Why isn't everyone using coatings if it is "better" than sealants?

[WillSports3]

I wouldn't say that's true necessarily. I pamper my car quite frankly, I just like the look of a coating and the fact that I don't have to worry about re-doing the LSP mid-winter, that's the main winner for me. It also for me makes life easier in the sense that nothing really sticks onto it. I keep a bottle of UWW in my car and bird bombs as well as bugs from the highway come right off, no need to worry about whether or not they'll etch since I have a few days with the coating on my paint.

 

[TTQ B4U]

All I wanna know is: Do these coatings protect the paint from bonded contaminants for this so called 2+ yr. stretch of "protection"? If they do then I'll begin to show some interest.. If not that get the heck outta here with that crap. No excuses such as "oh but the contaminants are bonded to the coating not your paint" I don't wanna hear no lame excuses.

I could very well be wrong, and that's just an assumption based on lots of claims with holes in the fine print nowadays.. But if the coatings really do protect, then we can talk turkey.

Two plus years I doubt it. Unless the car was well cared for during that time. I had a coating done early on but ended up removing it to further correct and get my daily driver just perfect. For the last year or so sealants and LSP's worked but I ended up going back to a coating (McKee's 37) as it finally represents what I consider to be a more than fair price for what it offers. I was not about to go back to paying $150 for 15ml of product.

In terms of effectiveness so far, it's deliverying on what I've been looking for and that is a surface that is so level and smooth that water and dirt roll right off. My S4 got caught in a cloud of dust and dirt today thanks to a landscaper but when I got home, I litterally blew it completely clean with a leaf blower My nieghbor across the street saw me then walked over and I showed him how it was now dust-free and he laughed.

 

[SirTanon]

Coating smoating... I will stick with sealants and waxes. I have seen customer vehicles that have had "coatings" put on from the dealer that costed them over $1K and after one winter here in Wisconsin it was peppered with iron deposits (orange spots) all over their paint.... These "coatings" were suppose to prevent contaminants from bonding.

What you're talking about.. those are not true coatings.. they are what the dealer CALLS "coating" but they're far from it. At best, they are VERY expensive sealants that come with a "warranty".. They can't hold a candle to a true coating like Cquartz or Opti-Coat.

 

[TTQ B4U]

Mckees coating has to be the easiest coating to apply and it's affordable to all.

^^ this. super easy to use and really amps up the candy appearance on nicely polished paint.

Example 1

Example 2

https://youtu.be/Y7_gJjuGjq8 makes drying easier too



I have four packages I offer people. 2 and 3 offer McKee's as my coating option for an up-charge. Package 4 includes it. I have yet to not sell the upgrade once they see my cars.

 

[AutowerxDetailing]

Re: Why isn't everyone using coatings if it is "better" than sealants?

1 more thing that I'd like to say since the topic of the swirls are on the coating and not the paint came up earlier in the thread...

I coated our loaner car about 3 years ago with a variety of coatings (GlassCoat, CQ, CQUK, CQFinest) for some long term durability testing. I washed the car every few weeks and even drove it through a car wash a few times (for science!) and was very pleased with the longevity of the entire CarPro line. GlassCoat failed beading after about a year but the other products maintained the hydrophobic properties and glossy shine that you'd expect from a premium ceramic coating for several years. Over the years I did a few Iron-X baths and even clayed the hood when some overspray got on it (which did not affect the coating's performance). Every once in a while I topped everything with Reload but not for every wash. The bottom line: the coatings did their job. The car was protected for several years without needing to frequently clay or polish the finish to maintain a high-gloss shine.

As for swirls building up in the coating or the underlying paint:
I just polished out our loaner car with Essence and a foam pad and quickly took out 95% of marring and swirls with about two passes. Removed 3 years of swirl marks in about 1.5 hours. The amount of time spent polishing probably only removed about 0.5 - 1.5μm of material which is consistent with the thickness of the ceramic layers that were installed 3 years prior. This leads me to believe that the mfg. claims like "CQuartz can prevent 50% of light wash marring" are completely true because the ceramic layer really can absorb most of the light "damage" that can happen even with proper two-bucket washes.

Even if your car isn't coated if you care for it correctly your finish will look better than average for several years. If you want your daily driver to look 100% perfect every day you are going to be spending a lot of time maintaining that finish. If you lay down some sort of ceramic coating you'll be able to maintain a "nearly perfect" finish for a long time without slaving over the paint with clay or polish or wax every other weekend. That's the whole appeal. Most people are busy and like having a shiny car but don't want to spend 4 hours every other week washing, claying, polishing, waxing, etc. to maintain a high-gloss finish.

 

[Eldorado2k]

Why isn't everyone using coatings if it is "better" than sealants?

I coated our loaner car about 3 years ago with a variety of coatings (GlassCoat, CQ, CQUK, CQFinest) for some long term durability testing. I washed the car every few weeks and even drove it through a car wash a few times (for science!) and was very pleased with the longevity of the entire CarPro line. GlassCoat failed beading after about a year but the other products maintained the hydrophobic properties and glossy shine that you'd expect from a premium ceramic coating for several years. Over the years I did a few Iron-X baths and even clayed the hood when some overspray got on it (which did not affect the coating's performance). Every once in a while I topped everything with Reload but not for every wash. The bottom line: the coatings did their job. The car was protected for several years without needing to frequently clay or polish the finish to maintain a high-gloss shine.

As for swirls building up in the coating or the underlying paint:
I just polished out our loaner car with Essence and a foam pad and quickly took out 95% of marring and swirls with about two passes. Removed 3 years of swirl marks in about 1.5 hours. The amount of time spent polishing probably only removed about 0.5 - 1.5μm of material which is consistent with the thickness of the ceramic layers that were installed 3 years prior. This leads me to believe that the mfg. claims like "CQuartz can prevent 50% of light wash marring" are completely true because the ceramic layer really can absorb most of the light "damage" that can happen even with proper two-bucket washes.

Even if your car isn't coated if you care for it correctly your finish will look better than average for several years. If you want your daily driver to look 100% perfect every day you are going to be spending a lot of time maintaining that finish. If you lay down some sort of ceramic coating you'll be able to maintain a "nearly perfect" finish for a long time without slaving over the paint with clay or polish or wax every other weekend. That's the whole appeal. Most people are busy and like having a shiny car but don't want to spend 4 hours every other week washing, claying, polishing, waxing, etc. to maintain a high-gloss finish.

Ok I see, you make some good points..
Question: So as far as you being able to tell whether the coating is still on your paint after lets say 1.5 yrs. What do you depend on in order to know it's still on there or working? Do you base it on beading? [I don't expect this to be the correct answer] The smoothness of the surface, visual inspection, or is the only real solid way to know it's really still on there a paint thickness gauge? Based on what you just said I assume this is it?

So you begin the process by taking readings.. Then take readings once the coating is done being applied and see a noticable difference and make your notes and go from there? Have you ever seen a vehicle that's lived out the coating and came back with paint readings same as before and simply shed the coating over time?
I know these are probably stupid questions but I haven't started on this so that's why I'm asking.

 

[dlc95]

Aw crap..... THAT was what I wanted to order tonight.... Duragloss EnviroShield....

Not for me, but to offer to customers.

So far M21, and DG111 take care of my needs.

 

[AutowerxDetailing]

Re: Why isn't everyone using coatings if it is "better" than sealants?

Ok I see, you make some good points..
Question: So as far as you being able to tell whether the coating is still on your paint after lets say 1.5 yrs. What do you depend on in order to know it's still on there or working? Do you base it on beading? [I don't expect this to be the correct answer] The smoothness of the surface, visual inspection, or is the only real solid way to know it's really still on there a paint thickness gauge? Based on what you just said I assume this is it?

So you begin the process by taking readings.. Then take readings once the coating is done being applied and see a noticable difference and make your notes and go from there? Have you ever seen a vehicle that's lived out the coating and came back with paint readings same as before and simply shed the coating over time?
I know these are probably stupid questions but I haven't started on this so that's why I'm asking.

Ways that I can tell if the vehicle is still protected with a ceramic coating:
- How easily the paint cleans up and how slick the surface feels during the wash. Dirt is released easily so the surface feels super slick during the wash and pretty much just one swipe of the wash media over each area of the car is all that is necessary. No heavy scrubbing involved.
- Hydrophobic properties... not just water beading but also how quickly water sheds off the surface (especially when using the flood to dry method).
- How easily tar wipes off of the surface, usually with just soap and water... no dedicated tar remover necessary.

Basically all of the things you look for to tell if a car is waxed or sealed, a coating will demonstrate these properties for several years.

A paint thickness gauge can't measure the difference between a coated surface and un-coated due to the irregularities of the overall paint system. The margin of error for even the $2000+ gauges that measure individual layers is within the realm of the advertised thickness of most consumer and pro-installed coatings so even if you could measure the exact dot of paint before and after installing a coating it probably wouldn't reliably register a difference in thickness.

 

[Eldorado2k]

Re: Why isn't everyone using coatings if it is "better" than sealants?

The amount of time spent polishing probably only removed about 0.5 - 1.5μm of material which is consistent with the thickness of the ceramic layers that were installed 3 years prior.

Ok when I read that^ I just about saw the light... I saw the light just like when Jake from the Blues Brothers saw the light for the very 1st time!
I thought "oh wow, so that's how it really works?? It's really based on that kind of precision"? Suddenly it started to make sense why you need to be somekind of certified installer... You damn near got me after I read that.^

Basically all of the things you look for to tell if a car is waxed or sealed, a coating will demonstrate these properties for several years.

A paint thickness gauge can't measure the difference between a coated surface and un-coated due to the irregularities of the overall paint system. The margin of error for even the $2000+ gauges that measure individual layers is within the realm of the advertised thickness of most consumer and pro-installed coatings so even if you could measure the exact dot of paint before and after installing a coating it probably wouldn't reliably register a difference in thickness.

But this reality that you came back and hit me with.... Pretty much lost me. Wow I thought it could never be the actual reply.. That's why I even said I didn't expect water beading to even really matter when a true pro can pull out an electronic device and get some real professional precision going on in front of a customer or whoever.. Man that's pretty deflating.

I'm back to square 1. Coating shmoating. No offense to to you of course, Nicholas. I appreciate you answering my questions and I'm sure you get great results with what you use.

 

[Octopiston]

I think the problem is that you seem to be looking for a product that is impervious. Thats like asking for a computer that will never become outdated.

IF they did market a product that was impervious to contaminants, the price point would be exceedingly high. There is no telling what the application process would be like.

 

[TTQ B4U]

@Eldorado2k

I would ask yourself what you're looking for the coating to do for you first and second. You seem to be looking for protection first, appearance second, ease of use third. Correct me where wrong if needed.

IMO I think McKee's is good for you to try. It's not so much about resisting and being Teflon to anything that touches it, as it will be for a while, but over time, it will where down and begin to lose it's perfectly hydrophobic surface as your wash media and life will be touching it and wearing it down unevenly. However, it will be more durable than most other LSP's and maintain a nicer appearance than most too.

I'm using my wife's van as the test for me longer term as it has two coats on it and that's all it's getting until spring. Should be a tough 6mos too. I'm okay with that as I am confident that it will work well. If come mid-winter it's failing I will likely notice it and take action.

The great thing about McKee's is the cost and ease of use. If come mid winter I think it needs another coat and isn't performing, I can simply use a fine nanosponge on the paint, little IPA and then coat again. No different than using something like Optiseal or putting another coat of Collinite, etc on it.

In the end, I think you'll be happy. Prep is everything. Just polish your vehicle up so it's corrected to the level you want, then wipe on and buff off any high spots. I hit each panel with a little Uber WW Sprayed on and buffed dry and it really really popped the gloss level up a notch or two. More so on my Audi with it's pure black than on my wife's van. Her van though does show the blue flake mettalic very nicely in the sun now, though. More so IMO than with just a sealnt.

 

[emmjay]

@Eldorado2k

I would ask yourself what you're looking for the coating to do for you first and second. You seem to be looking for protection first, appearance second, ease of use third. Correct me where wrong if needed.

IMO I think McKee's is good for you to try. It's not so much about resisting and being Teflon to anything that touches it, as it will be for a while, but over time, it will where down and begin to lose it's perfectly hydrophobic surface as your wash media and life will be touching it and wearing it down unevenly. However, it will be more durable than most other LSP's and maintain a nicer appearance than most too.

I'm using my wife's van as the test for me longer term as it has two coats on it and that's all it's getting until spring. Should be a tough 6mos too. I'm okay with that as I am confident that it will work well. If come mid-winter it's failing I will likely notice it and take action.

The great thing about McKee's is the cost and ease of use. If come mid winter I think it needs another coat and isn't performing, I can simply use a fine nanosponge on the paint, little IPA and then coat again. No different than using something like Optiseal or putting another coat of Collinite, etc on it.

In the end, I think you'll be happy. Prep is everything. Just polish your vehicle up so it's corrected to the level you want, then wipe on and buff off any high spots. I hit each panel with a little Uber WW Sprayed on and buffed dry and it really really popped the gloss level up a notch or two. More so on my Audi with it's pure black than on my wife's van. Her van though does show the blue flake mettalic very nicely in the sun now, though. More so IMO than with just a sealnt.

Are you saying Mckees is layerable? I was told by PBMG that both Uber and PBL v2 will reject another layer of the coating once cured.

 

[TTQ B4U]

Are you saying Mckees is layerable? I was told by PBMG that both Uber and PBL v2 will reject another layer of the coating once cured.

Not sure what the official word is but I've put two coats on both my cars and had no issues. I did my Audi 1 week apart the van 1 month apart. Not sure it was "necessary" but it made me feel good knowing I helped make sure no spots were missed.

 

[emmjay]

Not sure what the official word is but I've put two coats on both my cars and had no issues. I did my Audi 1 week apart the van 1 month apart. Not sure it was "necessary" but it made me feel good knowing I helped make sure no spots were missed.

Ahh alright. Thanks for the clarification!

 

[Eldorado2k]

I think the problem is that you seem to be looking for a product that is impervious. Thats like asking for a computer that will never become outdated.

IF they did market a product that was impervious to contaminants, the price point would be exceedingly high. There is no telling what the application process would be like.

Well think about it, the coating is supposedly impervious to swirls and scratches... [I'll include scratches as most people can easily be lead to believe that]
Impervious to swirls is a pretty bold statement. I'd say that's a far bolder claim than simply protecting from bonded contaminants, wouldn't you agree? If given a choice I'd let them have their swirl protection x2 for just protection from bonded contaminants x1. Because I'm not gonna swirl my paint up anyways.

I also think of it like this: Lets say you apply your solid choice of sealant after you've prepped the paint.. How confident would you be that in 1 weeks time you can come back after a bucket wash and baggie test it and it'll still feel smooth as glass. Sounds about right? Why? Because the layer of protection is still working.

Now same should apply to a coating, should it not? So unless they've re defined the meaning of protection, then what's up? I say that if a coating allows contaminants to bond within it's stated claims of its longevity, then it pretty much lost its claim of protection the moment it began to allow the surface to get rough. Or does a person have to realistically keep in mind that in just 1 weeks time, under worst possible conditions* he may just need to clay the same car he coated just 1 week ago? If the answer is "no way",I ask why not? I'm thinking the reply would be, "well you just applied the coating 7 days ago, of course it's going to protect for more than a measly 7 days."
But try and hold it to it's bold statement of 2yrs or whatever and suddenly I'm asking for the world.... Protection is protection. They should put an askterik on their definition of paint protection. Especially in 2016. How could we not expect more from it?

 

[Eldorado2k]

@pdqgp. To be honest, I'm not even lumping in the McKee's coating with my argument here. I don't even know how much it costs, but I'm assuming it's lesser cost and almost a different breed than the upper level stuff? I've got no beef with it but I think it's characteristics, cost, user friendliness, etc. brings it closer to the quality sealants than it does higher up along the top shelf coatings? I'm not bashing it at all, I would think it's better than most sealants [unless of course the paint is in need of claying within just 3 months, if that's the case then I have no interest in it. But based on what you said it seems like it's working for you]

However that question about whether it's layerable is a huge question. I'm not even nitpicking, there's alot of tedious stuff to have to deal with with these coatings. All the stuff mentioned in this thread is a slight turnoff. There's also some pros/+ But the cons/- don't seem to be worth it for me, personally.

For you they work great and that's cool.. By the way, when you said you applied your coating and you're looking forward to it lasting till spring: Will you be washing it under the same schedule you normally wash your car in the summer time? Or does your car sort of hibernate when it comes to weekly washes and looking near perfect everyday like today for example.

Reason I ask is because you have to keep in mind the weather is always sunny out here, so it can get really confusing when we hear coat it and we'll see how it did come springtime. Does that mean hibernation? Because that would totally change how we both use any product due to all the different variables due to weather. A solid layer of good protection can last till spring, yes. But would it last till spring if you bucket washed it every 7 days and never applied any toppers or drying aids to what you did? Still the same come springtime? Or does washing the car every 7 days between now and spring change everything?

Sorry for the long post. Lol

 

[emmjay]

I have personally gotten 8 months out of one application of Menzerna Powerlock. I would use D156 as a drying aid every week after my wash. At 8 months, I just wanted to clay, polish and coat and at that point it was still beading and sheeting like mad. This is the middle east so my car needing claying, being parked of a main street that sees close to 300,000 cars a day minimum kicking up dust, tar etc. INEVITABLE. No coating is gonna be protected from that.

I have recently applied 845 on my mom's Audi, and it has claims of up to 1 year....$18.99 - I have done a full car and barely dented the bottle. Mckee's might be cheap at $35 or whatever it costs. It still won't coat my car 30 - 40 times like a bottle of sealant will.

$18.99 and to be fair, lets say 25 applications. That's $0.75 per application. For the sake of argument, I will seal the car twice a year. That's $1.50 per year for a bloody good sealant...

I feel like I wasted close to $450 with Uber and PBL....$450 I could have put towards a ibrid nano or a Rupes to compliment my flex.

Okay, the paint is slick with Uber...it was slick with Powerlock, SUPER SLICK in fact.

I doubt I will be coating my car again. For a hobbyist, $450 is just way to much (I am counting shipping and logistics to UAE) and $450 + the useless prep products (PBL especially). I seriously wasted close to $650 on those two coating applications. Not to mention I have one very expensive bottle of PBL Booster, that people have said has pretty bad results, and 32oz mini gallon of PBL Detailer. These supposedly boost the coating and return its properties. Umm, hello? I just applied a coating to NOT do that in the first place....yeesh Many brands have these toppers and boosters so I am not hotting on PBMG, just at the idea of these products + their boosters.

I will live with it till I can't take it anymore and can't stand the smudges and high spots. I will rip the coating off the car. Apply 845 and top with Fuzion. I'd probably get 1 year out of it with proper care and maintenance and that is goooooood enough for me.

My personal opinion, having used 2 coatings a week ago. Probably never again, as much as I want to try better coatings out there (22ple). I probably won't.

Got a full bottle of 845, 3/4 bottle of Powerlock (the massive one), Fuzion and Souveran. 4 bloody awesome products, that I paid for equalling the cost of 1 measly, leaky syringe of Uber. Go figure...

This guy hit the spot with these descriptions:

1 - "Coatings are scary and I don't want to risk misapplying it and screwing up the finish, or at least wasting the $$$ I spent on the product."

2 - "Coatings are too expensive and I don't think they can deliver what they say"

3 - "I really enjoy waxing my car. If I use a coating, then I won't be doing that any more. Plus, I have this big bottle of 'xxxx brand' that I need to finish using first"

I meet all of the above and agree with all of the above.

1. I found it scary and was not relaxing to me, which is what I want when working on my car. The stress of coating outweighs everything else I did.

2. U know how much I spent...Rupes ibrid Kit + spare pads + spare change money

3. Ditto.

Peace out.

EDIT: Don't get me wrong. Coatings are probably awesome. But until the ease of use and cost aren't reduced. They are not going to be awesome. Yes water runs off, it sheets nicely, might protect a little bit from marring (not swirls), but If you have soft paint to start with, its not going to help. I have to clay my car once a year no matter what, my surroundings call for it. At that point I am back to square one. I have to polish off the marring from clay....You see why its difficult for some. PBL is supposed to wipe off like a sealant and blah blah. Umm...no. It was nothing like that. Dried in seconds. Don't blame my weather or surroundings. I was going by the marketing. PBL and UBER are great products - if you follow instructions, have a good environment, cool weather etc. That applies to any coating for that matter. I have only used to 2 above so cannot comment on others. This makes it a very very limiting factor and doesn't allow everyone to reap its benefits.

I tried coatings, I like the idea of it, but I am not sold on it. Its back to loving my car. I don't want strings attached and the added baggage of coatings. Me spending time with the car is to get away from those very situations.

 

[CC268]

Wow this thread really took off! Interesting reading...

 

[emmjay]

Wow this thread really took off! Interesting reading...

Ive been reading it all day in bits and bobs at work.

This is why I love forums like this - you not only learn but have proper conversations and understand the rationale behind so many things, products, applications and mostly people.

 

[CC268]

Ive been reading it all day in bits and bobs at work.

This is why I love forums like this - you not only learn but have proper conversations and understand the rationale behind so many things, products, applications and mostly people.

Same here been reading at work here and there.