below the water line. Did a little more testing this evening and this is what I found. It is visible before any work is done but it is not real obvious exept the two problem areas. Lightly compounding with wool/561 it is real obvious. One or two applications with the wool/561 and moderate pressure it is gone but dull. Using a orange cutting pad/561 will not remove it easily and using it after removing the orange peel with wool still leaves it a bit dull. The best combination is using the wool/561 followed by orange pad/Wizard. The 561 is a SMAT I believe and the Wiz. is a Dat. Wiz. will not remove it easily neither but does finish nicely. I will be getting some 652 to see if it can replace the pricy Wiz. product. It sounds like the 652 is a DAT product and a step lighter than the 561, which should also work well on the 5th wheel.
I finished the starboard side and it looks good except for some missed swirls and orange peel that is visible when caught by the sun just right. I will have to revisit these areas after finishing the rest of it. The only way to finish to perfection is to check at night under the lights. I will work the port side the best I can in daylight and touch up at night before moving to the next step. This week is calling for 90s and even 100 degrees for highs and I have no option for shade so working at night might be a better choice. Here are a few pics: one of the finished side, one showing the oxidation level that is mostly on the upper half and of the orange peel problem area just forward of the windshield before and after.
Finished Side:
MG_4488.jpg

Oxidation Level:

MG_4484.jpg


Orange Peel Problem Area:

MG_4467.jpg


Orange Peel Problem Area Fixed:

MG_4470.jpg


Again Thanks for everones input,
Monty
 
Nice work Monty - thanks for posting.

Sorry I didn't have anything to add, but I will take away a lot from your experience.

Ron
 
Primo, In the problem areas in front of the windshield, I have what looks like really fine pitting(pinholes) after compounding out the oxidation and leveling the orange peel effect. Is this the porosity that you mentioned in an earlier reply or something else? I have left it at this stage and moved on as I need to stop the bleeding somewhere. Out of curiosity; What is the porosity caused by and the remedy to remove this defect? Also, I tried the pad, as you mentioned, and it was not enough to remove the heavy oxidation. As a follow up to the wool pad it did remove the swirls but sill left the same amount of haze.

Dave, I tried the 652 (Thanks for the suggestion) and that took care of the swirls and reduces the haze by half. When referring to the haze, this is at night under the lights. By day it adds a little deeper color to the maroon and improved clarity throughout. It worked faster, left less haze and cost much less than the Wizard stuff.

Before I had the 652, I played around a little with some of the other product I had. What I found was that with a quick application of PO106 with LC-CCS pads at low to medium speeds removed almost any remaining haze under the lights and an improvement in clarity, gloss and an even deeper moron by day. This may be a little overboard, but I figured I have taken it this far, it can't hurt and it shouldn't take no more than an hour per side.

As I am working on this boat and looking at the 5th wheel, which is my next project, it is looking to be about two miles long and growing.

Thanks you for all the input, I do appreciate it.
Monty
 
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