Lesson Learned... Still Not Over It..

Sounds like you are politely informing them they are ignorant to what "real detailing" is and that they are in fact damaging vehicles.

Todd is known as one of the best in the world for a reason... your car will be in MORE than capable hands :dblthumb2:

Keep us posted.

Some of them do know what real detailing is.....

BUT...

That's not what they are setup for and do at the dealerships because they just don't have that kind of time to play with in that type of setup.

They need to get the cars off the truck and onto the sales lot fast as they can.

Also that goes for service also, in and out as fast as they can.

The guys in the detaling dept would be making more than the mechanics if they were real detailors and that's just not going to happen in the real world because the dealership would go broke in a real hurry. And they would never get any cars out on the lot to sell because it would take too much time per unit.

All they do is prep them and get them out, that usually is just cleaning them up and putting a fast coat of wax on them with a Rotary buffer...... What they do is squirt wax on the cars in various places so they can go over the whole car quick without stopping. Takes like a few mins per car.
 
Some of them do know what real detailing is.....

BUT...

That's not what they are setup for and do at the dealerships because they just don't have that kind of time to play with in that type of setup.

They need to get the cars off the truck and onto the sales lot fast as they can.

Also that goes for service also, in and out as fast as they can.

The guys in the detaling dept would be making more than the mechanics if they were real detailors and that's just not going to happen in the real world because the dealership would go broke in a real hurry. And they would never get any cars out on the lot to sell because it would take too much time per unit.

I understand that dealership "detail shops" are not setup to produce show cars... but actually inflicting damage on a car by improper use of a rotary tool or other non-appropriate products/methods is ridiculous. If you can't wash a car without damaging it, then you shouldn't be offering to wash cars. Or, at least own up to the fact that your wash processes aren't as safe as you think and pay for the damages when the evidence is presented to you. Sure they can get away with it on 99% of their customers, but that doesn't make it "right".

It also drives me nuts that they insist on washing every car... no matter how clean it is to begin with! My car is usually near spotless when I bring it in, but I still have to put signs all over my car and tell them I don't want it washed because they always offer.
 
I understand that dealership "detail shops" are not setup to produce show cars... but actually inflicting damage on a car by improper use of a rotary tool or other non-appropriate products/methods is ridiculous. If you can't wash a car without damaging it, then you shouldn't be offering to wash cars. Or, at least own up to the fact that your wash processes aren't as safe as you think and pay for the damages when the evidence is presented to you. Sure they can get away with it on 99% of their customers, but that doesn't make it "right".

It also drives me nuts that they insist on washing every car... no matter how clean it is to begin with! My car is usually near spotless when I bring it in, but I still have to put signs all over my car and tell them I don't want it washed because they always offer.


I never said it was right, but you answered your own question with what I highlighted.

They can do 2 or 3 thousand cars and only get maybe 1 or 2 that might complain.....

It's the law of percentages.
 
The point I was trying to make in my last few post was:

We here at AG are not like the masses of Soccer Moms and regular duds out there that all their cars are to them is point A to point B transportation. Most of them don't even keep up with regular maintenance like oil changes or new tires when they need them.

So taking that general mindset into count and the fact that the dealerships know this also....

Even taking into count the few who might even wax their car once a year... Maybe......

They just know most people either don't know any better and or just don't care enough about about their cars as long as they start and run when they need them.

But then people at AG do know better and do care about their cars. :)

But we are not in the majority....

So to the masses when the dealership washes their car after service it might have been the 1st time it's been washed in months. So they are like WOW they washed my car and it looks good to them.....
 
I never said it was right, but you answered your own question with what I highlighted.

They can do 2 or 3 thousand cars and only get maybe 1 or 2 that might complain.....

It's the law of percentages.

I actually will supplement the statement made by Zach and put my 2 cents in.

First off, they do not get away with it with 99% of their customers, but do get away with it 99% of the time. A large majority of the customers do realize what happens but here is a break down of what actually happens:

1) 20-30% of the clients are just happy to have a clean car and don't realize what just happened
2) 70-80% notice something different (varying from hmmm to OMG!)

Out of those:

1) Some chalk it to a learnt experience and move on vowing never to come back (ie. I am never going back there)
2) Some will raise a stink (just to voice their discontent) but choose not to bring it up to the next level (and Lord knows the dealership will not step up to the plate)
3) A few will raise a stink and want "reparation" however faced with the corporate structure will decide to back down, after a few failed attempt
4) A very few will bring this to an end (either by way of an unbending personal attempt to bring this to a conclusion or by legal means from small claims <$5000 (in most States) or through a legitimate legal grievance process (mediation through lawsuit)

Unfortunately you are correct that 2/1000 won't change the corporate policies.
 
I actually will supplement the statement made by Zach and put my 2 cents in.

First off, they do not get away with it with 99% of their customers, but do get away with it 99% of the time. A large majority of the customers do realize what happens but here is a break down of what actually happens:

1) 20-30% of the clients are just happy to have a clean car and don't realize what just happened
2) 70-80% notice something different (varying from hmmm to OMG!)

Out of those:

1) Some chalk it to a learnt experience and move on vowing never to come back (ie. I am never going back there)
2) Some will raise a stink (just to voice their discontent) but choose not to bring it up to the next level (and Lord knows the dealership will not step up to the plate)
3) A few will raise a stink and want "reparation" however faced with the corporate structure will decide to back down, after a few failed attempt
4) A very few will bring this to an end (either by way of an unbending personal attempt to bring this to a conclusion or by legal means from small claims <$5000 (in most States) or through a legitimate legal grievance process (mediation through lawsuit)

Unfortunately you are correct that 2/1000 won't change the corporate policies.

:whs:
 
I actually will supplement the statement made by Zach and put my 2 cents in.

First off, they do not get away with it with 99% of their customers, but do get away with it 99% of the time. A large majority of the customers do realize what happens but here is a break down of what actually happens:

1) 20-30% of the clients are just happy to have a clean car and don't realize what just happened
2) 70-80% notice something different (varying from hmmm to OMG!)

Out of those:

1) Some chalk it to a learnt experience and move on vowing never to come back (ie. I am never going back there)
2) Some will raise a stink (just to voice their discontent) but choose not to bring it up to the next level (and Lord knows the dealership will not step up to the plate)
3) A few will raise a stink and want "reparation" however faced with the corporate structure will decide to back down, after a few failed attempt
4) A very few will bring this to an end (either by way of an unbending personal attempt to bring this to a conclusion or by legal means from small claims <$5000 (in most States) or through a legitimate legal grievance process (mediation through lawsuit)

Unfortunately you are correct that 2/1000 won't change the corporate policies.

I doubt the percentages would be that high from what I have seen over the years for the reasons I made in my last post.

And from what I see everyday in general usually.
 
I doubt the percentages would be that high from what I have seen over the years for the reasons I made in my last post.

And from what I see everyday in general usually.

Yeah I think I'd reverse 1 & 2 myself. I'd say easily 80% never notice, or worse NEVER CARE!

I have a guy that I've mentioned before, huge car collector everything from old GM, Dodge & Plymouth muscle cars to new GM, Dodge and Ford muscle cars. His #1 priority.... "Make it shiny". He, even after I buffed half the trunk on his Viper didn't notice the absence of (what I thought were) unlivable swirls. :dunno:

It is that mindset where dealerships/body shops use a rotary and a filler type of wax/glaze/AIO and just pump them out the door. They are not getting PAID to care, especially if the customer will never care. Just sayin'.......



Another note; Earlier in the thread it was mentioned about taking paint readings. You can forget about that. I'd bet a vital organ that the dealership doesn't have one, hasn't ever heard of one, and doesn't care at all about one. Same thing about their body shop, whether in-house or one they send cars to. :dunno:

That not withstanding, I doubt the readings will be so bad that you can't correct it, unless there are some fairly massive RIDS. Then (if they were smart) they could say that the previous paint correction left so little clear that they had no chance going in.

In closing; I'd tell them what it was going to cost and leave it at that. Either they pay it, or we see them in small claims court with the bill AND COURT COSTS. They'll never in a hundred years want that route as it costs more than just paying the bill. ;)


Short story; I had built a rollback back in 89 with a custom paint job. The plan was built specifically to go to the FL Tow Show in Orlando (which is ever April). Two weeks in the engine blows. Ford offered me, (after a week) to put a new piston and head on it. I refused! They then mulled it around for a few days and decided to offer me a new short block. I refused!

Made some phone calls, found the Division Manager up in Dearborn. FedEx'd some photos of the truck and others I'd won trophies with to him. Then called him and said that I was putting a sign under the hood, WHERE THE ENGINE SHOULD BE with a big Ford logo on it that read "pardon the mess, Quality is Job 1". Then the truck was going to be hauled to the Tow Show Friday morning. I go every year and this will not be an exception. Bottom line is the truck was GOING to get a new engine and that is that.

Next morning, (which was Thursday) at 8:00 am my local shop calls me almost in a panic. The guy on the other end; "Who in the hell did you call? What in the hell did you do? How in the hell did you make this happen?!?! "

I calmly replied, "What are you talking about?" The guy said when they came in, sitting on their loading dock was a BRAND NEW CRATE MOTOR. What was most surprising though was that it had been Air Freighted OVER NIGHT! :laughing: He went on to say, "Do you know the freight charge for this &^#$^#$!* thing is over 650 *($%@#$l dollars?" :D

I still calmly just sat there, and asked them when they planned on getting it done, because tomorrow I'm sending a Landall after it and it's going to Orlando. He then said that there was THREE GUYS working on it and if it wouldn't be too much trouble, could I manage to come by this afternoon and pick it up. If I couldn't, they would be happy to deliver it for me. :laughing:

That truck ended up being the best Ford's I ever owned. Put over 270,000 hard working miles on it before I let it go. ;)
 
I doubt the percentages would be that high from what I have seen over the years for the reasons I made in my last post.

And from what I see everyday in general usually.

I will stick with my percentage based on a couple of things. First, and more importantly, I've included the 'My windows are all streaky", "It smells like BO up in here", to "They missed quite a few spots", to "It looks more dirty now than before I brought it in" etc.... ranging from thr raised eyebrow to complete OMG.

I'll also stick to my numbers because of the 20ish years of experience I have detailing. Third, I'll share that I have quite a few "buddies" working in important (non detailing) capacities at local dealerships (courtesy of my primary occupation).

As you may have seen I did not change your 2/1000 numbers because they are relatively accurate and most will just fix the problems (themselves or using someone else) rather than raising a stink.

Granted this is not all dealership and will admit that we are dealing with production work and not high end detailing. You get what you pay for, and usually those are 'courtesy' washes... so why complain about something I haven't paid for. How many people you know rush to the dealerships for a quick wash NOBODY, so again, I am sticking by my numbers
 
Get a quote from a reputable detailer in your area and bring it to the manager
Their detail/body shop will only make it worse, so don't agree to them repairing it
Good luck


Good advice Robert...


And for ANYONE reading this thread into the future...


DON'T WASH CAR !!!!!!!!!!!

Subtitle: How to prevent your car dealership from putting swirls and scratches into your car's paint!


Horror Story
There's a fairly common experience many people suffer through, and "yes" suffer is the correct word because of the agonizing frustration it causes to a "Car Guy" or "Car Gal" plus all the EXTRA work and hassle it causes for the victim of DISO.

In the car detailing discussion forum world I always call it a HORROR STORY, you can call it what you want but it is a horror story because of the damage it causes to your car's precious thin paint.


Here's the problem

You, the nice customer that pays the dealership's overhead, take the car you purchased from them back to them for service, maybe an oil change, maybe some other maintenance procedure.

As a courtesy to you, they have their lot boy or detail shop WASH YOUR CAR!

What they don't have is a clue about is you've already polished your car to perfection and you don't want them to wash your car because when they wash your car they will damage the paint by inflicting swirls and scratches into the clear coat finish.

In most cases, none of the people involved have enough common sense to actually LOOK at the car and notice there's something about this car that's different than most of the cars bought there, and then brought back there for service.

What they don't see is a finish on the car that in most cases is BETTER condition than when they sold you the car and that's because you hang out on a forum like AGO and you've learned the art and craft of polishing paint and have painstakingly polished the paint on your new car to perfection.

Then in a single car wash, they destroy the finish by using tatty wash mitts that have probably been dropped a thousand times onto the ground and the picked right back up an put back into service.

They use towels we wouldn't use to wipe the bottom of our shoes with to dry your car.


The result... a swirled-out, scratched-up mess.


Then when you confront them with the damage they've done it gets worse! Next they offer to detail your car and by this I mean they offer to have their in-house detailer buff your car's paint out.

The problem with this of course is most dealerships have,

Untrained employees or employees that don't have the "correct" training.
Tatty wool and foam pads not worthy of being used on the paint of a garbage dumpster.
Archaic, Caveman Quality compounds and polishes that are more akin to liquid sandpaper.
And alas... only a well-worn, rotary buffer. Nothing wrong with a rotary buffer but the fact is in the wrong hands with the wrong pads and the wrong products it's going to be used to inflict holograms into your car's paint at the same time the "technician" is removing the swirls and scratches that were instilled when the car was washed and dried.


Now here's the really bad news....

When swirls, scratches and holograms are instilled into your car's precious thin paint job, these are VOIDS in the paint where the depth of these swirls and scratches is below the surface.

Putting swirls, scratches and holograms into paint is REMOVING paint.

To fix the problem the right way will mean removing a little more paint.


See the problem?

The paint was thin to start with from the factory and now due to no fault of your own the paint is now filled with swirls and scratches and fixing the problem will leave your paint thinner that it already was. For what you pay for a new car... you don't deserve this atrocity.

If you let the dealership fix it and they simply replace one type of scratch pattern with a new type of scratch pattern, then "you" fixing their botched buff job will mean removing paint again.


Starting to see why these types of incidents are Horror Stories?


Here's a solution to the problem...

Here's a simple way to avoid this whole mess, here's a way to avoid being just another horror story posted to a forum somewhere...


Print out a few signs that say,

DON'T WASH CAR



Tape these signs to the inside windows of your car. The more you distrust the people at your dealership the more signs you put inside the car.

I recommend choosing the option of creating a document in "Landscape" mode versus the normal "Portrait" mode and then bump the font size up to about 140 and use Arial Font and then make the font BOLD. In other words, just like you see I've done below.


Dont_Wash_Car_001.jpg


Dont_Wash_Car_002.jpg


Dont_Wash_Car_003.jpg


Dont_Wash_Car_004.jpg


Dont_Wash_Car_005.jpg




But don't stop here... no no no...

In a polite but stern manner, point the signs out to the Service Manager. Tell them you now a little bit about car detailing and you don't want them to wash your car, truck or suv.

Take a moment to point out how nice your car's finish looks. IF you have a Swirl Finder Light, whip it out and shine it on the paint. Educate the Service Manager on how to inspect paint for swirls and then point out that your car DOESN'T HAVE ANY!


Maybe ask them,


Hey, doesn't it look like I just waxed this car?
(Especially if you have just waxed it)


Then say, that's because I did just wax it and it doesn not need to be washed. Then in a very polite and professional manner, just tell the Service Manager that you really don't want them to wash, or wax or do anything to the exterior of your car that it doesn't need it and when it does you'll take care of it.


Be professional. Be courteous. But above all, be pro-active.

Don't assume anyone at the dealership has enough common sense to look at "your" car and see that it's meticulously detailed and doesn't need to be washed. These people are use to routines. It's there knee-jerk habit to do a courtesy wash for all their customers and for 99.9% of their customers this is perfectly okay.

But for you, the person that is educated on the topic of car paint and car paint polishing, it's not okay.


Hope this helps, please feel encouraged to share the link to this article with all your friends that go out and buy a brand new car.



:)
 
I saw all I needed to see at the dealer I ordered my car from. Drove by it the other day. Guy was out there with a Chamois cloth in a bunch scrubbing with plenty of elbow grease! His big rotational buffer laying pad-down in the ground next to him. And... you guessed it! He picked the buffer up and starting working.

I stand by my thinking that I can't imagine why they would resist me asking them not to wash it. It's LESS work for them. I suspect they just get offended because they think they are doing a pretty good job. They just don't know any better. It looks clean and shiny, right? Like another thread where a guy had a 'how to wash a car' video where he did EVERYTHING wrong, and was vehemently defending it. He seriously doesn't know any better. Go into a parking lot (especially an apartment building or somewhere else where the cars live outside 24/7) and see how many less-than-10-year-old cars have serious clearcoat failure.

I live in an apartment. My '02 Taurus is parked next to an '05 Chevy Cavalier. The Chevy is even the same color! (Silver). Has almost no clear left on the roof and peeling/cracking/total failure everywhere. Rarely washed, never waxed. My Taurus I've had way before I started to learn about detailing. But I DID know they needed to be waxed, so it was waxed every month or so. It's not a show car by any means, but there is zero clear coat failure and it looks pretty good. I'm sure the lady who owns the cavalier either doesn't care, or has no idea that paint requires maintenance just like an engine.

Heck, I've had people tell me paint only lasts 5-7 years. Then how do you explain all of these 60's and 70's cars with original paint? Or, heck, some of the daily drivers I've run into the ground? (I keep 'em until the wheels fall off). Rock chips, sometimes even rust, certain mechanical wear, tears in the seat, etc., but after decades and hundreds (yes, plural) of thousands of miles, I've never had a car with clear coat failure or severe oxidation. And, heck, a lot of those cars were bought used and pre-neglected!

BUT; that's me, and that's you guys, but it's not most people. Most people are really happy that their dealer washes their car for them. Saves them a $6 trip to the auto car wash.
 
Yeah I think I'd reverse 1 & 2 myself. I'd say easily 80% never notice, or worse NEVER CARE!


That truck ended up being the best Ford's I ever owned. Put over 270,000 hard working miles on it before I let it go. ;)

Awesome truck story. :xyxthumbs:
 
I saw all I needed to see at the dealer I ordered my car from. Drove by it the other day. Guy was out there with a Chamois cloth in a bunch scrubbing with plenty of elbow grease! His big rotational buffer laying pad-down in the ground next to him. And... you guessed it! He picked the buffer up and starting working.

I stand by my thinking that I can't imagine why they would resist me asking them not to wash it. It's LESS work for them. I suspect they just get offended because they think they are doing a pretty good job. They just don't know any better. It looks clean and shiny, right? Like another thread where a guy had a 'how to wash a car' video where he did EVERYTHING wrong, and was vehemently defending it. He seriously doesn't know any better. Go into a parking lot (especially an apartment building or somewhere else where the cars live outside 24/7) and see how many less-than-10-year-old cars have serious clearcoat failure.

I live in an apartment. My '02 Taurus is parked next to an '05 Chevy Cavalier. The Chevy is even the same color! (Silver). Has almost no clear left on the roof and peeling/cracking/total failure everywhere. Rarely washed, never waxed. My Taurus I've had way before I started to learn about detailing. But I DID know they needed to be waxed, so it was waxed every month or so. It's not a show car by any means, but there is zero clear coat failure and it looks pretty good. I'm sure the lady who owns the cavalier either doesn't care, or has no idea that paint requires maintenance just like an engine.

Heck, I've had people tell me paint only lasts 5-7 years. Then how do you explain all of these 60's and 70's cars with original paint? Or, heck, some of the daily drivers I've run into the ground? (I keep 'em until the wheels fall off). Rock chips, sometimes even rust, certain mechanical wear, tears in the seat, etc., but after decades and hundreds (yes, plural) of thousands of miles, I've never had a car with clear coat failure or severe oxidation. And, heck, a lot of those cars were bought used and pre-neglected!

BUT; that's me, and that's you guys, but it's not most people. Most people are really happy that their dealer washes their car for them. Saves them a $6 trip to the auto car wash.


I am not at all surprised.

All I have to do is walk out my front door and see all of the neglect and that's not even looking for it.

And I don't live in an apartment.
 
Well they offered 300 and the quote to fix it and protect it from Todd in Columbus is $2,000. Next step is small claims court

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk
 
Awesome truck story. :xyxthumbs:

You should have been there! ;)

We ended up driving all night Friday night to get to Orlando. Front spoiler on the bed of the truck, putting it on in the parking lot with flashlights before sun up. Also hauled a 65 Mustang convertible that was a 4 time (out of 5) MCA Grand National Award Winner to quite a few shows back then. (Didn't hurt to have it on the bed at all.) ;)

We went on to not only win First Place in the rollback division, but Best of Show. :)
They had never seen a rollback with neon underneath till then. :laughing:
Even beat out a $300,000 50 Ton Rotator with a crew of 10 all sporting white starched button up shirts with a silkscreen of the rotator on back! :D Ahhhhh, those were the days.:dblthumb2:
 
Well they offered 300 and the quote to fix it and protect it from Todd in Columbus is $2,000. Next step is small claims court

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk

Sounds about right. Todd's services come at a premium price, no doubt about it. I'm sure the dealership thought you were insane when you told them that.
 
Well they offered 300 and the quote to fix it and protect it from Todd in Columbus is $2,000. Next step is small claims court
Just wondering:

Are you going to have Mr. Cooperider fix the damages/protect your vehicle...
no matter the Court's Finding?

:)

Bob
 
Well they offered 300 and the quote to fix it and protect it from Todd in Columbus is $2,000. Next step is small claims court

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk

Wow! The DISO must have been really really bad. Sorry to hear you have to go through this :( Hopefully you can get it worked out.
 
Back
Top