Coating WITHOUT Correction??

[GSKR]

Do you know that when you polish a car the finish looks glossier? So if your answer is yes, give me an example when a new car doesn't need a quick polishing step prior to protection? Because they all benefit from it. Why would it take you an extra 5 hours to do a finishing polish step? It doesn't make any sense. 5 hours? You guys should ask Mike Phillips if he ever does what you guys are doing and not polish a car prior to protection.

A lot of new cars are disaster and need correction.

If the car has transport sheeting wrap more than likely you can coat it.

This whole discussion is about a jag owner who deosnt want to pay for polishing

I'm out.


:dunno:

 

[TTQ B4U]

You guys should ask Mike Phillips if he ever does what you guys are doing and not polish a car prior to protection.

Quote Originally Posted by Mike Phillips
I don't ever try to tell people how to run their business, but instead just try to offer some balance to the conversation because as a detailer, one of their goals is to make a profit and multiple step buff jobs take more time and if your customer doesn't know the difference between a swirl and a squirrel then just make their paint clean and shiny and move forward.

http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum.../23142-difference-between-swirl-squirrel.html

I agree with Mike in the above. What we want isn't what's necesarily important. At the begining and end of it all, what we offer is great but it has create a value proposition for the owner of the vehicle. Some like many I service, just want a fully cleaned car that beads water. Said car will still shine and while it may benefit from a quick hit with a cleaner wax or a light polish followed by a sealant sometimes they just don't want to pay for the addtional costs.

That said, I chose to create an offering that matches what they are asking for. $135 gets them a very strong wash and wheel cleaning, chemical decontamination, nano decontamination, wipedown of all doors sills/trunk and a coating of Collinite 476. On an average familiy sedan like a Ford Fusion this might take me 2-2.5hrs. That works for both me and the customer. I have two coming up this week. Both are also bringing me another vehicle that will yield more too. That's why I do it. Their referrals and further business come to me not just because I do a good job and produce the results (give them the clean shiny car) they are looking for but becuase I listen to them.

 

[tdekany]

Do you know that when you polish a car the finish looks glossier? So if your answer is yes, give me an example when a new car doesn't need a quick polishing step prior to protection? Because they all benefit from it. Why would it take you an extra 5 hours to do a finishing polish step? It doesn't make any sense. 5 hours? You guys should ask Mike Phillips if he ever does what you guys are doing and not polish a car prior to protection.[/QUOTE A lot of new cars are disaster and need correction.If the car has transport sheeting wrap more than likely you can coat it.This whole discussion is about a jag owner who deosnt want to pay for polishing I'm out.

Yes you can coat it without polishing, but you shouldn't. Have you actually polished a brand new car that you thought it was ready for a coating? If you haven't, try it one day. Than come back and post a picture of the pad for all to see and let's see if the pad is dirty after polishing the car or did the pad remain clean.
Don't you want to have pride in the work that you turn over? Why should we feel ashamed on AG for promoting doing things the right way?

 

[tdekany]

I agree with Mike in the above. What we want isn't what's necesarily important. At the begining and end of it all, what we offer is great but it has create a value proposition for the owner of the vehicle. Some like many I service, just want a fully cleaned car that beads water. Said car will still shine and while it may benefit from a quick hit with a cleaner wax or a light polish followed by a sealant sometimes they just don't want to pay for the addtional costs.

That said, I chose to create an offering that matches what they are asking for. $135 gets them a very strong wash and wheel cleaning, chemical decontamination, nano decontamination, wipedown of all doors sills/trunk and a coating of Collinite 476. On an average familiy sedan like a Ford Fusion this might take me 2-2.5hrs. That works for both me and the customer. I have two coming up this week. Both are also bringing me another vehicle that will yield more too. That's why I do it. Their referrals and further business come to me not just because I do a good job and produce the results (give them the clean shiny car) they are looking for but becuase I listen to them.

Mike's words: """make it clean and shiny""" - somehow somewhere there is a polishing step involved in that process, wouldn't you say?

 

[Mike lambert]

I listen to my customers all the time, but when you explain the correct process and why, people who want the car done correctly understand. As far as turning down money, you need to do whatever is right for you. I prefer to maintain an impeccable reputation for high quality work with no compromise. My clientele understand that and the information is passed on to the people they refer. Must be doing something right as 95% of our work is coatings and we're booking February,5-6 days a week?

 

[shadwell]

Just use essence on the car after a full wash and decomtamination and inspection to prep the surface for coating and include that in part of the works cost..
Surface in decent nick very good chance of coating perfroming correctly..
Also you have the oppurtunity to note any scratches HSE ASKED NOT TO HAVE CORRECTED and record them, so if she moans later you can confirm, "Yess thats what you asked for"..
Done..

 

[TTQ B4U]

Do you know that when you polish a car the finish looks glossier? So if your answer is yes, give me an example when a new car doesn't need a quick polishing step prior to protection? Because they all benefit from it. Why would it take you an extra 5 hours to do a finishing polish step? It doesn't make any sense. 5 hours? You guys should ask Mike Phillips if he ever does what you guys are doing and not polish a car prior to protection.

Mike's words: """make it clean and shiny""" - somehow somewhere there is a polishing step involved in that process, wouldn't you say?

Depends on the condition. Mind you, I'm not condoning applying a "coating" without polishing as I stand by the fact that for a coating to properly adhere the paint needs polished and prepped beyond what just a two-step decontamination will provide.

Condition wise, I say it depends on condition as a number of newer vehicles will still look clean and shiny even after 2 years of nothing but washes. Of course they can and will shine more if even a light polish is applied, but there stands whether a customer sees value in that. I give them value and match up what they are looking for in terms of results and coin they are willing to spend.

Here's an older pick from a few years back. 4 month old car with 6k on the ODO. No polishing, just a strong clean up and waxed.

 

[MTCarNut]

So dealers are scam artists, charging coating prices and giving their customers a wax job instead?

Not all, obviously.

I worked at several dealerships when I was training to be a mechanic. I know for a fact that they sold "paint protection" packages that were presented to the customer as being coatings "good for 5 years". They were nothing more than a wax or sealant applied by the new car prep guys. I saw it with my own eyes.

The only point I was trying to make is that 99% of new car buyers could care less as long as their paint is nice and shiny. Many won't see the need or value in polishing a brand new car, and will balk at paying extra for it.

 

[shadwell]

.380.00 for a couple hrs is making money.Coating a car that needs definite polish is where you draw the line with the customer and just tell them the coating won't work polish needed.I look for simplicity and use my experience knowledge on every car to keep it simple and most importantly make the customer happy.

Yep... and think of the margin if something as simple as McKee's 37 cosaing was used.. no more effort than aplpying any other sealant.. a relatively cheap product, and functionally in the eyes of the owner who didn't want polishing before coating unlikely to be dicernable..

Win Win...

Will this create the best possible finish? no, but thats not what the customer asked for.. GSKR.. IMO you're correct for commercial works..
For my personal work, well that's not commercia, so every possible step is done, but the 2 are totally different.....

Cheers

 

[tdekany]

I'm pretty sure the customer wants a glossy finish. You are providing a DETAILING service. If you are giving the minimum to your clients, there is no reason to come to you. The hack down the street can provide the same services for less.

I can't believe that some of you are admitting to providing sub standard work on a DETAILING forum like AG. There is absolutely no exuse to skip polishing the paint. Unless you are doing a simple wash.

 

[tdekany]

Depends on the condition. Mind you, I'm not condoning applying a "coating" without polishing as I stand by the fact that for a coating to properly adhere the paint needs polished and prepped beyond what just a two-step decontamination will provide.

Condition wise, I say it depends on condition as a number of newer vehicles will still look clean and shiny even after 2 years of nothing but washes. Of course they can and will shine more if even a light polish is applied, but there stands whether a customer sees value in that. I give them value and match up what they are looking for in terms of results and coin they are willing to spend.

Here's an older pick from a few years back. 4 month old car with 6k on the ODO. No polishing, just a strong clean up and waxed.

Just imagine how much better it would look polished.

 

[TTQ B4U]

Just imagine how much better it would look polished.

only matters if the customer wants it and sees enough value to pay for it. again, the opinion you and I hold doesn't matter. they have to overcome their own objections and sometimes they just want a clean shiny vehicle with a coat of wax.

 

[tdekany]

only matters if the customer wants it and sees enough value to pay for it. again, the opinion you and I hold doesn't matter. they have to overcome their own objections and sometimes they just want a clean shiny vehicle with a coat of wax.

Prep is the key to a beautiful finish - do you not know that? This has nothing to do with the customer. A polished paint without protection will beat a just waxed finish. It is not only your job to educate the customer, as a Detailer, you are obligated to do the job right. There is no lsp out there at any price that doesn't perform better after a polishing step.
Most people think that "wax" is what makes paint shiny. If you are just taking advantage of their ignorance so that you can save 20 minutes by not doing at least a quick "once over" polishing step, if that is the case, you are 100% correct.

I don't know about you but I couldn't sleep well if I skipped a step on a customer's car that I would do on my own car. Especially something like a polishing step. It is the step that makes or breaks a detail.

 

[Rsurfer]

Prep is the key to a beautiful finish - do you not know that? This has nothing to do with the customer. A polished paint without protection will beat a just waxed finish. It is not only your job to educate the customer, as a Detailer, you are obligated to do the job right. There is no lsp out there at any price that doesn't perform better after a polishing step.
Most people think that "wax" is what makes paint shiny. If you are just taking advantage of their ignorance so that you can save 20 minutes by not doing at least a quick "once over" polishing step, if that is the case, you are 100% correct.

I don't know about you but I couldn't sleep well if I skipped a step on a customer's car that I would do on my own car. Especially something like polishing step. It is the step that makes or breaks a detail.More so for a coating.

rops:

 

[tdekany]

Every detail that I do gets Opti Coat (once in a while Gloss Coat).

 

[TTQ B4U]

It is not only your job to educate the customer, as a Detailer, you are obligated to do the job right.

There is no lsp out there at any price that doesn't perform better after a polishing step. Most people think that "wax" is what makes paint shiny. If you are just taking advantage of their ignorance so that you can save 20 minutes by not doing at least a quick "once over" polishing step, if that is the case, you are 100% correct.

This is auto detailing not legal work or the medical field (ironically I work in the medical field). I'm obligated to outline my offerings to the customer, listen to their needs and respond in such a way that I can meet or exceed those needs in a way that allows me to be profitable and allow them to go home realizing value in what they paid me to do. The reality is if you can polish an entire car in 20 minutes to make a noticable difference then you're a better man than me and I'll give you that.

My customers hear me explain the benefits you and I agree on. In the end not everyone wants that. There are customers that simply want a washed extremely cleaned car that will bead water and has a layer of protection on it offer the advantages of holding up agains the elements and their next roud of automated washes at the gas station.

I do this part time and like to keep 1-2 full details per week in my pocket. During the week after my regular day I can knock out the above in 2-2.5hrs and have them back in their car that same night. I've even had people (local) pay $20 for me to deliver it to them. Crazy, but I just did that this weekend and they sent me a referral that night! (another nieghbor).

I don't know about you but I couldn't sleep well if I skipped a step on a customer's car that I would do on my own car. Especially something like a polishing step. It is the step that makes or breaks a detail.

Everyone is different. I wouldn't sleep well at night if I kept turning away people vs making them my customer. 100% of my business is from various clubs, forums and word of mouth. Again, not my day job but a fun way to connect with people, provide a great service and make extra play money for time that I might normally be watching TV or something else. My son helped me this weekend and now at age 13 realizes in high school he might be able to make $50/hr doing what I do for fun. In a couple/few years I will take my customers and let him take over so he can start off with a book of business. He's VERY intrigued by that. Win win win in my book.

Back on topic though, no I wouldn't waste time nor a customers money by putting a coating on a car without polishing it. That's like putting a suite on to cut the grass.

 

[Octopiston]

Prep is the key to a beautiful finish - do you not know that? This has nothing to do with the customer. A polished paint without protection will beat a just waxed finish. It is not only your job to educate the customer, as a Detailer, you are obligated to do the job right. There is no lsp out there at any price that doesn't perform better after a polishing step.
Most people think that "wax" is what makes paint shiny. If you are just taking advantage of their ignorance so that you can save 20 minutes by not doing at least a quick "once over" polishing step, if that is the case, you are 100% correct.

I don't know about you but I couldn't sleep well if I skipped a step on a customer's car that I would do on my own car. Especially something like a polishing step. It is the step that makes or breaks a detail.

That is the problem right there. This is a service industry and it has EVERYTHING to do with the customer. It is absolutely 100% about the customer's perception of value added. You can't force what we see and our standards onto them. This stance reminds me of some gun forums. Someone wants a cheap plinker rifle and the gungho guys will blast anyone for Non-operator grade choices.

Its nice that you get all customers willing to spend the coin on a full correction and coating. Most of us don't work in that niche. My customers are not compliant about what I think they should pay me to do with THEIR car. If I had the stance of "I must polish or I won't put a lsp on your car." They would go down the road and I wouldn't get paid. Most of what I've seen is where I am the only time their car gets attention, and again they don't want to spend the money for a polish. Why? I'm honest. I'll straight up tell them it is pointless to pay the money and a waste of my time if they are going to drive through a car wash. Then you have the people that live on land and their vehicle gets driven around it and scratched by branches. I don't blame them. I did a sealant without polishing on a 6mo old car. I talked to her about the process and products. I even had my car right there and showed her the difference between a polished car and one that wasn't. In the end she knew she would let the dealership drive her car through their wash and opted not to spend the money. She also wanted the longer protection of a sealant compared to a wax so, thats what I used. I did another customer without polish. This was a high milage vehicle. I used BFMS on it. First thing out of her mouth, "It looks better than new." Her husband stood staring at it for 15 min and was amazed at how well it cleaned up. Its going on 5 mo, and I heard that her daughter drove it and wanted whatever I put on her mom's tahoe on her car. I made my customers happy and I know it exceeded their expectations from what has been said. If that makes me a hack in your eyes then so be it. You aren't a customer so your opinion means nothing in my transactions.

20 min to polish? I've done this enough to know that you aren't doing much if any correction at that rate, especially on the larger vehicles like I tend to see. Wouldn't a 20min polish be a rushed job? What about your obligation to do it right? Is a "quick once over" really doing it right in your eyes, or are you cutting corners there?

And yes, you can make a vehicle shine without polish. Most lsp's impart a shine of their own. Will it shine more polished? Yup, but is the customer paying for it, will they actually see the difference, and more importantly do they want it?
Do you go to local car shows? I frequent them. About 2/3 of the cars being shown have swirls. Going by the way you are carrying on they wouldn't shine, but they do. They also win! So what we see and want has little bearing on the vast majority of even car enthusiasts.
I even see cars going up for auction on Mecum with holograms.

 

[Paul A.]

An interesting discussion so far to say the least. How did your customer turn out, 98LowRanger?

 

[tdekany]

This is auto detailing not legal work or the medical field (ironically I work in the medical field). I'm obligated to outline my offerings to the customer, listen to their needs and respond in such a way that I can meet or exceed those needs in a way that allows me to be profitable and allow them to go home realizing value in what they paid me to do. The reality is if you can polish an entire car in 20 minutes to make a noticable difference then you're a better man than me and I'll give you that.

My customers hear me explain the benefits you and I agree on. In the end not everyone wants that. There are customers that simply want a washed extremely cleaned car that will bead water and has a layer of protection on it offer the advantages of holding up agains the elements and their next roud of automated washes at the gas station.

I do this part time and like to keep 1-2 full details per week in my pocket. During the week after my regular day I can knock out the above in 2-2.5hrs and have them back in their car that same night. I've even had people (local) pay $20 for me to deliver it to them. Crazy, but I just did that this weekend and they sent me a referral that night! (another nieghbor).



Everyone is different. I wouldn't sleep well at night if I kept turning away people vs making them my customer. 100% of my business is from various clubs, forums and word of mouth. Again, not my day job but a fun way to connect with people, provide a great service and make extra play money for time that I might normally be watching TV or something else. My son helped me this weekend and now at age 13 realizes in high school he might be able to make $50/hr doing what I do for fun. In a couple/few years I will take my customers and let him take over so he can start off with a book of business. He's VERY intrigued by that. Win win win in my book.

Back on topic though, no I wouldn't waste time nor a customers money by putting a coating on a car without polishing it. That's like putting a suite on to cut the grass.

I'm going to stop you right here. Are you telling your customers that their lsp is going to last after going through automated car washes? I'm sorry but you are not exceeding their expectations. In fact you are miss informing your customers.

And why are you going on about turning people away? Who said anything about that. All I'm trying to teach you is to not skip the one step that makes the biggest difference. When you go to the doctor - do you tell the doctor what steps to take to "fix" you up? This is silly. Without proper prep, the lsp is going to suffer no matter how you try to justify skipping polishing. And if you think that you can't polish a car in 20 minutes, take 30 or 40 minutes to do it. Again we are not correcting paint, we are polishing it. I'm going to suggest this again - do a spot and see how much dirt comes off by "abrading" the paint. I've been detailing professionally for 15 years, and that is 15 years doing it the right way and here you are telling me I'm wrong. Sorry but you should learn a little more about detailing. While you agree with me on not putting a coating on without polishing it first, what makes you think that a regular lsp doesn't need the same prep as a coating? It does. Your argument is as silly as the guy who insists that a sealant lasts equally long whether you do a wipe down after polishing the paint or not. Or the guy who claims that claying doesn't mar paint and you don't have to polish afterwards.

 

[TTQ B4U]

Are you telling your customers that their lsp is going to last after going through automated car washes?

Did you see me state that? Your questoin was answered before it was even asked.

And why are you going on about turning people away? Who said anything about that.

I said it because when I cover the process and a customer says no that it's not in alignment with what they want there's not much other than trying a second time and then saying you don't offer what they want is pretty much turning them away, regardless of your reasining.

All I'm trying to teach you is to not skip the one step that makes the biggest difference.

You're skills as a teacher a failing as you're not listening to what others are sharing with youi here.

When you go to the doctor - do you tell the doctor what steps to take to "fix" you up?

This isn't medicine it's auto detailing. When I go to get my oil changed, I don't expect them to put full synthetic and a K&N in my minivan just because it aligns with being what is best and what they insist on. The value proposition isn't there. Basic stuff regardless of the industry. In the optical field, not everyone needs to have an Opthomologist/MD bill them medically to do a refraction when an OD's office can do it for far less.

Without proper prep, the lsp is going to suffer no matter how you try to justify skipping polishing.

Then I suppose 99% of the consumer industry is worthless as the OTC goods don't all require a polishing step first. I think you're overthinking things just a bit.

And if you think that you can't polish a car in 20 minutes, take 30 or 40 minutes to do it.

Gladly but I don't do it for free. Again, back to the customers value statement.

I've been detailing professionally for 15 years, and that is 15 years doing it the right way and here you are telling me I'm wrong.

and I grew up in the auto industry with my family who owned 3 franchise dealerships (Olds, Caddy, GMC) with a Body Shop location offering basic prep to full detailing services. Not hear to debate resume's or my 30yrs+ working on cars at first as my job starting at age 15 but now as my hobby.

what makes you think that a regular lsp doesn't need the same prep as a coating? It does

LOL. I guess the entire industry is a hoax.