Outrageously priced products...

Profits said:
Certainly not over priced. You really do get what you pay for, and the market guarantees it. The market is the great equalizer, and the market is not stupid. I'm a member and lurker of many automotive forums and blogs, and my eyeballs tend to gravitate to the comments sections. What I find both amusing and sad is how polarized internet automotive enthusiasts are. What I've found to be the case is that most people actually are NOT automotive enthusiasts at all, they're XYZ brand enthusiasts. Or an enthusiast of a market segment. Or enthusiasts of a country of manufacture. It's very similar to religion. There's no winning any argument, there's no rationality, thought, or objectivity. It's purely emotional.

I happen to be of the opinion that American autos are some of the lowest quality and poorly designed products in the market place. They have one advantage, and that is price. They make inexpensive cars that are inexpensive to maintain, which appeal to people who are not willing or able to pay a whole lot for a vehicle. And that's fine... like I said, you get what you pay for. But their legions of fans take it into the realm of the bazaar and somehow are of the opinion that their Chevy Cruz is a superior quality vehicle to your $120k Porsche CS because their $12k Chevy doesn't require random $4k maintenance once a year. What it comes down to is that's what they own, and for some reason everyone gets a big head about what they own. It typically makes them have a complete inability to be critical of it.

Over the years, I've found that most of the time it's pretty much pointless to have a conversation with any of these people, and I have to bite my tongue every time I am reading their comments.
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You, sir, are the man.
 
I have a younger friend in his mid 30s. He always wanted a Nissan GTR or a similar fast ride. He could have easily afforded it. He had concerns as to how others would view such an expensive purchase. He never bought it. He has been diagnosed with a very aggressive cancer within the last few days and will be dead very soon with no chance of treatment. My point is if you really want and can afford an extravagant item buy it. The very last reason not to buy something that you really want is to worry about what someone else thinks about it. I had one of the 400.00 sure fire flashlights. mine was a lemon. The company replaced it after 2 years of use with some battery charging issues. I have an Ed Brown 45 Kobra carry compact LW which costs 3500.00. It feeds all of my ammo flawlessly and shoots great. Expensive yes but it does its job every single time . A friend bought a new Purdy over-under shotgun. Completely handmade to order-160K. To me that is completely out of any form of reason but he worked all,of,his adult life and always wants one and it makes him happy. So my opinion is a non issue because it is his money. I recently did a take off on the operating costs of all recently owned vehicles considering ,repairs, tires, and what I recovered when the car was sold. The winner was a 98 BMW a BMW 540 I which I drove until 2007 with 147k miles. The American made SUVs and autos were cheaper to buy but hit me with repair bills around 80-100k.I do not own a BMW at present but my track record with this brand is rock solid. As per the previous posting the marketplace will flush out the bad deals and quality is rewarded. Most of the time you get what you pay for.
 
^. Good points and well said. Just to compare, I've own/owned Japanese cars and German cars. No comparison on the repair-ability of the two. I hate working on Japanese cars of any age because of the poor quality of the fasteners.

German cars unbolt and bolt back together so much easier. Every time I work on my Nissan I have my fingers and toes crossed nothing will strip, snap, or break. BMWs you can take the whole car apart and it goes back together good as new 10x.

The quality and diameter of the fasteners is much better on German cars. I can't remember once having an "issue" with a bolt or threads on a German car. Every bolt head under my Nissan has turned to rust.

Don't know how it is now, but I remember when American cars where just as bad. When I worked for Ford in the 1990s there was a recall on the F Series. It seems Ford put on some cheap fasteners on the bumpers. The bolts were shearing off left and right.

Guys would come in with their 3 week old F250 on a flat bed with the front bumper hitting the ground on one side. It fell off when driving like 50mph and bent and scratched up the whole front of the truck. The bolts Ford was using to hold those steel bumpers on where like the bolts BMW uses to hold on my plastic air cleaner box.
 
swanicyouth said:
^. Good points and well said. Just to compare, I've own/owned Japanese cars and German cars. No comparison on the repair-ability of the two. I hate working on Japanese cars of any age because of the poor quality of the fasteners.

German cars unbolt and bolt back together so much easier. Every time I work on my Nissan I have my fingers and toes crossed nothing will strip, snap, or break. BMWs you can take the whole car apart and it goes back together good as new 10x.

The quality and diameter of the fasteners is much better on German cars. I can't remember once having an "issue" with a bolt or threads on a German car. Every bolt head under my Nissan has turned to rust.

Don't know how it is now, but I remember when American cars where just as bad. When I worked for Ford in the 1990s there was a recall on the F Series. It seems Ford put on some cheap fasteners on the bumpers. The bolts were shearing off left and right.

Guys would come in with their 3 week old F250 on a flat bed with the front bumper hitting the ground on one side. It fell off when driving like 50mph and bent and scratched up the whole front of the truck. The bolts Ford was using to hold those steel bumpers on where like the bolts BMW uses to hold on my plastic air cleaner box.
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Well said Steve. The Germans really know how to over engineer their vehicles. Its like driving a tank.

Have you ever listened to the way a door sounds when closed on a German car compared to Japanese cars?
 
Profits said:
Certainly not over priced. You really do get what you pay for, and the market guarantees it. The market is the great equalizer, and the market is not stupid. I'm a member and lurker of many automotive forums and blogs, and my eyeballs tend to gravitate to the comments sections. What I find both amusing and sad is how polarized internet automotive enthusiasts are. What I've found to be the case is that most people actually are NOT automotive enthusiasts at all, they're XYZ brand enthusiasts. Or an enthusiast of a market segment. Or enthusiasts of a country of manufacture. It's very similar to religion. There's no winning any argument, there's no rationality, thought, or objectivity. It's purely emotional.

I happen to be of the opinion that American autos are some of the lowest quality and poorly designed products in the market place. They have one advantage, and that is price. They make inexpensive cars that are inexpensive to maintain, which appeal to people who are not willing or able to pay a whole lot for a vehicle. And that's fine... like I said, you get what you pay for. But their legions of fans take it into the realm of the bazaar and somehow are of the opinion that their Chevy Cruz is a superior quality vehicle to your $120k Porsche CS because their $12k Chevy doesn't require random $4k maintenance once a year. What it comes down to is that's what they own, and for some reason everyone gets a big head about what they own. It typically makes them have a complete inability to be critical of it.

Over the years, I've found that most of the time it's pretty much pointless to have a conversation with any of these people, and I have to bite my tongue every time I am reading their comments.
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Right on target Profits, I think you posted something before similar when talking about the Porsche 911 and Corvette, 2 cars that have always beeb compared to each other, why I don't know. For the record I love Corvettes, mid-years inparticular but as time has moved forward, the 911 has gotten better and better and the Corvette has "tried" to get better. The "bang for the buck" thing is a crutch that's getting old and tired, instead of saying this all the time how about just making a better car, forget the "bells and whistles" and just perfect the car. The C6 tested on Fifth Gear had squeaky interior bits and they were called out for it but I'm sure everyone with a C6 said "yeah, but its got the 427, in your face Germans!" The thing is, people whom buy Porsches buy them, on the other hand, people whom buy Vettes can't buy a Porsche, for the most part. Maybe if quality were the norm for the Corvette you might get the "fence sitters" to buy your product over the Porsche but until then, the Woodward generation and their fat guts, terrible Corvette shirts, gold chains around the neck and wrists and gawdy dress up items from Mid-America will continue to keep the bar low for Americas only true sports car!

Oh and BTW, memo to Corvette, the rear of the C7 looks horrible and if your going to continue to talk the talk about competing w/ Ferrari, well, the F12 Berlinetta has 740 hp, hope the upcoming ZR1 has what it takes and more than the dreaded "bang for the buck" too!!

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Klasse Act said:
Right on target Profits, I think you posted something before similar when talking about the Porsche 911 and Corvette, 2 cars that have always beeb compared to each other, why I don't know. For the record I love Corvettes, mid-years inparticular but as time has moved forward, the 911 has gotten better and better and the Corvette has "tried" to get better. The "bang for the buck" thing is a crutch that's getting old and tired, instead of saying this all the time how about just making a better car, forget the "bells and whistles" and just perfect the car. The C6 tested on Fifth Gear had squeaky interior bits and they were called out for it but I'm sure everyone with a C6 said "yeah, but its got the 427, in your face Germans!" The thing is, people whom buy Porsches buy them, on the other hand, people whom buy Vettes can't buy a Porsche, for the most part. Maybe if quality were the norm for the Corvette you might get the "fence sitters" to buy your product over the Porsche but until then, the Woodward generation and their fat guts, terrible Corvette shirts, gold chains around the neck and wrists and gawdy dress up items from Mid-America will continue to keep the bar low for Americas only true sports car!

Oh and BTW, memo to Corvette, the rear of the C7 looks horrible and if your going to continue to talk the talk about competing w/ Ferrari, well, the F12 Berlinetta has 740 hp, hope the upcoming ZR1 has what it takes and more than the dreaded "bang for the buck" too!!

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Why so much hate for the corvette? Or is it the crowd that buys them the ones who you don't like?
I hope you're not comparing a Ferrari to a corvette that is 3x the price..
 
KillaCam said:
Why so much hate for the corvette? Or is it the crowd that buys them the ones who you don't like?
I hope you're not comparing a Ferrari to a corvette that is 3x the price..
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Its not the car so much, although we all agree it could and more importantly SHOULD be better, given its been around for 6 decades! Your 2nd point is probably more of the issue for me. Not sure how it is everywhere else but the "average" Vette owner is overweight and older, not old, there's a difference and because of this compramises have been made, especially with the seats and my biggest sticking point, too many autotragics, its a sports car for God's sake! Yeah, put it in OD, put your hamhocks out the window and rest your ever sweating forearms on the door, complete w/ gold chain, this is why, IMO, why the car has been substandard for so long, the people who buy them don't care, just as long as the car gets them laid and people look at them, pathetic! I grew up in Detroit and saw this all the time, large sample size (pardon the pun) and its just how it is.

Then there's the 3rd point, the F12 is 3x's the price, even more of the reason we're going to hear "bang for the buck" over and over and over! Let's say the C7 ZR1 has 750+ hp and competes, so what, how's the quality of the car, does it stand out...no, the Ferrari, the new Viper and C7 all look very similar, too similar, why not go outside the box and create something unique like you did in the 60's, look at a 62 and then a 63, then a 67 and then a 68, one extreme to another, sadly they went away from that and that brings me back to the 911, evolutionary!

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swanicyouth said:
^. Good points and well said. Just to compare, I've own/owned Japanese cars and German cars. No comparison on the repair-ability of the two. I hate working on Japanese cars of any age because of the poor quality of the fasteners.

German cars unbolt and bolt back together so much easier. Every time I work on my Nissan I have my fingers and toes crossed nothing will strip, snap, or break. BMWs you can take the whole car apart and it goes back together good as new 10x.

The quality and diameter of the fasteners is much better on German cars. I can't remember once having an "issue" with a bolt or threads on a German car. Every bolt head under my Nissan has turned to rust.

Don't know how it is now, but I remember when American cars where just as bad. When I worked for Ford in the 1990s there was a recall on the F Series. It seems Ford put on some cheap fasteners on the bumpers. The bolts were shearing off left and right.

Guys would come in with their 3 week old F250 on a flat bed with the front bumper hitting the ground on one side. It fell off when driving like 50mph and bent and scratched up the whole front of the truck. The bolts Ford was using to hold those steel bumpers on where like the bolts BMW uses to hold on my plastic air cleaner box.
Click to expand...

Really!?!? Maybe thats the reason i kept stripping and snapping bolts on my subaru lol
 
Profits said:
But their legions of fans take it into the realm of the bazaar and somehow are of the opinion that their Chevy Cruz is a superior quality vehicle to your $120k Porsche CS because their $12k Chevy doesn't require random $4k maintenance once a year.
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For some, that does make it a better car. Heck, one of my good friends has an '07 Porsche 911 that he bought new. And a Honda Accord! The Accord is his daily driver. Cheap car, cheap to maintain, cheap tires. The Porsche is NOT an inexpensive car to keep on the road (even if it is reliable, maintenance and tires alone make it more expensive to own than even the most unreliable American auto), so he makes the miles counts and only drives it when he can enjoy it! That's the case for a lot of exotic car owners. So back that price tag up a bit, and you could certainly see why someone who might be able to afford a $60,000 German car sees more value in a $45,000 American car; given that this is a daily driver and not something they can park.

Although I know what you're saying. The whole 'foreign cars are junk' because of the cost of maintenance and such. But, according to a lot of the car magazines, a lot of the exotics and high end BMW's and Porsche models are low on the reliability list. Performance means heat, heat means part wear. But then, Formula 1 cars require a new engine every couple of races. Sometimes pure reliability isn't what you are after!

I absolutely agree that the argument is often more emotional than anything; which is silly. These are companies. They want your money. Make them earn it. Don't just give them your business because you have some odd emotional attachment to them! Some in my wifes family are die hard Chevrolet people. I've owned Chevy's in the past, but right now, I don't own one. They tell me all the time, "Look at how many old Chevy's you see on the road!". Well, A) That only insenuates they were well built then, B) We have no way of knowing how much money went in to keeping that car on the road (A $6,000 repair is still cheaper than a new car), and C) You see a ton of Japanese cars, Chryslers, and Fords on the road too!

I do think the American autos are getting better. Better than what they were 10 years ago. Especially in the lower end segment. They are treading in dangerous territory with some of their higher priced cars. A well optioned Taurus could approach $50,000. Aforementioned Escalade and 'Luxury' trucks are approaching $70k+. That puts them in scary competition. It's one thing to sell a decent $20,000 car. It's entirely another to put your competition away from Japanese econo-cars and the big three, into big name German and even Italian cars.
 
Yeah, $50K Taurus, a SHO, is in VERY dangerous territory, like S4 land and I'm sorry, no way I'm buying a large, cramped and bloated Taurus over an Audi, sorry! Just look at the interior of the Audi and that alone seals the deal, then drive it and not to mention they've been making their Quattro system since the Covette was available with an weezing 305 in CA, remember those days???

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Klasse Act said:
Yeah, $50K Taurus, a SHO, is in VERY dangerous territory, like S4 land and I'm sorry, no way I'm buying a large, cramped and bloated Taurus over an Audi, sorry! Just look at the interior of the Audi and that alone seals the deal, then drive it and not to mention they've been making their Quattro system since the Covette was available with an weezing 305 in CA, remember those days???

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Well, I like the Taurus actually, LOL. But; I'm not shopping for one either. That price point becomes dangerous for precisely that; what else might I like better for my $50k?
 
07RS4 said:
This turned into a my vehicle choice is better than yours thread...

does it really make people feel better to slam people's choices in vehicles,
yet somehow try to validate their own?

I don't get it, who cares...

if someone has the means to spend on a vehicle, then so be it.
I really, really enjoy driving my $70K "leather plastic and faux wood" car....so what's it to ya?

I'm enlisted AF and that's where I chose to spend my hard earned money...and?

Sorry for the rant fellas...
I truly never understood why being so passive aggressive behind a keyboard makes people feel so good about themselves.
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^^^:iagree:^^^

Thanks for your post, 07RS4 ...
Says a lot about bashing.

Except:
Except for those individuals that bash other individuals about their:
Personage, physicality, preening, attire, accoutrements, etc.....

Pointing out the fallacies of doing so...on any forum...
to those that practice this type of passive-aggressive bashing behind a keyboard:
Is usually what I consider a practice in futility; wasted effort.

It appears that they always must be dealt with in a more acute---(less obtuse, as it were)---More acute-manner.
I was raised, and believe in, that time-honored fashion.

Bob
 
Well here's the thing Socrates, just looking at $50k, its a lot of money and IMO as well as a lot of others opinion, I better be getting what I paid for. Its not about having the 4, interlaced rings on the front but rather what that company stands for, builds and backs up with its history. When you enter the ring with the champ you better have trained and trained well, no matter what your emblem is and/or stands for!

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Klasse Act said:
Well here's the thing Socrates, just looking at $50k, its a lot of money and IMO as well as a lot of others opinion, I better be getting what I paid for. Its not about having the 4, interlaced rings on the front but rather what that company stands for, builds and backs up with its history. When you enter the ring with the champ you better have trained and trained well, no matter what your emblem is and/or stands for!

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There are a LOT of people who will just buy whatever 'their brand' has. I know quite a few like that. If they want a Luxury sedan? They'll go to the dealer and ask what kind of Chevrolet (or Ford, or Chrysler, or Fiat, or whatever their love-affair lord-and-savior brand is) luxury sedans are in stock.

I've quite literally heard someone say they wish their brand made a car like the other brand, because they really want that car. (But of course, they can only buy it if it's from their brand).
 
I guess you can add me to the minority that thinks German cars are overpriced. If I'm buying a BMW, I shouldn't be able to grab the hood and twist it in half. Don't believe me? Go to an auto show and try it for yourself. And yes, I'm that guy that tries breaking the cars at the auto shows and has succeeded at it multiple times, on all brands.

I really could care less if someone owns and expensive car. What they do with there money is not my problem, nor do I think differently of those people.
 
Most of us a suckers and overpay for most things. But so what if it turns you on. What do we work for. The only problem is when you pay for something and it turns out not to be worth the price or you could have bought it for less down the block.

But when it comes to fine merchandise or great products or stores, if you need to ask the price you should not be shopping. ( or that is what the sales man in in RR store or in Nieman Marcus
 
Klasse Act said:
Its not the car so much, although we all agree it could and more importantly SHOULD be better, given its been around for 6 decades! Your 2nd point is probably more of the issue for me. Not sure how it is everywhere else but the "average" Vette owner is overweight and older, not old, there's a difference and because of this compramises have been made, especially with the seats and my biggest sticking point, too many autotragics, its a sports car for God's sake! Yeah, put it in OD, put your hamhocks out the window and rest your ever sweating forearms on the door, complete w/ gold chain, this is why, IMO, why the car has been substandard for so long, the people who buy them don't care, just as long as the car gets them laid and people look at them, pathetic! I grew up in Detroit and saw this all the time, large sample size (pardon the pun) and its just how it is.

Then there's the 3rd point, the F12 is 3x's the price, even more of the reason we're going to hear "bang for the buck" over and over and over! Let's say the C7 ZR1 has 750+ hp and competes, so what, how's the quality of the car, does it stand out...no, the Ferrari, the new Viper and C7 all look very similar, too similar, why not go outside the box and create something unique like you did in the 60's, look at a 62 and then a 63, then a 67 and then a 68, one extreme to another, sadly they went away from that and that brings me back to the 911, evolutionary!

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Not really a fan of Porsches at all. They all have that same boring design year after year with those ugly headlights. The only thing evolutionary to come from Porsche is the Carrera GT.
 
Chris's FX4 said:
I guess you can add me to the minority that thinks German cars are overpriced. If I'm buying a BMW, I shouldn't be able to grab the hood and twist it in half. Don't believe me? Go to an auto show and try it for yourself. And yes, I'm that guy that tries breaking the cars at the auto shows and has succeeded at it multiple times, on all brands.

I really could care less if someone owns and expensive car. What they do with there money is not my problem, nor do I think differently of those people.
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This is just for the sake of discussion, but sometimes arguments like "You can twist the hood" aren't great arguments. Metal being able to flex without braking or staying in that position is a great technology. Not only does that flexing hood help absorb energy in a crash, but it will also resist dents and dings. My old Saturn was like that, and I loved it. Everything twisted and flexed. It was a plastic body! It was great!

It's easy to look at a heavy steel pickup and think it's better because it's more rigid, but it's kind of like looking at the aftermath of a crash. You look at some old car from the 50's hitting a modern sedan. The sedan is trashed. Front end is gone. Tires and wheels are nowhere to be found. The 50's car looks like it can be driven from the scene. Someone, somewhere is saying "They don't make 'em like they used to!". Well; thank God they don't! Because the 50's car didn't crush, break, or bend, the force of the impact was transferred into the passenger compartment. Outdated (or non existant) seatbelts, no airbags, and before you know it, the driver of the smashed up car is standing outside the window looking at an unconcious bloody pulp that was once the 50's car frantically pleading with 911 to get there fast.

Saw nearly that happen myself. Bunch of classic cars leaving after a car show. 1960's Ford pickup slammed into some idiot in a BMW who cut him off (I guess the BMW driver felt like he was too important to get behind the Ford). But, the bimmer driver misjudged the speed of the old Ford and impact was made. The BMW was smashed to pieces, while the Ford just had a rolled bumper. The BMW driver (who didn't even bother to check on the other driver) was already frantically calling his insurance agent to make sure he could get his car fixed, while a paramedic who just happened to be there (off duty) was working on the driver of the Ford. Ambulance got there, got him out of the truck, took him to a field so the helicopter could take him. He had a seatbelt on, but took all of the impact energy himself and didn't even have airbags to help him take the impact.

The fact is, those easy-to-crush cars take the energy of the impact. The truck will be good to go with a new bumper. But what good is it if you can't drive it anymore?

And yes, someone there at the scene mentioned how much 'better built' that old Ford was than the BMW.

KillaCam said:
Not really a fan of Porsches at all. They all have that same boring design year after year with those ugly headlights. The only thing evolutionary to come from Porsche is the Carrera GT.
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Porsche is a lot like Harley-Davidson in that regard. If H-D or Porsche changed their style, they may pick up a whole new crop of loyal followers. (Both brands have basically not changed what they looked like in 50 years, H-D hasn't changed much at ALL, even in the way of engine technology). BUT; they would lose the huge cult following they each have. A niche is a niche. In the case of both of these examples, it's a big niche.
 
Romans5.8 said:
This is just for the sake of discussion, but sometimes arguments like "You can twist the hood" aren't great arguments. Metal being able to flex without braking or staying in that position is a great technology. Not only does that flexing hood help absorb energy in a crash, but it will also resist dents and dings. My old Saturn was like that, and I loved it. Everything twisted and flexed. It was a plastic body! It was great!
Click to expand...
It's other arguments and issues besides the "twisting" hood that make me think they are over priced. Everything from interior pieces, how doors close, rattles from knocking on pieces, and stuff like that. This is what I have seen with them, I'm sure what others have seen is different.
 
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