Why won't the scratches come out?

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Koast

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I detailed a 06 Toyota Solara today, we made a complete pass with 5.5 LC pads on the PC. We used a heavy cut compound and returned and re-did a few areas. But the scratches didn't come out. They were dulled, and the shine of the paint made them less visible but they were far from gone after 2 passes.

None of these scratches were into the paint enough that I could catch a fingernail on them. Should I just make another pass? Is it the PC? Should I just use a rotary and expect the PC to only dull very minor scratches? Was i not working the compound into the paint enough?

Any help would be nice.

Don't get me wrong the car came out looking excellent, but I'm a perfectionist and would like to be 101% every time.

Thanks in advance!
 
You probably didn't work the compound in long enough. What compound and pad combo were you using? What speed?
 
Meguiars Heavy Cut, LC 5.5 Yellow Pad, Between 4-5 speed (worked in on 1-2).
 
There's your problem. The PC isn't powerful enough to do any correcting unless it's all the way at 6. Spread and correct at speed 6. Use an orange pad as well. The yellow isn't necessary unless you have serious oxidation. Take your time because the PC doesn't create enough heat to break down the polishes very quickly. I spent probably around 7-8 minutes working in Menzerna SIP to make sure it broke down fully.
 
joshs07redss said:
There's your problem. The PC isn't powerful enough to do any correcting unless it's all the way at 6. Spread and correct at speed 6. Use an orange pad as well. The yellow isn't necessary unless you have serious oxidation. Take your time because the PC doesn't create enough heat to break down the polishes very quickly. I spent probably around 7-8 minutes working in Menzerna SIP to make sure it broke down fully.
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Good advice Josh. If the op is using PG then he will need to finish down with a polish. Meg's 105/205 seems to be a great combo using a pc.
 
Rsurfer said:
Good advice Josh. If the op is using PG then he will need to finish down with a polish. Meg's 105/205 seems to be a great combo using a pc.
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You know, I've never used 105/205... but I have heard such great things on it. Now that I have a rotary, I definitely need to add 105 to the arsenal. But yes, the OP definitely needs to finish down. If he's doing any kind of compounding, he will need to finish down.
 
What size pad are you using?

When I started it was with a PC and I was frustrated until I realized that anything bigger than a 5.5" pad was just silly, 4" for real stubborn areas.

That and properly breaking down the liquid is they key...

Be careful because there is damage that can be done when using a 4" pad on a PC due to the increased heat.
 
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MotorCity Honda said:
What size pad are you using?

When I started it was with a PC and I was frustrated until I realized that anything bigger than a 5.5" pad was just silly, 4" for real stubborn areas.

Be careful because there is damage that can be done when using a 4" pad on a PC due to the increased heat.
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This may have nothing to do with correction, but when I went to a 4" pad and bp, my bp broke. It just split in two. So I went to a rotary lc bp with an extension. The pc is soooo much smoother with 50% reduction in vibration. That loose bolt rattle is also gone. Seems that a smaller and heavier bp keeps the pc in balance. It's really a joy to use the pc now.
 
Rsurfer said:
This may have nothing to do with correction, but when I went to a 4" pad and bp, my bp broke. It just split in two. So I went to a rotary lc bp with an extension. The pc is soooo much smoother with 50% reduction in vibration. That loose bolt rattle is also gone. Seems that a smaller and heavier bp keeps the pc in balance. It's really a joy to use the pc now.
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You should try the Flex DA.:p

I logged tons of hours with my PC and a 4" pad with no ill effects...

That's cool that you made an extension. I had to do that for a really small BP that I wanted for my makita but it was only in the UK and therefore would not fit my US machine.
 
Well I believe the OP said he was using 5.5" pads because I thought the same thing as you. I tried using some 6.5" pads one time and it just spread the polish around. You are 100% correct that anything over 5.5" is not good. You've definitely got to get the PC up to speed 6 to do any kind of correcting with it thought. I love rotaries :D.
 
Koast said:
Meguiar's Heavy Cut, LC 5.5 Yellow Pad, Between 4-5 speed (worked in on 1-2).
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You mean M0416 Heavy Cut Cleaner?


This is a product only intended for use with a rotary buffer. It's actually a product that's been around since probably the 1920's or 1930's. It uses a rather large, chunky diminishing abrasive and was originally intended to be used on single stage paints. The formula was updated sometime in the 1990's so but it's still only recommended for use with rotary buffers.

We need to get you a more modern product designed for use with a dual action polisher. Ultimate Compound is a very effective swirl mark remover and can be used by hand or with a DA Polisher and comes in a 16 ounce bottle so you might consider giving this a try.


Here's a list of the most common problems
  1. Trying to work too large of an area at one time.
  2. Move the polisher too fast over the surface.
  3. Too low of speed setting for removing swirls.
  4. Too little pressure on the head of the unit.
  5. Too much pressure on the head of the unit so the pad quits rotating.
  6. Not keeping the pad flat while working your product.
  7. Too much product, too little product.
  8. Not cleaning the pad often enough.
Here's a list of the solutions in matching order,
  1. Shrink your work area down, the harder the paint the smaller the area you can work. The average area should be and average of about 16" by 16" up to 20" by 20" or so. You have to do some experimenting, (called a Test Spot), to find out how easy or how hard the defects are coming out of your car's paint system and then adjust your work area to the results of your Test Spot.
  2. For removing defects out of the paint you want to use what we call a Slow Arm Speed. It's really easy to move the polisher too quickly because the sound of the motor spinning fast has a psychological effect to for some reason want to make people move the polisher fast. Also the way most people think is that, "If I move the polisher quickly, I'll get done faster", but it doesn't work that way.
  3. When first starting out many people are scared of burning or swirling their paint, so they take the safe route of running the polisher at too low of a speed setting, again... this won't work. The action of the polisher is already g-e-n-t-l-e, you need the speed and specifically the pad rotating over the paint as well as the combination of time, (slow arm speed), together with the diminishing abrasives, the foam type, and the pressure to remove small particles of paint which is how your remove below surface defects like swirls or scratches. It's a leveling process that's somewhat difficult because the tool is safe/gentle while in most cases, modern clear coat paints are harder than traditional single stage paints and this makes them hard to work on. This is also why people get frustrated, they don't understand paint technology, all they know is their paint swirls easy and getting the swirls out is difficult and thus frustrating.
  4. For the same reason as stated in #3, people are scared, or perhaps a better word is apprehensive, to apply too much pressure and the result of too little pressure is no paint is removed thus no swirls are removed.
  5. Just the opposite of item #4, people think that by pushing harder on the polisher they can work faster and be more aggressive, but the truth is the clutch in the tool is a safety mechanism to prevent burning and will cause the pad to stop rotating, thus less cleaning or abrading action and once in a while this will lead a person to then post on the forum something like this, "Hey my pad doesn't rotate". There needs to be a balance of enough pressure to remove defects and keep the pad rotating but yet not too much pressure as to stop the rotating action. This balance is affected by a lot of things, things like type of chemical, some chemicals provide more lubrication and the pad will spin easier, curved surfaces or any raise in body lines will tend to stop the pad from rotating. This is where experience on how to address these areas comes into play or you do the best you can and move on. It's not a perfect tool, nor a perfect system, but it's almost always better than working/cleaning by hand.
  6. Applying pressure in such a way as to put too much pressure to one side of the pad will cause it to stop rotating and thus decrease cleaning ability.
  7. Too much product over lubricates the surface and this won't allow the diminishing abrasives to do their job plus it will increase the potential for messy splatter as well as cause pad saturation. Too little product will keep the pad from rotating due to no lubrication and there won't be enough diminishing abrasives to do any work. Again it's a balance that comes with experience, or another way of saying this would be it's a balance that comes with hours of buffing out a car to learn what to do and what not to do. Information like what you're reading here is just an edge to decrease your learning curve. Hope this is helping.
  8. Most people don't clean their pad often enough and most of the time the reason for this is because they don't know they're supposed to clean their pad often and they don't know how to clean their pad. Again, that's why this forum is here to help you with both of these things. You should clean your pad after every application of product or every other application of product, your choice, most of the time cleaning your pad after every other application of product works pretty well. It enables you to work clean and enables the foam pad, the polisher and the next application of fresh product too all work effectively.


The first 4 are the most common.

Another thing you might consider is testing a more aggressive pad like a cutting pad but be sure to do a Test Spot first and then inspect your results to make sure the more aggressive foam formula is leaving behind a nice looking finish, if it's not you might have to do a second polishing step to remove any hazing caused by the first step and restore and maximize gloss and clarity.


:)
 
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yea! what he said! ha.

what a great response. its really nice to have you active in the forums to get such in depth responses that really make sense to detailers of all levels.
 
One thing to make sure the pad is spinning (I did this with the PC because it doesn't have forced rotation) is to draw a line perpendicular to the edge of the pad. This will give you a visual so that you can see the pad spinning.
 
Thanks very much for all the well thought out responses and I can already see where we were going wrong with some of our techniques.

Your help and the help of the other people on this forum has been excellent thus far. Keep the good advice coming. Hopefully one day we will be well versed enough to add quality advice back to the community.

Thanks Again!
 
joshs07redss said:
One thing to make sure the pad is spinning (I did this with the PC because it doesn't have forced rotation) is to draw a line perpendicular to the edge of the pad. This will give you a visual so that you can see the pad spinning.
Click to expand...

Like this,

MarkYourPadsBackingPlates01.jpg


MarkYourPadsBackingPlates05.jpg



Drawing a line somehow on either your backing plate or your foam pads or both helps your eyes to easily see if the pad is spinning or not and if it's not then you'll want to tweak your technique until it is. Holding a pad on edge by not holding the polisher in a way that keeps the pad flat is all it takes to slow down or stop the pad from rotating at a fast clip so make sure you always hold the pad flat to the surface as best as you can.


:xyxthumbs:
 
Mike.Phillips@Autogeek said:
Like this,

MarkYourPadsBackingPlates01.jpg


MarkYourPadsBackingPlates05.jpg



Drawing a line somehow on either your backing plate or your foam pads or both helps your eyes to easily see if the pad is spinning or not and if it's not then you'll want to tweak your technique until it is. Holding a pad on edge by not holding the polisher in a way that keeps the pad flat is all it takes to slow down or stop the pad from rotating at a fast clip so make sure you always hold the pad flat to the surface as best as you can.


:xyxthumbs:
Click to expand...

Kind of like that. I just used one line on my BP though.
 
The PC takes a very long time to repair paint problems like scratches. If you can run a rotary why not just use that? I too take about 7-8 mins with my PC using MEGS 150 and 205 combo with green and white pads. My Flex rotary will easily cut that time in half.
 
SpotlessDetail said:
The PC takes a very long time to repair paint problems like scratches. If you can run a rotary why not just use that? I too take about 7-8 mins with my PC using MEGS 150 and 205 combo with green and white pads. My Flex rotary will easily cut that time in half.
Click to expand...
Some people don't have a rotary or don't know how to use one safely. Like painting the exterior of a house. You could do it in half the time with a spray gun, but some choose to use a brush and roller.
 
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