Who's a plumber? Questions I have???

[cardaddy]

What's up guys!

Hey, I'm in the final stage of a basement project and need a bit of help. One of our 50 gallon water heaters went south and I have some plumbing questions.

Now because of that however.... the all seeing, all knowing one (aka the wife) has decided that NOW is (FINALLY) the perfect time to put down the new Italian tile we've been sitting on since back when it was cold weather. :laughing: (I'd been refusing to do it BECAUSE the water heater is in a closet of it's own and I didn't want to tile outside without going inside.)

Long story short I'm finishing up on the hallway and two closets and grouting the tile today. Still have a dressing room and bathroom, but at least I can put the water heater in by the weekend.

Back to the plumbing; It's a gravity feed hot water recirculation system. All copper ¾" pipe. I'm comfortable 'sweating' joints so that's not a problem. I have all the tools, mapp gas, solder, pipe cutters etc. as well. So that isn't any additional investment I need to make.

My question is; what is up with the "push fit" and/or "GatorBITE" fittings?

Thing is, I've never worked with them before and while they may be quicker, I am more about what is going to last the life of the home. ESPECIALLY on the hot water side of the system. Also, in the end (while they are a bit pricey) they may, or may not actually cost more... or even SAVE any money. :dunno:

 

[ken tuep]

They are very expensive compared to regular copper fittings, but the amount of time saved is huge!

I flip houses and have been using them as of lately, because they are simpler. I came across them when I was watching Holmes on homes, and he said they are designed to last as long as a sweated fitting.

I used them under a vanity sink, that was leaking at the sweat joint, which was right on the wall. So fire wasn't really an option. It held fine the 2 months we were still in the house before it sold.

They come with a 20? Year warranty, and are too easy. No cleaning needed, just make sure there aren't any burs. The only thing I've come across is some can be a pain to fully seat.

IMO, if it's in an open area where you can check them from time to time, do it.

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[FUNX650]

I would never have one in my house...especially not on any hot water heater/lines.

I like my pipe (fittings) to be hard (Copper).



Bob

 

[ct18]

Most plumbers I know do not like them, they would prefer you call a licensed plumber. For a homeowner they are handy. I am not sure of there longevity

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[Audios S6]

Most plumbers I know do not like them.
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So they MUST be good then.....

I wouldn't touch them. Also consider that if one of the joints is leaking...how do you repair it? I imagine the solution is cut out a section and use two more fittings, now you have twice the leak potential OR you just replace with sweated joints.

Although I deal with much larger diameter pipe than 3/4", I believe a welded (monolithic) pipe beats a mechanically jointed pipe, any size, everytime.

 

[Flash Gordon]

I had a leak in my attic several years back and made the repair using Gator Bites without a hitch

 

[ken tuep]

I wouldn't do a whole house with them, but certain situations they may be the simplest way.

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[cardaddy]

Thanks guys, seriously.... :thankyousign:
The input/info on them is about what I was thinking.

I certainly see where they would be a time saver, FOR SURE! I know ¾" copper isn't exactly cheap these days but yeah, they'd end up costing a bit more.

I've been looking at the system as it's designed and have another concern.

The gravity feed recirculation system is something that we haven't had before. The house was built in 2000, we bought it in 2004. The couple we bought it from had built it right for sure. They even used douglas fir for a lot of the framing rather than southern yellow pine (because it's a bit more dimensionally stable). Everything is fairly 'overbuilt', like for instance a 200 amp and a 150 amp service entrance complete with outside cutoffs. (Makes it easy to add circuits as I need them, like when I needed a 60 amp 220v for the hot tub.)

What I have a question about though is the lack of an expansion tank. I figure they were thinking with the 'recirc' system there is a bit of room in the lines for the extra water volume to rise (then fall of course). :dunno: But I also know that with a 50 gallon tank it'll expand the water volume over 2 gallons once heated and normally calls for a 5 gallon tank.

That being said; I'm putting an expansion tank in this time around. My question is, I know without the 'recirc' system that I'd need a 5 gallon tank, just wondering if I should do the 2 gallon tank given the whole idea of pressure/hot/rising/falling blah blah blah with the system as it is? (Price really isn't a concern as the difference isn't but something like $7 bucks.

I know this darned project it getting expensive. While they overbuilt most of the house I do wish though they'd bought better water heaters. Or at the least put magnesium anodes in the ones they installed! Cheap 6 year Rheem units are not my cup of tea. I'm replacing them with A.O. Smith (American Water Heater Co. built) 12 year units. Had to special order the freaking thing! TWICE!!!

 

[AC in OC]

You should be fine with the two gallon one. The 5 gallon will work too. Your choice. Are your HW/HWR lines insulated? If not, you should look into doing that. A lot of wasted energy when you have heat loss in your system.

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[jpegs13]

2 Gallon expansion tank is plenty. Given the fact that the system has been operating fine with no tank, a two gallon should do the trick

 

[cardaddy]

You should be fine with the two gallon one. The 5 gallon will work too. Your choice. Are your HW/HWR lines insulated? If not, you should look into doing that. A lot of wasted energy when you have heat loss in your system.

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Nope, the entire system isn't insulated. Which btw I know would make the recirc system much more efficient. From my understanding that system should be insulated going up to the farthest point at least, thus allowing convection to work much better (heat rise) then on the return route it isn't needed (at least on the last 25' minimum you wouldn't want it insulated) in order to get the water to lose temp and therefore fall back into the bottom of the tank. (It has a non-spring 1-way flapper valve off a T on the drain port.)

2 Gallon expansion tank is plenty. Given the fact that the system has been operating fine with no tank, a two gallon should do the trick

Yeah it's been working fine, fwiw. :dunno:I honestly don't know how/if it works being as you still have to 'call for' hot water no matter where you are in the house. (Two separate HW systems.) It doesn't take as long though here as it did on our old house which was half the size as this one. :dunno: Although the last couple of years there I had a 75 gallon MASSIVE Bradford White unit with a fantastic recovery rate. It would fill our 350 gallon hot tub with 100°+ water!

Whew, last night I had the wife help me with grouting down there. I'd worked on it for 3 hours earlier in the day and it's a PITA trying to get all the grout down, work the tiles without hitting the grout lines, then work the lines, then keep working the cleanup/haze all while not having the grout harden in the bucket. (Mixed a small batch just for that reason.)

Anyhow, she helped me do a 4LB then another 5LB batch that almost finished up the hallway, (should have done two 5LB batches and it'd finished it all). And of course by the end I'd slipped a disc and pinched a nerve AGAIN. Seems I throw it out 5~6 times a year these days. Left her to do another couple rounds of cleanup whilst I found a hand full of pain pills, a heating pad AND an ice pack. Still have about 15 Sq Ft to finish that I've not been able to even think about today.

At least I get to go to the Dr. tomorrow and get fitted for a new muscle stimulator and TENS unit, with built in electrodes inside a removable vest that I can use on all the problem areas that I can't reach (cervical & thoracic) as well as the lumbar. AND.... get a BIG HONKING nerve block. YES! rops:

 

[AC in OC]

Nope, the entire system isn't insulated. Which btw I know would make the recirc system much more efficient. From my understanding that system should be insulated going up to the farthest point at least, thus allowing convection to work much better (heat rise) then on the return route it isn't needed (at least on the last 25' minimum you wouldn't want it insulated) in order to get the water to lose temp and therefore fall back into the bottom of the tank. (It has a non-spring 1-way flapper valve off a T on the drain port.)



Yeah it's been working fine, fwiw. :dunno:I honestly don't know how/if it works being as you still have to 'call for' hot water no matter where you are in the house. (Two separate HW systems.) It doesn't take as long though here as it did on our old house which was half the size as this one. :dunno: Although the last couple of years there I had a 75 gallon MASSIVE Bradford White unit with a fantastic recovery rate. It would fill our 350 gallon hot tub with 100°+ water!

Whew, last night I had the wife help me with grouting down there. I'd worked on it for 3 hours earlier in the day and it's a PITA trying to get all the grout down, work the tiles without hitting the grout lines, then work the lines, then keep working the cleanup/haze all while not having the grout harden in the bucket. (Mixed a small batch just for that reason.)

Anyhow, she helped me do a 4LB then another 5LB batch that almost finished up the hallway, (should have done two 5LB batches and it'd finished it all). And of course by the end I'd slipped a disc and pinched a nerve AGAIN. Seems I throw it out 5~6 times a year these days. Left her to do another couple rounds of cleanup whilst I found a hand full of pain pills, a heating pad AND an ice pack. Still have about 15 Sq Ft to finish that I've not been able to even think about today.

At least I get to go to the Dr. tomorrow and get fitted for a new muscle stimulator and TENS unit, with built in electrodes inside a removable vest that I can use on all the problem areas that I can't reach (cervical & thoracic) as well as the lumbar. AND.... get a BIG HONKING nerve block. YES! rops:

Sorry to hear about your back. I too have a bad back. Separate issues in my lower back & upper back and neck. All that hard work is gonna prevent you from spending quality time detailing.

As far as your HW system goes, I am not familiar with a gravity return system. Sounds basic in that the last fixture served isn't just a dead leg, but that the piping continues downstairs to the basement where your water heater lives. I'm used to designing systems with a small 1/25th HP recirculation pump with a thermostat & programmable time clock to limit energy use and wear on the piping.

If you find that you are waiting for HW at a more remote fixture, you can look into installing an on demand controlled pump under the sink or lavatory. Depending on which unit you get, you can set the timer to your family's schedule, or just have it connect to a sensor (motion sensor, push button, etc) to start it up and get it running when you need HW.

Here's an illustration:

Here's a video:
Installing a Recirculation Pump for instant hot water and saving water - YouTube

 

[BillE]

I've only use the 'push on' fittings once, no problems. Different brand though, "Watts."

I believe Watts' fitting are even approved for "behind the wall" work.

Bill

 

[cardaddy]

Sorry to hear about your back. I too have a bad back. Separate issues in my lower back & upper back and neck. All that hard work is gonna prevent you from spending quality time detailing.

As far as your HW system goes, I am not familiar with a gravity return system. Sounds basic in that the last fixture served isn't just a dead leg, but that the piping continues downstairs to the basement where your water heater lives. I'm used to designing systems with a small 1/25th HP recirculation pump with a thermostat & programmable time clock to limit energy use and wear on the piping.

If you find that you are waiting for HW at a more remote fixture, you can look into installing an on demand controlled pump under the sink or lavatory. Depending on which unit you get, you can set the timer to your family's schedule, or just have it connect to a sensor (motion sensor, push button, etc) to start it up and get it running when you need HW.

Here's an illustration:

Here's a video:
Installing a Recirculation Pump for instant hot water and saving water - YouTube

Thanks dude. This is the type of system I've seen before as well. I was describing it last night to the wife actually. (Before I saw your diagram.)

Actually when we were looking at the house and they told me it had a recirc system I figured it had a pump somewhere.... then of course never found one.

"All that hard work is gonna prevent you from spending quality time detailing."

Don't you know it! :laughing:

Ended up today, after meeting with the rep, with a pretty neat 'garment" (as they call it) that'll allow me to place electrodes in 20 different places. Picture a really nice hot tub seat with jets all on the neck, shoulders, mid and lower back.

And maybeeeeeee by this weekend I can actually move around enough to spend a few quality hours washing and resealing my G. And if I'm lucky, finish polishing my Dad's Caddy and get some sealant on it as well. (Hasn't been driven 200 miles in the last year.) :dunno:

 

[cardaddy]

I've only use the 'push on' fittings once, no problems. Different brand though, "Watts."

I believe Watts' fitting are even approved for "behind the wall" work.

Bill

They seem like they are rated for that Bill, which is why I'm even considering it. Sure it'd be somewhat of a time savings but at the end of the day.... we're still dealing with copper pipe. :dunno:


Oh, and a crap load of new ball valves! One at the outlet on top, one at the top of the T going into the expansion tank, another at the inlet on top, and of course a new one at the drain on bottom. Yada yada yada........ :laughing:

 

[MitchLiving]

I'm going to bring this back from the dead for a reason..
Cardaddy I know you already finished your project ( i'm guessing) but i want to chime in from my person professional experience. From our already great conversations you know this was my profession for a LONG TIME!

IMO the Gatorbites/Sharkbites should NOT be used for a permeant fitting. When I had a truck I used them to fix something overnight and returned the next day to finish the work, such as replumbing a whole house and just to give someone water for the night and return next morning remove them and sweat the pipes back.

There are a couple of things they don't tell you about those fittings such as: nothing but metal piping i.e. galvanized or copper should be near the top of a water heater (gas). If you're going to use CPVC piping (which is rated for higher temps) or any kind've push fitting. By GA code it has to be 18" away from the top of a gas water heater, this also goes for PEX piping, the flexible Red, White and blue piping that use compressed fittings. I've seen these things fail and before and depending where your water heater is located it's already a mess by the time it's found.

Residential recirculating systems are awesome and I think it should be law to have one installed in every new home. Yeah, you burn a little more energy to have it pump the water around your house but a lot of them come with a timer dip switch on them so you can determine when it turns on and off. Works great to have it go on 10mins before you typically wake-up and shut off after you would've left the house already and of course this is for people with a morning routine. You save GALLONS of water from not running your hot water until it gets hot enough. For most this all depends where the water heater is located in the house, and more often than not the master bedroom is very far from where the water heater is.

Sorry to revive such an old tread but I felt obligated to do so as it may help other people in the future who may have the same questions.

Anyone can feel free to ask me anything plumbing related and I would do everything I can to help you fix your plumbing problems or answer any general plumbing questions.

 

[MitchLiving]

2 Gallon expansion tank is plenty. Given the fact that the system has been operating fine with no tank, a two gallon should do the trick

Anything 50 gallons or greater should get a 5 gallon expansion tank to be on the safe side. Yeah i know it's only 10 more gallons in the water heater but 10 more gallons of water being heated is a lot. I'm not going to say your system won't be fine with or without one but why chance it?

I've had customer pass on the expansion tank then call me complaining that their pipes are leaking or the T&P valve on the side of the water heater is leaking to the outside. If you're replacing a water heater and you don't have two unions to remove the water heater you have to cut the pipes anyway assuming they are copper, so go ahead and install a bigger one.

 

[cardaddy]

Thanks for the reply Mitch. And you are correct, we did finish the job. I ended up going with the smaller expansion tank mainly because it's a full gravity recirculation system (on the hot side) and there is quite a bit of expansion room in all the extra piping. The original setup didn't have one at all! I couldn't sleep nights knowing that, so I put one in.

Really brushed up on my sweat joint skills doing that one. (It'd been a while since I worked with copper. But I have all the tools.... so why not. )

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