This thread was started about the time I was leaving work and I was interested to see where it went and it looks like it went just fine.
A couple of comments though...
So my question is, when do you guys use a da? Is there a purpose for it that I don't know about? Microfiber pads are a help but still the other technologies are far superior.
I love DA's and like you I started using a rotary buffer when I was at least 17 and I keep my first variable speed rotary buffer with me at all times because it fed me and paid my bills for a big chunk of my life. You can see it in some of the pictures in this thread on the back of the work bench, it's the blue Makita with the handle pointing towards the sky...
How to use a Rotary Buffer
Side of buffer worn smooth after years of buffing out paint
Lego man on my keychain reflecting off worn area on buffer
Here's what the head looked of the buffer looked like before. It has a rough texture because the aluminum was cast in a
sand mold
But to your questions...
So my question is, when do you guys use a da? Is there a purpose for it that I don't know about? Microfiber pads are a help but still the other technologies are far superior.
I use it when it's the right tool for the job and to introduce people that
have always worked by hand to the
wonderful world of machine polishing.
While you and others might not have had any hesitation about picking of a rotary buffer and buffing out a car, I'm here to tell you first hand after decades of teaching absolute newbies, some older than me some younger than me how to machine polish paint.
You can find pictures all over this forum and MOL with my hand on someone else's hand guiding them through their first machine polishing experience.
My how-to book is specifically focused on the Porter Cable "style" DA Polisher
because from my experience in the detailing world, the normal progression for "most" people is to,
- Start out working by hand. Most people already own a hand or two so that's what they use.
- Progress to a PC "style" DA Polisher - Very affordable, pretty much "Bubba-Proof" unless you drop the thing on the hood of your car.
Then if a person is really into detailing as a hobby or a business (at some capacity), then they make the jump or
progress to either a Flex 3401 or a Rotary Buffer. And this is a perfectly good way to go.
Besides the above, the PC style DA Polishers are very good at,
Buffing on paint and NOT leaving holograms
Removing holograms left by a rotary buffer
I don't even want to argue with anyone that's going to state how they are so great with a rotary buffer that the can leave a hologram free finish on EVERY car, or more specifically, EVER PAINT SYSTEM they work on because I don't believe it and I NEVER find anyone proving it.
In fact, to date no one has ever challenged anything I wrote in this article,
Hologram Free with a Rotary Buffer
No one.
Besides being an excellent tool for people to transition from working by hand to working by machine, and being an excellent tool for removing normal swirls and scratches and holograms inflicted into paint by the misuse of a rotary buffer, it's also a GREAT way to machine apply a wax.
I try do do as much of every project by machine and get my hand out of the picture and that includes machine applying a wax or paint sealant. The new coatings like EXO, Opti-Coat II and CQuartz require hand application and I'm okay with that but outside a hi-tech coating I'm machine applying everything.
With the right pads, polishes, and technique, DA's can equal or better the finish of a rotary on most paints in about the same amount of time....and they are 100% hologram free.
Exactly.
The way I type about it and explain it in my classes is by using a DA Polisher, (after a rotary buffer), you
Change the action of the tool
That means you go from a direct drive rotating action to a rotating and oscillating action and this type of action doesn't inflict holograms but in fact removes them.
Of course there is the problem of the potential for DA Haze, also called micro-marring or "Tick Marks" by Meguiar's Chemists, but this is not a negative, it's a factor to be inspected for on softer paint systems or when caused by the abrasive technology being used for the major correction step and then overcome by the next step and an experienced detailer or the help of a forum like this. I can insert links to examples of this all day...
The 3401 is an acquired taste. You may not like it at first but stick with it and you will learn to love it!
I would agree with this only because of the unique "walking" characteristic the tool has and that's because it oscillates under forced rotation. It basically teaches you to hold the pad flat and that's what you're supposed to be doing anyways. I also teach this in all my classes, that is how to properly use the Flex 3401 by holding the pad flat.
How To Polish a Street Rod! - Modeled by Stacy!
And it's definitely easier to use and control by upgrading to the 4" backing plate and then using the 5" Hybrid pads.
New 5" pads for 4" Backing Plate on Flex 3401
Live Broadcast Video - 1965 Plymouth Valiant - Extreme Makeover
I guess I need to go to Mike Phillips classes because I have not had the same experience.
Next class is
January 26th and 27th and you will not only have a chance to use all the tools you read about here but you'll also get the chance to work on some really cool cars with them.
The rotary is ALWAYS MUCH FASTER and in my experience the maximum correction and gloss. I have not been able to do my car in less than 8 hours with the da versus 5-6 with a rotary.
I would agree and this is especially true after sanding down an entire car and it's time to remove your sanding marks.
You can remove sanding marks using any tool now that 3M, Meguiar's and Mirka all have #3000, #4000 and #5000 grit finishing discs on the market but here's what I always say about this topic,
It already takes a long time to buff out an entire car with a rotary buffer, (remove sanding marks out of an entire car), why would I want to do it any slower?
Again, can it be done with a PC and a microfiber disc? You bet! But it's going to be faster and more effective to simply take a wool pad on a rotary buffer and get it over with and then start the polishing process to create a show car finish.
Below is a K5 Blazer I led a team of guys to sand and buff out...
How to use Meguiar's Unigrit Sanding Blocks to remove runs and dirt nibs in paint
DA is just for final polishing or waxing, just something light duty.
Depending upon your experience level. If you're new to machine polishing and a little "worried" about causing harm to your baby you'll trade speed for safety. Keep in mind, there are a lot of people that are more than willing to learn how to machine polish their own cars to avoid the risk involved with taking their car to a so called professional detailer, just a do a search on this forum or MOL using the term,
Horror Story
As that's the term I coined, use and add to all my threads involving some pour soul that has had his cars completely swirled out by some hack detailer misusing a rotary buffer.
Some people are willing to learn how to use a DA Polisher and take care of their own cars to avoid the risk of a horror story happening to them but at the same time they don't want detailing to be their
new hobby.
With the right pads, polishes, and technique, DA's can equal or better the finish of a rotary on most paints in about the same amount of time....and they are 100% hologram free.
That's true. Rotaries do bring the speed factor to the table but with speed comes risk of accidentally burning through the paint on a high point or any place the paint is thin. Plus the hologram issue.
I have the Dewalt 849X too. I use it to jewel. I use the 3401 with MF pads, LC or Optimum. I know this is ass-backwards but I agree with Chad, a DA or the 3401 will correct hologram free in short order.
Here's an example people BRAND NEW to machine polishing using ONLY a Flex 3401. They performed two steps to correct the paint and restore a true show car finish and left zero holograms or swirls in the paint.
Pictures & Comments from September 2012 Detailing Boot Camp
BEFORE
Buffing without at the same time instilling holograms...
AFTER
Amazing results all things considered...
A rotary does cut faster, but it usually leaves behind a less than perfect finish.
The only time I really use it for cutting is when I'm wet sanding or working on extremely hard paint.
I agree and always love reading your write-ups showcasing your work.
CCS pads will actually have a better user experience, but flat pads produce better results.
I too am a flat pad fan. All foam pads work but I can make a case for a flat pad.
Walter Cotton's work back in 1965 still endures today...
Only limitation for a DA i see is removal of sanding marks in corners and edges, where a rotary will be far more superior for this purpose.
And when buffing corners and edges with a rotary buffer, wool pad and compound you still have to work very carefully...
How to buff off an edge
But if you have the skill to finish properly with a rotary, then your blessed, you may have little use for your DA.
What I teach and practice (most of the time), is by finishing out using a DA Polisher you
"ensure" a swirl free or hologram-free finish.
I do believe some "paint systems" can be buffed hologram free using only a rotary buffer but not all paint systems. The only way to know for sure though is to chemically strip the paint and then inspect it in bright overhead sunlight and the paint has to be a dark color or it can be difficult to really see what's going on at the surface level. What I find in the forum world is a lot of people stating they finish hologram-free but I never see the proof or a well written explanation describing how they chemically stripped the paint and then inspected. People just claim it.
I used my GG on basically half of my Firebird and cant notice a lick of difference from my rotary. Here is what I used on either machine
Rotary - Wool pad + Meguiars Deep Crystal Step 1, Black Foam pad and Meguiars Deep Crystal Step 2
Neither of those chemicals are recommended for use with a rotary buffer. The Step 1 is barely abrasive, it's purposefully a very safe product for the average "Joe Consumer", it's also no longer made. The Step 2 is non-abrasive, kind of a cousin to #7 in that it's a pure polish.
GG DA - Yellow LC CCS Pad and Meguiars 105, Green LC CCS pad and 205.
Try those products with the rotary and you'll see some action.
I always FEEL like the rotary can do a better job but after using the DA and having the insurance that things cant go horribly wrong if I sneeze or trip on the chord it makes the DA look that much better.
Well said.
Big pictures is this, people are different and just like some people like Coke and some people like Pepsi, people are going to gravitate towards tools, pads and products that "they" feel comfortable with. There is no such thing as a one size fits all approach to machine polishing paint.
What's more important is to find what works best for you but always be open to new ideas, products and process.
Nice thread...
