Help!!! Black Label Surface Cleansing Polish not removing, clumping

[Ike21]

Hey all,

I'm having some problems with removing Pinnacle Black Label Surface Polish in preparation for Black Label Diamond Surface Coating application. Now, I am a former detailer, but I have been out of the business since '07, and haven't applied a coating before. Lots has happened in 7 years! I would imagine the surface needs to be free of any and all contaminants (including dust and microfiber lint) before application, or the coating would likely trap those contaminants within or underneath the coating layer, correct? With the surface polish not removing completely, I'm at a loss for how to proceed.
I've noticed two distinct issues so far:

First the polish seems to "clump" into long, almost rolled bunches at the edges of my microfiber wiping zone towards the end of the removal wipedown... below are two pictures, from different spots:






This stuff will wipe off with micro, but is a pain in the rear, as it wants to redeposit on random areas of paint all the time. Relatively deep nap towels (Wolfgang Concours edgeless, bought on BOGO) do a decent job of containment, but it's taking one full towel per 1/2 panel! I don't have enough on hand to keep up!

The second big problem is this:



Areas are forming on the panel where the product is impossible to remove by microfiber alone (unless using a dangerous amount of pressure). I can wipe them off with my palm or fingertip, and I immediately notice the same kind of sticky clumps.

It looks as though both are a collection of microfiber lint bound together by a gummy (but not necessarily sticky) substance. I'm assuming that the gummy substance is the polish, and not underlying product like Meg's UP residue being stripped. But I could be wrong... is this the way it reacts to an underlying product? I tried applying by machine to strip a somewhat stubborn LSP towards the beginning of the process (after washing and before claying) and got the same results, which I chalked up to overworking with the polisher. I decided to hand apply since I don't have a decent DA polisher with variable speed (anyone looking to donate one to a good cause? ).
I've tried applying the stuff with well folded microfiber towels, foam pads, terry pads, microfiber pads, using distilled water spray on the panel before and/or after, using only one "drop" of product per panel, using a large dollop per panel, wiping on then literally wiping off ... all with similar results in the end. The microfiber pad applicator with a spritz of water before removal seems to give the best results, but still leaves a lot of elbow grease behind for me to remove it all... and I'm still not certain ALL of it is gone.

Needless to say, this doesn't sound at all like the product description! I can't do this on an entire car... not to mention spending days of work only to get a failing coating if there is residual product left behind.

I did read this article, and associated threads, but had no luck with their suggestions:
http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/auto-detailing-101/75875-dp-prep-polish-vs-pbl.html

Just to summarize my conditions and procedures:

All work was done in a closed garage, with around 45% to 50% RH, at around 70 to 75 degrees.
Car is a new 2014 Honda Accord, silver/grey metallic color. Paint was in extremely poor condition for a new car (NEVER buy a car at dusk... I learned the hard way). Lots of overspray, lots of rail dust (hidden in the grey metallic), and surface roughness (not sure if it was just overspray, but the paint was extremely "grabby" towards micro at first).
Did a wash, LSP strip, Iron-X, Nanoskin fine sponge with glide 7:1 (which gave me dense RIDS, GRRR, not happy with that!), with Meg's UC, and Meg's UP on the test panel.
The test panel was actually my trunk lid, as it was at a convenient height, and the worst damaged.
I made sure to shake the bottle of SCP well, and even tried some polish direct from the bottle, bypassing the pump. No dice.

Perhaps it's a problem with my particular batch, or individual bottle I received. Maybe I just got old stock?? Although I would imagine this top quality stuff would have a 7 year plus shelf life. Is it simply a problem with my microfiber towels shedding too much? I've been using old (5 to 8 years old, when they still had nice piped edges) Meg's supreme shine micros for the initial wipedown, followed by a Wolfgang for the follow-up wipes. Do all micro. towels start degrading and shedding with age perhaps? Even on the spots that get "clean-er", there are still around 10 small bits of microfiber remaining... I can't seem to get it any cleaner than that! Is there something else that I'm missing?

Can't wait to finally get that rewarding experience worthy of Black Label!! :dblthumb2:

-Mike

 

[expdetailing]

Did you try rewetting the clumps with additional product, then wiping?

 

[custmsprty]

I can't really comment on all the details you posted other than to say I have used with excellent results the PBL Cleaner / Sealant (not the coating). Super easy on and off of both products. Machine applied both with Rupes DA.

I will say I HATE the pump and wish this had a flip top, you can't shake it enough to get it mixed since the pump tube is always on the bottom. I found a flip top that fits and ditched the pump, especially on the sealant. I hope someone at AG is listening. rops:

This is the one two punch on my GC PBL Combo: This is before I topped it with Blackfire Black Ice.

 

[EVOlved]

Sounds like you may have used too much product. I had the exact opposite when I used PBL CP it was the easiest thing I ever used. You need very little on the pad run the polisher on a relatively low speed and just a few passes are needed. I think it may be a combination of too much product and speed. Let us in more on your process with the CP specifically.

 

[Setec Astronomy]

Perhaps you should post your location. It's possible you have a member right around the block that could help you with this.

 

[swanicyouth]

You used to much. But, you probably used a lot to prime/wet your pad. The trick is to prime the pad with DI water in a spray bottle (polish is water based) then use a few drops of product on the pad. If you do this it will wipe off quite easily.

 

[KneeDragr]

I used the cleansing polish and noticed a bit of residue so I did an IPA wipedown afterwards and inspected under bright light - nothing left over so I applied the PBL coating.

 

[cleanmycorolla]

This is the result of using too much product, dial it back and it won't be an issue

 

[Dr_Pain]

I with the majority as far as too much product, or maybe the product got too hot and baked on (similar to compounds). In that case, cooler area, cooler pads, slower speed and less pressure would be the key

 

[Ike21]

I can't really comment on all the details you posted other than to say I have used with excellent results the PBL Cleaner / Sealant (not the coating). Super easy on and off of both products. Machine applied both with Rupes DA.

I will say I HATE the pump and wish this had a flip top, you can't shake it enough to get it mixed since the pump tube is always on the bottom. I found a flip top that fits and ditched the pump, especially on the sealant. I hope someone at AG is listening. rops:

This is the one two punch on my GC PBL Combo: This is before I topped it with Blackfire Black Ice.

Wow! Gorgeous results! I hope I can eventually get to something similar, but it won't be nearly as awesome as with that nice black color.

As far as the bottle design... The flip top would be nice! There simply isn't a way around wasting product and mixing well with a polish of this thickness.

Did you try rewetting the clumps with additional product, then wiping?

I believe so, but can't remember the results... which means they were likely negative. I'll try this with my next round of detailing today just to see the results. Still, the holy grail here is a minimal pass WOWO procedure, and rewetting will take time.

Sounds like you may have used too much product. I had the exact opposite when I used PBL CP it was the easiest thing I ever used. You need very little on the pad run the polisher on a relatively low speed and just a few passes are needed. I think it may be a combination of too much product and speed. Let us in more on your process with the CP specifically.

I agree, it does sound that way, and that was my initial guess as well!

I literally used a drop about 3 to 5 mm in diameter to prime the pad and for the initial passes, and still got the same results. Generally a PITA to remove.

Perhaps you should post your location. It's possible you have a member right around the block that could help you with this.

Good call! I'd love some help. I'm in Gastonia, NC, which is just outside of Charlotte, NC. Not exactly the detailing mecca of the world... but with the rich racing heritage in the area, I'd say there is an above average love for all things automotive.

You used to much. But, you probably used a lot to prime/wet your pad. The trick is to prime the pad with DI water in a spray bottle (polish is water based) then use a few drops of product on the pad. If you do this it will wipe off quite easily.

I'll try priming the pad with the DI water spray first and see what happens!

Also, how much product do you recommend reapplying between sections?

I did try spraying DI water directly on the panel after application to aid in the removal (all of the panel, not just the clumped spots), which helped, but then of course, you're working wet... which uses-up more decent towels than I have available =(.

I with the majority as far as too much product, or maybe the product got too hot and baked on (similar to compounds). In that case, cooler area, cooler pads, slower speed and less pressure would be the key

Yes, it definitely got worse when using the cheap DA (with a micro bonnet). I noticed it overheated after only 4 passes as well... so I toned it down to two, but still got some overheating... so I went to hand application after those first two tries.

As far as my general method that did produce the best results (with some stubborn product left).
I used a 3mm to 5mm drop (imagine a sphere here) on a microfiber pad (not the best quality micro, maybe not even split fiber), then rubbed the product into an approximately 1 to 1.5 sq. ft. area with two total passes. Then, I immediately removed with a supreme shine MF, which left some residue behind... then followed this with the Wolfgang Concours MF, Wolfgang Concours-Series Microfiber Towel, german towel. Still took some elbow grease with the wolfgang.

So things I think I'll try today:
-Priming the applicator pad with Dist. water
-Using as little product as possible
-Using just the wolfgang MF alone in removal

Also, I just washed and dried the wolfgangs alone, with wolfgang MF detergent, which will hopefully minimize the stray microfiber lint.

I'll try to get some additional details on everything that I do this time around and get back on the forums late tonight. Thanks for the feedback everyone!


Also, as a side note, how well does the BL surface coating hide scratches, if at all? I'm trying to minimize the time spent on correction... and the depth removed from my new car's clear coat... as I unfortunately picked up a few RIDS somewhere over the last 3 months or in detailing this week. =(

Why is it that everything seems to go so much smoother on paper? Lol.

 

[custmsprty]

I'm not a fan of coatings because I do enjoy the detailing process, that being said, if I were to use one I'd be sure to go through the correction process first. I've had great one step results with Menzerna FG400 with an orange pad. Zero marring as you can see below. This truck was in bad shape and a one step with FG400 was amazing. I did this beast in just a little over 7 hours.

 

[cardaddy]

Yep, sounds like a tad too much product. I'd also say not to use a long nap/deep pile towel to remove it.

That aside, we literally HATE using PBL surface cleanser!!!!!!!!!!!!

Your results are not some sort of anomaly, far from it. We end up (when we actually use it) having one person applying it (by hand) and another RIGHT BEHIND removing it. Let it sit for more than a few seconds (especially if it's more than the mid 70's) and it's a friggin' bear to remove. If it doesn't remove easily, put more on, wipe off immediately!

Duragloss Squeaky Clean is lots, LOTS LOTS easier!

You would also be well served to either get a bottle of Eraser, or do a mix of Meguiar's D114 and 20%~25% alcohol solution and make your own "panel wipe". Sure, you can also do your own <20% alcohol solution but BE AWARE that it'll not have ANY lubricity! Which means you need NEW NICE microfiber towels to do your panel wipes with.

Mostly though, the problem you're having is a combination of too much product and too long being left on the surface. If you put it on with one hand and take if off with the other, literally wax on wax off you'll be much happier. :dblthumb2:

 

[dad07]

alltho I haven't used the PBL surface cleaner......it's not rocket science.......I agree with the majority of the guys here with using to much product.......BUT I will add that, while reading thru your description that you are using a cheap da....then you said you do not have a variable speed da.......then read something about microfiber bonnets.

What kind of machine are using?

What kind of pads are you using?

What size pads are you using?

Why do you not want to do the correction steps ( proper prep) before using the coating?

I don't live that far from you.....I'm in Monroe.......with a ton of products and machines that if you need can use here at my shop.

 

[Rsurfer]

Yep, sounds like a tad too much product. I'd also say not to use a long nap/deep pile towel to remove it.



:iagree: Get a edgeless short nap towel to remove. You can use a longer nap towel for a final buff. Change towels frequently.

 

[Ike21]

alltho I haven't used the PBL surface cleaner......it's not rocket science.......I agree with the majority of the guys here with using to much product.......BUT I will add that, while reading thru your description that you are using a cheap da....then you said you do not have a variable speed da.......then read something about microfiber bonnets.

What kind of machine are using?

What kind of pads are you using?

What size pads are you using?

Why do you not want to do the correction steps ( proper prep) before using the coating?

I don't live that far from you.....I'm in Monroe.......with a ton of products and machines that if you need can use here at my shop.

Thanks for the offer Tim! And sorry about the confusing posts... I was pretty tired and frustrated when I wrote these.

To answer some of your questions:
I ended up using Meg's UP all around, and got perfectly acceptable results. I'm happy with it.
The main problem I was facing in correction were loads of ultra fine deep scratches (from a long and sad series of events that were out of my control). I didn't want to compound them out, as they were at least 50% if not 75% through the clear coat layer. Even though I'm applying a coating, I'd rather keep the clear thicker, as the car is virtually new. Plus, I could always go back and compound everything if the scratches were offensive.
Through polishing, the scratch edges seemed to feather, and visibility was dramatically reduced. Now, you wouldn't even know they were there unless you used an intense light source to view the panel.

I experimented with suggestions here, and found that the best hand-applied method was to use an extra large foam (brick) applicator, primed with a spray of dist. water, and with about 9 1/8" flattened "dots" of product, distributed onto the pad then rubbed in with a gloved finger. After the first 2 sq. ft. section, a very light spray of dist. water and 3 additional dots seemed to do the trick.
I invested in 4 short/med nap "wax removal" micros on BOGO, which worked wonders. Had two towels ready: one folded on short nap side for removal, and the other on medium nap for a buff. That, with 2 extra cobra 530's took care of things

Procedure was:
-prime pad per above
-quickly spread excess product down center of panel with one wipe
-do a quick crosshatch of swirls (2 total section passes)
-lightly spray panel with dist. water (just misting even the center of the work area from 24" or more was enough)
-immediately remove with short nap using one (2 if over applied) section wipe passes
-buff with medium nap for 1 section pass
-use clean portion of towel for next section
-alternate/flip towel naps after all 4 folds are used

Had no noticeable residue remaining after inspection... and this was confirmed with using the procedure on head/tail lamps as well.

Now, this may not have been the wisest move... but I was still concerned with residual product remaining on the surface. Plus, a few stray fingerprints made it onto the paint in removal, as I was working bare handed (I've since found a great way to wear nitrile gloves without dripping sweat onto the paint). I ended up doing a light 10% IPA wipedown with clean 530's before coating. Perhaps it caused some micro-marring, or worst case, introduced some of the residual chemical left behind in the microfiber even with thorough washing... but I haven't noticed anything negative at all. I guess only time will tell on the coating's durability.

 

[fightnews]

Wow! Gorgeous results! I hope I can eventually get to something similar, but it won't be nearly as awesome as with that nice black color.

As far as the bottle design... The flip top would be nice! There simply isn't a way around wasting product and mixing well with a polish of this thickness.



I believe so, but can't remember the results... which means they were likely negative. I'll try this with my next round of detailing today just to see the results. Still, the holy grail here is a minimal pass WOWO procedure, and rewetting will take time.



I agree, it does sound that way, and that was my initial guess as well!

I literally used a drop about 3 to 5 mm in diameter to prime the pad and for the initial passes, and still got the same results. Generally a PITA to remove.



Good call! I'd love some help. I'm in Gastonia, NC, which is just outside of Charlotte, NC. Not exactly the detailing mecca of the world... but with the rich racing heritage in the area, I'd say there is an above average love for all things automotive.



I'll try priming the pad with the DI water spray first and see what happens!

Also, how much product do you recommend reapplying between sections?

I did try spraying DI water directly on the panel after application to aid in the removal (all of the panel, not just the clumped spots), which helped, but then of course, you're working wet... which uses-up more decent towels than I have available =(.



Yes, it definitely got worse when using the cheap DA (with a micro bonnet). I noticed it overheated after only 4 passes as well... so I toned it down to two, but still got some overheating... so I went to hand application after those first two tries.

As far as my general method that did produce the best results (with some stubborn product left).
I used a 3mm to 5mm drop (imagine a sphere here) on a microfiber pad (not the best quality micro, maybe not even split fiber), then rubbed the product into an approximately 1 to 1.5 sq. ft. area with two total passes. Then, I immediately removed with a supreme shine MF, which left some residue behind... then followed this with the Wolfgang Concours MF, Wolfgang Concours-Series Microfiber Towel, german towel. Still took some elbow grease with the wolfgang.

So things I think I'll try today:
-Priming the applicator pad with Dist. water
-Using as little product as possible
-Using just the wolfgang MF alone in removal

Also, I just washed and dried the wolfgangs alone, with wolfgang MF detergent, which will hopefully minimize the stray microfiber lint.

I'll try to get some additional details on everything that I do this time around and get back on the forums late tonight. Thanks for the feedback everyone!


Also, as a side note, how well does the BL surface coating hide scratches, if at all? I'm trying to minimize the time spent on correction... and the depth removed from my new car's clear coat... as I unfortunately picked up a few RIDS somewhere over the last 3 months or in detailing this week. =(

Why is it that everything seems to go so much smoother on paper? Lol.

You could of just gotten a bad batch or a bottle that wasn't stored properly. I don't like how every just assumes 100% that you're doing something wrong. Ridiculous, you shouldn't need to be Mike Phillips to figure out how to use the polish. With all the different ways you tried I would bet there has to be something wrong with your bottle of the polish.

Anyway, I'm using this product today for the first time. How big of an area should you do at once? A door? Half a door? 2x2 section? Is it supposed to be wipe on wipe off with no hazing time? The directions aren't that clear.

 

[fightnews]

I'm not a fan of coatings because I do enjoy the detailing process, that being said, if I were to use one I'd be sure to go through the correction process first. I've had great one step results with Menzerna FG400 with an orange pad. Zero marring as you can see below. This truck was in bad shape and a one step with FG400 was amazing. I did this beast in just a little over 7 hours.

wow, that really brought the color back.

 

[fightnews]

You could of just gotten a bad batch or a bottle that wasn't stored properly. I don't like how every just assumes 100% that you're doing something wrong. Ridiculous, you shouldn't need to be Mike Phillips to figure out how to use the polish. With all the different ways you tried I would bet there has to be something wrong with your bottle of the polish.

Anyway, I'm using this product today for the first time. How big of an area should you do at once? A door? Half a door? 2x2 section? Is it supposed to be wipe on wipe off with no hazing time? The directions aren't that clear.

Wow how funny and ironic I found this post, I used this stuff back in june with no problems. Polish sat in garage all summer. Went to use yesterday, major problems.

Best I could tell the polish separated. it was turning into this white powder even applying by hand. I have a high powered light and the powder was causing major swirls wiping it off. I did 4 panels before realizing it was the polish.

Re polished then used n914 as a panel wipe problem solved but wow. I think maybe because its a water based polish maybe the emulsification broke? Just a theory IDK if its even emulsified nut it goes to show you can not always assume people are doing something wrong with a given problem.