Quite simply, as someone who manufactures some of the products available on the market, it is unreasonable for me to show bias to the extent of naming a product which I believe to be best. If you had a Warner Chemicals rep coming on here and talking technical with you, would you expect them to be just that candid? Even if they were, can you not appreciate that one of the many alternate branded product suppliers might not appreciate that they were named? Or they might not appreciate that their product was not named because it would send people scurrying to someone else. It is just a can of worms so I will continue sticking to technical matters which are factual rather than those which are prone to individual preference.
Why the hype about water beading?
- Thread starter wlshephard
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wlshephard
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hernandez.art13
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I like to get a small cup of water and just pour it on the paint and watch the water sheet off.
I mostly do this to show people what a waxed car looks like.
Idk it's just me.
I mostly do this to show people what a waxed car looks like.
Idk it's just me.
hernandez.art13
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anybody have anymore info on this? [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IS4FM-Hd62o]Deep Crystal Coating from Meguiar's Inc. ID10535 - YouTube[/video]
wlshephard
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Listen to the podcasts Jason talks about Mequiars working on a coating for the US market. There is one they have in Asia. Hope that helps.
Mike Phillips
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Hi wlshephard,
Wows!
I scanned the forum early this morning around 7:30am and at that time you had 2 posts and there were only 6 replies to this thread.
The fact that since this morning this thread is up to 45 replies is a testimony to how interesting this topic is as well as you're now up to 28 posts.
Welcome to AutogeekOnline!
:welcome:
wlshephard
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I don't know why people categorize beading and sheeting in two separate categories. In my experience, if something beads well, then it also sheets well. Look at products like cquartz and opti coat with their incredibly tight beads and awesome sheeting characteristics. Another one that comes to mind is sonax polymer netshield. All of these have some of the best beading/sheeting abilities I've ever seen.
To me, if it beads well, it sheets well. I know some people will disagree with me though.
As someone stated earlier, the more hydrophobic the surface is, the better it will sheet AND bead water.
To me, if it beads well, it sheets well. I know some people will disagree with me though.
As someone stated earlier, the more hydrophobic the surface is, the better it will sheet AND bead water.
Mike Phillips
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I'm typing a reply... my replies are more than one-liners, so they take a few minutes.
But after I reply I'm going to go wash my wife's MB and call it a day.
Just fished buffing out a different Mercedes-Benz and coating it with Black Label Diamond Paint Coating. Been here since 9:00am and love my work but going to push away from the keyboard and recharge my batteries.
The forum will be here when I return on Monday.
:xyxthumbs:
Im the MAN
Mike Phillips
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After reading through this entire thread here's the only comments I have to add...
First, the OP asked me for some input and here you go. As much as anyone and probably more than most I've weighed in on public forums since 2002 on the topic of water beading. If your read through enough of my posts on any forum you'll get my take on this subject.
Here's the nutshell version...
Water beading is BAD for paint. There are too many destructive/corrosive elements that get into the air and are mixed with rain or in the forum of airborne pollution that lands on your cars paint and then mixes with rain or is in your "water sources" whatever that might be when you wash your car that IF the standing water is not removed but instead left to dry on it's own it will leave one of three types of water spots.
So water beading isn't a good thing because it brings with it the POTENTIAL for Type II crater etchings that can only be removed by compounding or polishing the paint.
And of course the problem with this is paint is thin.... I wrote an article yesterday that addresses this issue here,
Clearcoats are Scratch-Sensitive
Now here's the dealio....
Perception is reality
Doesn't matter if you agree or like this fact it is what it is. Perception is reality.
PEOPLE like to see water beading and the masses believe it PROVES two things,
Waxes that sheet water get dissed on discussion forums and
And people won't buy it.
I worked for Meguiar's when the decision was made to reformulate NXT to bead water better and longer. It had a reputation of not lasting for very long because it didn't bead water for very long.
Heck I was there when the chemists held a demonstration to show how well a beta version worked compared to Zaino Z2 and after the demo it was time to go back to the drawing board.
Seriously... I've been in this world all my life. I know the entire topic inside and out and upside and upright and the masses want products that bead water and any product that doesn't bead water very well and for a long time gets beat up really bad.
The Zaino Case Study I wrote in 2003 address this issue in detail.
I think "protection products" for paint that sheet water are safer for preciously thin clear coats...
The factory sprayed clear layer of paint on most new cars averages around 2 mils. That's thinner than the average post-it note.
Water sheeting is a great idea... Meguiar's tried to educate the masses for years that water sheeting was better than water beading and they finally gave up and gave in. What's that say? If they can't change perception no one can.
People like to see water bead up in small, tall tight little beads on the hood of their car. I think it looks cool to even though my brain tells me that this could lead to water spots.
Perception is reality though and the masses want product that bead water and anyone that brings out a product that sheets water instead of beads water is going to have a tough time convincing a sometimes very rough crowd here in the forum world to buy their product.
Hey... if it doesn't bead water very well and for a long time, (that's two things by the way), then people will say it's not protecting well or protecting for a long time and people want to "think" the product they buy and apply protect well and last a long time and the masses judge this by water beading.
Don't know if that helps but there you go...
First, the OP asked me for some input and here you go. As much as anyone and probably more than most I've weighed in on public forums since 2002 on the topic of water beading. If your read through enough of my posts on any forum you'll get my take on this subject.
Here's the nutshell version...
Water beading is BAD for paint. There are too many destructive/corrosive elements that get into the air and are mixed with rain or in the forum of airborne pollution that lands on your cars paint and then mixes with rain or is in your "water sources" whatever that might be when you wash your car that IF the standing water is not removed but instead left to dry on it's own it will leave one of three types of water spots.
- Type I
- Type II <-- The worst kind to get in your car's paint
- Type III
So water beading isn't a good thing because it brings with it the POTENTIAL for Type II crater etchings that can only be removed by compounding or polishing the paint.
And of course the problem with this is paint is thin.... I wrote an article yesterday that addresses this issue here,
Clearcoats are Scratch-Sensitive
Now here's the dealio....
Perception is reality
Doesn't matter if you agree or like this fact it is what it is. Perception is reality.
PEOPLE like to see water beading and the masses believe it PROVES two things,
- Protection
- Longevity
Waxes that sheet water get dissed on discussion forums and
- Not protecting
- Not lasting
And people won't buy it.
I worked for Meguiar's when the decision was made to reformulate NXT to bead water better and longer. It had a reputation of not lasting for very long because it didn't bead water for very long.
Heck I was there when the chemists held a demonstration to show how well a beta version worked compared to Zaino Z2 and after the demo it was time to go back to the drawing board.
Seriously... I've been in this world all my life. I know the entire topic inside and out and upside and upright and the masses want products that bead water and any product that doesn't bead water very well and for a long time gets beat up really bad.
The Zaino Case Study I wrote in 2003 address this issue in detail.
I think "protection products" for paint that sheet water are safer for preciously thin clear coats...
The factory sprayed clear layer of paint on most new cars averages around 2 mils. That's thinner than the average post-it note.
Water sheeting is a great idea... Meguiar's tried to educate the masses for years that water sheeting was better than water beading and they finally gave up and gave in. What's that say? If they can't change perception no one can.
People like to see water bead up in small, tall tight little beads on the hood of their car. I think it looks cool to even though my brain tells me that this could lead to water spots.
Perception is reality though and the masses want product that bead water and anyone that brings out a product that sheets water instead of beads water is going to have a tough time convincing a sometimes very rough crowd here in the forum world to buy their product.
Hey... if it doesn't bead water very well and for a long time, (that's two things by the way), then people will say it's not protecting well or protecting for a long time and people want to "think" the product they buy and apply protect well and last a long time and the masses judge this by water beading.
Don't know if that helps but there you go...
Mike Phillips
Active member
- Dec 5, 2022
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Just by coincidence I was talking to Larry about Jason just yesterday.
My comment was not only is Jason very smart as it relates to all things polishing, he also always conducts himself in a professional manner. Not something that can be said for everyone in the online detailing world.
The longer I'm in this business, I find I enjoy and respect people more for the way they conduct themselves than their ability to buff out a car.
Time to go do the thing I write about... work on my own car...
:buffing: :buffing: :buffing: :buffing:
My comment was not only is Jason very smart as it relates to all things polishing, he also always conducts himself in a professional manner. Not something that can be said for everyone in the online detailing world.
The longer I'm in this business, I find I enjoy and respect people more for the way they conduct themselves than their ability to buff out a car.
Time to go do the thing I write about... work on my own car...
:buffing: :buffing: :buffing: :buffing:
wlshephard
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Thanks a bunch. It is a slow snowy icy day here in Missouri and my tv signal is on the fritz so this forum has really passed the time. Thanks again for all your advice and videos it has really lit a fire in me to get more knowledge and build on what detailing skill I have.
scienceguy
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Great post Mike, lots of good information there :dblthumb2:
I agree, people definitely love their beading! The problem is people don't have many other options as read-outs to check if the product is still there/working, other than just re-applying based on vendor recommendations. On the other hand, just because the component in the product causing the beading still persists, does that necessarily mean the full "protection" offered by the product still remains?
I agree, people definitely love their beading! The problem is people don't have many other options as read-outs to check if the product is still there/working, other than just re-applying based on vendor recommendations. On the other hand, just because the component in the product causing the beading still persists, does that necessarily mean the full "protection" offered by the product still remains?
I agree with Mike's comments on this.Perception is reality though and the masses want product that bead water and anyone that brings out a product that sheets water instead of beads water is going to have a tough time convincing a sometimes very rough crowd here in the forum world to buy their product.
Hey... if it doesn't bead water very well and for a long time, (that's two things by the way), then people will say it's not protecting well or protecting for a long time and people want to "think" the product they buy and apply protect well and last a long time and the masses judge this by water beading.
However, technology is changing our lives so very fast. It won't be long before a product like Never Wet, or something similar, becomes a reality for car enthusiasts...if it isn't here already.
carenthusiast
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- Nov 17, 2013
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And the question is: what product will repel water and not let it bead?
Is there a durable wax or sealant that will NOT bead the water?
I really don't care what most others like or assume, what I want is the real protection for my car.
Is there a durable wax or sealant that will NOT bead the water?
I really don't care what most others like or assume, what I want is the real protection for my car.
FUNX650
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- Dec 1, 2010
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My opinions/comments (post# 17) were pointing to beading facts based on the chemistry of water itself.
Other posts of mine in this thread were pointing to beading hype based upon:
myths, magic, mind-manipulations, and the proliferation thereof.
BTW:
I've been proselytizing about all of the negatives about having water beads laying upon/permeating CC- paint for years now.
I could have included this information earlier, but felt it may have been misunderstood.
Bob
I agree, but based on my observations (never seen the sonax product in action), but the problem is still situation based. When you spray water sideways from a hose onto a waxed-and-beading car, the sheeting action works quite well. But rain doesn't fall sideways nor in the volume of a hose... It always stops raining slowly and leaves beads left behind, and then you worry about the water spots and etching.
I agree, but as others are alluding to, it's a self-perpetuating situation. The marketplace demands beading so no one manufactures non-beading products so you can't educate people on how to tell if the product is still protecting the paint.
Mike - I do believe that if the most respected people of the forums-like yourself-were to carry the flame, we could reshape perception, but education on how to tell if the product is still protecting would be required. Then again, swimming against the stream of ignorance might drive you insane
. I remember previous posts from you (probably from a couple years ago) saying that some longer lasting protectants don't bead paint well and components were added to make beading happen so you've educated at least one ignorant person on the subject of beading as well as the subject of public perception.Maybe they could instead infuse the product with a fluorescent so you can use an inexpensive blacklight to tell if it's still there... that might give the ignorant people enough visual proof to remove their doubts.
Hazcat
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I enjoy my truck washing itself when it rains and the paint has protection on it. That's all I care about. I don't worry about beading or sheeting. If it cleans easily I know it's protected and I'm happy. You can feel when you look at it, wash it, dry it, wiping off a bug or bird dropping, or just by touching the door handle if it needs something put on it. Each time I dry my truck I use a wet, gray cobra 530 with UWWP misted on it before wiping with a guzzler so I know it's getting a wax boost. It's slick as they come.
I'm glad I read this thread. As a newbie to detailing, I was wondering about beading too, for to me, it was somewhat counterproductive in creating water spots. I think I understand the subject a bit better now. I guess my initial thoughts weren't too far off the mark afterall.