Where do looks come from?

[budman3]

This is a topic that has confused me for quite some time now and it seems like everyone has a different opinion about it. I asked a similar question on a different forum and got mixed answers. I see a lot of uncertainty on this forum as well.

So back to the main question, where do the looks of the vehicles we detail come from???

-When a vehicle is 95-99.9% swirl and scratch free (with few RIDS still present), does the look of the finish come from the polish(es) used or the LSP(s) used?
-Can 2 final polishes (used per MFG specs), removing all micromarring & swirls after compounding (not including RIDS), create different appearances, on the same vehicle?
-Can 2 different LSPs used on the same polished surface create different looks?

I'm interested to hear everyone's opinion and experiences. Thanks!
:buffing:

 

[makdaddy626]

-Can 2 final polishes (used per MFG specs), removing all micromarring & swirls after compounding (not including RIDS), create different appearances, on the same vehicle?

yes, I think so, because I don't think ANY polish will remove ALL micromarring etc., I think many will remove ALL VISIBLE marring, but some will still finish better than others leaving the paint smoother. While you won't be able to detect any visible imperfetions by themselves the overall picture will be affected.

-Can 2 different LSPs used on the same polished surface create different looks?

Definately! Since any LSP is going to leave a layer of something between your eyes and the paint, it has the potential to alter the light that reflects off it. The differences are usually very subtle because everyone tries to make their product clear. I suspect some intentionally don't make it completely invisible though, allowing it darken paint, or adding something to reflect more light.

 

[Jimmie]

Between two polishes=polished and cleaned down to bare paint a very minimal difference if any. You're looking at the same jeweled paint.
Between two LSP's=absolutely a big difference in some. I've witnessed one carnauba make white paint look much darker than another.

IMO

 

[ZoranC]

When a vehicle is 95-99.9% swirl and scratch free (with few RIDS still present), does the look of the finish come from the polish(es) used or the LSP(s) used?

It comes from the paint.

 

[budman3]

It comes from the paint.

So once a panel is painted (fresh), that's the best it's going to look? No polish, wax or sealant will make it look better? So would you say that everyone should throw Souveran away because it won't make paint look any better?

Mak- Thanks for your reply. I agree that LSPs can change the looks of vehicles. Your theory/statement about polishes does make some sense to me. If what you are saying is true, a perfect finish under halogens could look better when a final polish is 'burnished'? I'm not fully convinced that "Polish X" is going to look better than "Polish Z" if all of the swirling and marring are completely removed. Can the polishing not seen under halogens be enough to create a visible difference between polishes? I can see how its possible but not sure if it is worth the extra effort for a slight improvement...

Jimmie- Thanks for your response... I share the same feelings.

 

[makdaddy626]

It comes from the paint.

Sure, MOST of the look is from the paint, but the question is, can a difference be seen between polishes, or between LSPs... I can't see how anyone could say there is NO difference. Apply an old fashioned sealant to half a car (KSG) and Souveran on the other side. There is a difference.

Both will look good, both will look similar, but definately not the same.

 

[Showroom Shine]

Just My Opinion
I think most of what we see in a cars finish that is free of swirls and micro marring is the paint, reflecting the light back to the eye. I think what we see also has alot to do with the light that we see it with. eg: sun, white light, blue light, moon light, halogen lights, etc. I also think the clear coat quality and thickness adds to or takes away from the final view. Depth !Color also adds or diminishes the final view too. I've seen new expensive cars in the showroom, with orange peel and paint imperfections.
Product selection also has alot to do with appearance. Simply put some products are better than others, some work better on different colors.
My final thought , which just came to mind, that also determines the final look is Application. How was the product applied.
There are alot of variablies that can add to or diminish the the LOOK!

 

[ZoranC]

So once a panel is painted (fresh), that's the best it's going to look? No polish, wax or sealant will make it look better? So would you say that everyone should throw Souveran away because it won't make paint look any better?

It should be me rolling the eyes as little thinking results in following:

Polish A vs. Polish B will not make paint look any different as long as both are capable of achieving same level of "correction". Just like Sandpaper A vs Sandpaper B will not make wood any different looking as long as they both level that wood to same level of uniformity. Final result is directly dependant on starting material assuming all oher variables are same (person and polishes capable of achieving highest possible level of "leveling").

 

[makdaddy626]

It should be me rolling the eyes as little thinking results in following:

Polish A vs. Polish B will not make paint look any different as long as both are capable of achieving same level of "correction". Just like Sandpaper A vs Sandpaper B will not make wood any different looking as long as they both level that wood to same level of uniformity. Final result is directly dependant on starting material assuming all oher variables are same (person and polishes capable of achieving highest possible level of "leveling").

It doesn't take much MORE thinking to understand that the question being asked isn't, will two polishes or waxes of EXACTLY the same abilities create the same look...

Maybe the original question should be rephrased... Are all polishes equal in their ability to "correct"... In other words, is there a difference in sandpaper A and sandpaper B that would result in a difference in the final appearance of the paint. I think the answer is YES.

 

[ZoranC]

Sure, MOST of the look is from the paint, but the question is, can a difference be seen between polishes, or between LSPs... I can't see how anyone could say there is NO difference.

Question on polishes has been answered before.

Question on LSPs is missing the point because it is as slippery as asking where look of a woman comes from, does it come from her makeup. No, her look comes from her. Result of makeup (LSP) is appearance of her look. Those are two significantly different things that on surface seem same and are thus extremely easy to mix up during thinking and conversation. But they are not one and the same.

 

[ZoranC]

Maybe the original question should be rephrased... Are all polishes equal in their ability to "correct"... In other words, is there a difference in sandpaper A and sandpaper B that would result in a difference in the final appearance of the paint. I think the answer is YES.

If that is the question then it is a question that should not be asked as answer is obvious to everyone. If all polishes were equal in their ability to correct (even more, if all polishes were equal in their ability to correct all the paints and all the clear coats) we would not be having this many brands out there and we would not be reaching for XYZ instead of ABC. We would be having just one company/brand. Just like one sandpaper does not work equally good on plastic as it does on wood, or equally good on this kind of wood vs. that kind of wood.

 

[makdaddy626]

Question on polishes has been answered before.

Question on LSPs is missing the point because it is as slippery as asking where look of a woman comes from, does it come from her makeup. No, her look comes from her. Result of makeup (LSP) is appearance of her look. Those are two significantly different things that on surface seem same and are thus extremely easy to mix up during thinking and conversation. But they are not one and the same.

Yes, there's a big difference in what something "looks like" and how it "appears" - now, see if you can guess which one people are really asking about when they say "will a wax make my paint look different" I don't think they're looking for a physics lesson myself, they just want to know if their eyes will see something different.

Or, maybe I'm underthinking it... maybe the answer requires a re-examinination of what we think of as "reality" - we don't really "see" paint at all... only light waves being reflected by what we percieve as solid objects (maybe they're not solid... we're stuck relying on our 5 senses and their limited ability to perceive things)... so no, polish and LSP won't change what the paint looks like... just what happens to the light before and after it's reflected and enters into our eyes causing us to believe it's different when anyone should be able to know that what the paint looks like underneath it hasn't changed, (well, as much as we can "know" anything since we're stuck only "knowing" what we percieve to be reality with our already decidely imperfect measuring devices)

I guess we'll have to wait on the original poster to get back to us on whether he means will these products effect the light being reflected into our eyes or whether he means the paint itself...

In the mean time, if a bear takes a crap in the woods and nobody is there to see it...

 

[budman3]

What I was trying to get to (and most were able to comprehend) is, can two different polishes and LSP give off different looks? Menzerna users say that those polishes look better than other polishes. I have used many different polishes and finished them off to near perfection under halogens and haven't noted any differences in the overall appearance of the vehicle. As long as the polishes finish off the same, how can the finish look different?

Many state that all of looks (greater than the normal condition of the paint) comes from polishing and not from LSP. My experiences are the opposite-- that the LSPs are what create the differences...

This is a simple question which has been talked about here and there but not in one thread. One person says LSPs make no differences and in another thread someone says Menzerna is the best looking polish and in another thread someone says waxes create different looks. Obviously there is a lot of confusion / overlap so clearing this up would be beneficial.

Also, I didn't state this above but is it a little bit of both- polishes and waxes?

 

[ASPHALT ROCKET]

I believe technique with each polish is going to also effect the outcome of each polish. I have too used alot of different polishes and Menzerna so far has given the best results, once again it does come down to how the product is used-correctly. It also is my opinion that if LSP changes the end result as much I think you are saying then it seems to come down to how well the polish part was done correctly. I also use ultrafina and it sometimes does a better job than any Menzerna finish polish. Once again this comes down to using the right pad, heat for the polish, technique and years of practice. In the end if each polish is giving you the same results I would have to say it is the user not getting the full performance out of certain polishes and might wanting to try out a different techinique to get the full potential out of certain polishes.

 

[ZoranC]

if a bear takes a crap in the woods and nobody is there to see it...

It is still a crap, it still stinks and attracts the flies.

 

[ZoranC]

My experiences are the opposite-- that the LSPs are what create the differences...

My experience is also that more observer had to drink the better finish looked. So should we also say alcohol is what creates the difference? Or we should first define what "looks" are, are we using objective or subjective perspective of looks?

 

[ZoranC]

In the end if each polish is giving you the same results I would have to say it is the user not getting the full performance out of certain polishes and might wanting to try out a different techinique to get the full potential out of certain polishes.

That can be the case. It can also be the case that both are giving the same result because both have equal potential.

However, if they are not giving equal result then at least one of them has not been worked to full potential or does not have same potential.

 

[ASPHALT ROCKET]

We both know alot of polishes are not the same quality as just a few.

 

[budman3]

My experience is also that more observer had to drink the better finish looked. So should we also say alcohol is what creates the difference? Or we should first define what "looks" are, are we using objective or subjective perspective of looks?

Define it whatever way you want since anything I say won't be enough for you. But if you need help- does Zaino look the same as Natty's Blue? Does Souveran look like SSII? Do the Menzerna polishes look the same as XMT polishes- used per MFG specs, as stated in the first post, with all swirling and marring removed? Or do they both add to the overall look of the vehicle?

Also, I'm not too worried about the quality / cutting abilities because any polish combination can get a swirl and marr free finish under halogens. What does the jeweling / burnishing of Menz and Ultrafina do to a surface that looks perfect under halogens?

 

[ASPHALT ROCKET]

Budman3, so are you now asking if both processes make the final results better and if so which one more?