"Working In" a Sealant?

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CharlesW

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In a recent discussion about using a polisher to apply products, a question came up about whether to apply pressure or just let the weight of the polisher supply the pressure.
And yes, I know at least some pressure would need to be applied on vertical surfaces.

Anyway, a statement was made about applying pressure to "work the sealant in".
This was the first time I heard of needing to "work a sealant in".
Is there a benefit to doing this?
I can't think of any reason for it, but maybe I am missing something.
 
Some people do this...IIRC Totoland Mach does, but I could be way off. I never personally found a benefit in doing so; I use whatever pressure it takes to spread a thin, even layer across the paint...which usually isn't much.
 
CharlesW said:
A statement was made about "working the sealant in". I can't think of any reason for it, but maybe I am missing something.
Click to expand...

I'm with ya there, the only thing I can think of is trying to ensure even coverage. As I understand it sealants are generally made of synthetic cross-linking polymers that adhere to the surface. Therefore not needing any "working" like, say, a polish needs to be worked. WOWAWOWA Wipe on, wait awhile, wipe off, wait awhile.

Care to post a link to the specific thread in the OP?
 
What are you "working it" into? Not like it's going "into" the paint. Like all LSPs, the key is uniform spreading or application of the product over the surface. Pressure is dependant on product and/or applicator.
 
When you apply a wax or paint sealant you mostly just coat over the surface, but under a microscope the surface isn't 100% flat like you're eyes see, so the term working a wax or paint sealant into the paint just means to push the wax or paint sealant into the microscopic pits, pores, hills, valleys and interstices, which means microscopic cracks of fissures in the paint.

When paint is brand new, like a brand new car it is in it's most perfect solid condition possible or impermeable condition. With time, wear and tear the surface begins to open up with imperfections, it becomes more permeable.

It's not like older single stage paints that are a lot more porous but the idea is to seal the surfaces as best you can.

Personal preference, if you feel gliding a wax applicator pad over the surface once or twice is sufficient for your level of expectations for doing a good job of depositing the protection ingredients onto and into the surface then that's all you need to do.

As for me, I practice what I preach and I tell people when it comes to applying a wax or paint sealant to make 2-3 passes over each square inch to thoroughly work the wax or paint sealant over and into the paint TO WHATEVER LEVEL IS POSSIBLE.

You see with that kind of recommendation you will insure 100% of the surface is coated and protected to the best of a person's ability.

It's just a good "best practice"


When it comes to single stage paints then you can work a product into the paint as they are more porous than modern clear coats.

But everyone can find a method that works best for them...


:)
 
A4 1.8tqm said:
Care to post a link to the specific thread in the OP?
Click to expand...

Just look for any post I've ever made about applying a wax or paint sealant.

Over 28,000 post on MOL so there's probably plenty of threads to find over there.

In two recent video we just shot I also make the recommendation to work the wax or paint sealant over the surface and into the surface to whatever level is possible.

Here's a picture of paint with surface imperfections that if -->you<-- were waxing this paint you would be pushing wax into these pinholes at least at some level.

From this thread,

1957 Chevrolet Belair Extreme Makeover - Flex 3401 & Wolfgang Smackdown!

57TuqChev074.jpg




Now in the above picture you can see the surface is not 100% smooth, but does this mean just because your eyes can't see any imperfections in the surface that there aren't any?


:)
 
Mike.Phillips@Autogeek said:
Here's a picture of paint with surface imperfections that if -->you<-- were waxing this paint you would be pushing wax into these pinholes at least at some level.

From this thread,

1957 Chevrolet Belair Extreme Makeover - Flex 3401 & Wolfgang Smackdown!

57TuqChev074.jpg




Now in the above picture you can see the surface is not 100% smooth, but does this mean just because your eyes can't see any imperfections in the surface that there aren't any?


:)
Click to expand...
Would working a sealant into the paint surface shown actually "fill" any of those imperfections?
I was always under the impression that the sealant would just coat the imperfections and not really make any improvement.

I also always felt that a wax did seem to do some "filling" in those type of blemishes.
Those look pretty bad in the picture and I wouldn't expect any product to do a lot for them.

While I don't apply sealants/waxes by machine, it would not be any great effort to do so if it was going to have a benefit.
It would also not be any great effort to "work" the sealant/wax in when applying it by hand.
Maybe if it ever quits snowing and warms up a little, I'll give it a try.
 
Seeing that the most products are liquid polymers, don't they bond together over the surface rather than inside microscopic voids? Do you actually need to push product into these spaces to create a bond?
 
CharlesW said:
Would working a sealant into the paint surface shown actually "fill" any of those imperfections?
Click to expand...

No. The idea isn't to fill them in but to coat or seal them but to do this you would have to push the wax or sealant into them, not just merely glide your pad over the surface.

Again everyone can apply their choice of wax or paint sealant however they want but it doesn't hurt to thoroughly work the product over and into the surface to whatever level is possible.

Key words being, whatever level is possible.


:)
 
David Fermani said:
Seeing that the most products are liquid polymers, don't they bond together over the surface rather than inside microscopic voids? Do you actually need to push product into these spaces to create a bond?
Click to expand...

I'm not a chemist David?

You can apply wax however you wish... all I'm saying isn't doesn't hurt to do your best to thoroughly work your choice of a wax or paint sealant over and into the surface to whatever level is possible.

:laughing:
 
I actually have behind the scenes projects I have to get back to... before I get back to them, would everyone agree that Microfiber Polishing Cloths offer a lot of benefits?

Agree?

Would we all agree that one of the benefits is the unique ability to REMOVE substances off a smooth surface?

For example removing a coating of wax or paint sealant off the surface?


At least better than a large fiber material can, for example cotton terry cloth?


Can anyone agree with this? That microfiber, or Microscopic Fibers are very good at removing trace substances OFF THE SURFACE?


:)
 
Great response as always Mike. I like the logic of "Into the surface to whatever level is possible" and "...just because your eyes can't see any imperfections in the surface that there aren't any?" As you said 2-3 passes to work it in... I figured OP meant several passes w/ pressure, not typical of wax/sealant application IMO. Also just wondering about the specific discussion referred to, probably not too hard for me to find I guess.

My hood has the pinholes or "solvent popping" I think it's been called, very irritating. Anything to hide/fill/protect even just a little would make me happy. When I do my full detail for summer I'll do some testing. I don't have a true glaze, suggestions on product to fill the pinholes?

I agree, and the best part is mf does it gently.
 
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I sent Forrest @ Mother's a Pm to see if he can chime in on this subject.

I agree Mike, use whatever process you're happy doing with keeping in mind the best possible outcome in the most efficient way.
 
A4 1.8tqm said:
Great response as always Mike. I like the logic of "Into the surface to whatever level is possible" and "...just because your eyes can't see any imperfections in the surface that there aren't any?" As
Click to expand...

Ever since I started posting to the Internet, which I can track to 1994 and probably 1993, I've found that in the detailing world, there's a segment of people that like to dissect a topic to death and that's why words become very important. Suffice to say, if I post something I'm 99.9% confident I can defend it otherwise I would have never carefully thought out the words, typed them and then posted them for dissection.

Like Larry the Cable Guy says...

I can do this all day...

:laughing:
 
Not saying you aren't right in any way. I hope you don't think I'm trying to dissect or debate anything in a negative way. I'm just trying to learn and understand factual information. I have a vested interest in making sure the cars I seal and are done to the highest potential possible. I, like many (including the OP) are in search of the truth.
 
My original question did refer to applying pressure to "work" the sealant in.
I did not post a link since it was in a different forum.
I'm also not interested in dissecting the problem or running it into the ground.
All I was/am looking for is if there is a benefit to using pressure to work a sealant into paint.

Hey, if we want to get into a real discussion, I once read a post about how much water the paint on your car absorbed when it got wet. I think it was over 8 ounces. The information came from a very involved person in the industry. Talks big, but I don't know if he is really that knowledgeable.

The one thing I am sure of is my lack of knowledge and unfortunately, I don't really want to know why. I just want to know how. :D
 
Mike.... Your awesome! Thanks for putting up with our scalpels :poke:

Too bad you double posted in my giveaway and are disqualified :p
 
David Fermani said:
I have a vested interest in making sure the cars I seal and are done to the highest potential possible.
Click to expand...

Of course and all passionate detailers feel the same way about sealing their hard work and this is why I endorse and recommend to thoroughly work a wax or paint sealant over and into the surface to whatever level possible for 2-3 passes minimum over each square inch.

This is why I also prefer to use the DA to apply a wax or paint sealant, it is so much more effective than your four fingers pushing down on top of a wax applicator pad.

All you have to do to prove this to yourself is place a finishing pad on a DA Polisher, and then place your hand on the good or a fender and then place the face of the pad onto your and and turn the polisher on and "feel" how well the foam pad is massaging against your skin. (Use the 4.0 to 5.0 speed setting, not the 6.0, it's kind of violent for massaging skin at this speed).



CharlesW said:
My original question did refer to applying pressure to "work" the sealant in.
Click to expand...

The pressure you use is gentle pressure, not excessive, not so light that you can't keep the pad on the surface.

For most of us, we're applying a wax or a paint sealant AFTER doing the correction steps, so at this point there's no need to apply a finishing wax or paint sealant over the surface.


Now if a person is using a cleaner/wax or AIO or One-Step product, (whatever you like to call a product that cleans, polishes and protects in one step), and you're working on a neglected finish, then YES you use firm pressure because part of the cleaning action of a cleaner/wax comes from the chemical cleaners an the abrasives and the other part comes from --> YOU <-- and the passion you put behind the pad.

Put a little passion behind the pad - Mike Phillips

:laughing:


A4 1.8tqm said:
Too bad you double posted in my giveaway and are disqualified :p
Click to expand...

No problemo...


:)
 
When I posted this I was hoping to get a consensus?


Mike.Phillips@Autogeek said:
I actually have behind the scenes projects I have to get back to... before I get back to them, would everyone agree that Microfiber Polishing Cloths offer a lot of benefits?

Agree?

Would we all agree that one of the benefits is the unique ability to REMOVE substances off a smooth surface?

For example removing a coating of wax or paint sealant off the surface?


At least better than a large fiber material can, for example cotton terry cloth?


Can anyone agree with this? That microfiber, or Microscopic Fibers are very good at removing trace substances OFF THE SURFACE?


:)
Click to expand...


Everyone agrees? No one agrees?

If not microfiber? Then what common detailing cloth do we have works better than microfiber to remove products and even the trace residues off the surface?

:)
 
Here's Forrest's opinion on this:

forrest@mothers said:
I think half of that thread is arguing semantics on the word "working".



Even application is really the important thing, in my opinion, of any product, including synthetics.



Products that have abrasives in them (and especially diminishing particle types, need to be "worked" in so the abrasive breaks down and give a uniform finish.



A synthetic sealant - the most important thing is uniform coverage.
Click to expand...
 
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