Flex 3401 vs. Rupes Mille/Makita P5000C, for those that are wondering.

I can wait, but I don't want to. :)

I am anticipating that the Mille will work well on gelcoat as a rotary alternative with the right pads; am I correct or am I still going to need/want a rotary for gelcoat correction?
 
I can wait, but I don't want to. :)

I am anticipating that the Mille will work well on gelcoat as a rotary alternative with the right pads; am I correct or am I still going to need/want a rotary for gelcoat correction?

Oxidation can be quite deep - as you remove the damaged paint it needs somewhere to go. This is why wool pads, with their increased surface area, can be so effective. RUPES will be launching specifically designed wool pads, tuned and balanced for the Mille, which should be the answer on those thickly oxidized gel coats.

As Visitor nicely pointed out, if current gear-driven polishers work, then the Mille should work even better! Gel-coat work, even with a gear-driven polisher can take time. With the Mille, and its carefully designed ergonomics and minimal steering, I have a feeling a lot of marine detailers and boat owners are going to be very grateful.

With all of the above said, nothing can produce the cutting power potential of a rotary polisher. It is able to develop a high amount of speed on the pad's edge which gives it the highest potential for cut. On some gel coats with really deep, really hard oxidation, you may still get the fastest initial cut by starting with a rotary polisher and a wool pad.
 
am I correct or am I still going to need/want a rotary for gelcoat correction?

Depends on how deep the oxidation is and your expectations for a "nice" finish.


I cover deep oxidation in my boat classes, the next class is February 10th and 11th, 2018 - The fastest and easiest way to remove deep oxidation is to machine sand and then compound with a wool pad on a rotary buffer.



I also cover this in my boat detailing how-to book. This is the most in-depth how-to book I've ever written due to how many tools there are on the market and also the wide spectrum of "conditions" boats can be in. Suffice to say, it's a lot more complex to "type" about than car detailing.


There a 6 pages to the index alone. Here's the third page,

Boat_Book_Index_003.jpg




I divided boat conditions into 4 categories,

Category #1 New or Like New
Category #2 Good Condition with Light Oxidation
Category #3 Mild Neglect
Category #4 Severely Oxidized and Neglected


Category #1 you're good to go with a free spinning orbital polisher. Any free spinning orbital polisher s long as you can maintain pad rotation and pad oscillation.

Category #2 you're good to go with any gear-driven orbital polisher or rotary buffer. Oxidation can be removed to a satisfactory level with a free spinning tool but it's going to take longer as compared to any gear-driven tool. Your time, you're money.

Category #3 - At this level of oxidation, the fastest way to and here's the key word, thoroughly remove deep oxidation is with a rotary buffer, wool pad and top notch compound. You can use a gear-driven orbital but it's going to take longer to get the same results you can achieve using a rotary with a wool pad.

Category #4 - At this level of deep oxidation the fastest and most effective way to thoroughly remove oxidation is to machine sand to a fresh base of gel-coat and then remove your sanding marks using a rotary buffer. You can skip sanding and only use a rotary buffer but >you< are going to PUSH hard for HOURS against a surface that declines or angels away from you, very tough to do for hours. The results will look splotchy unless you REALLY focus on working small areas and closely monitor your pad overlap not only for the section you're buffing but when moving to a new section.


At our boat detailing classes I bring in the WORST condition dark colored gel-coat boats and then show All of the above.


Heck, you can oxidation by hand if you want and I show how in my boat detailing book but what I also say in the chapter on removing oxidation on boats in category #3 on page 54 is this,

Mike Phillips said:
My guess is that anyone attempting to correct the finish on a boat in Category #3 by hand will get about an hour into the correction process before deciding to switch to a machine.


I didn't address how to remove deep oxidation by hand for boats in category #4 because I don't know if there's a human alive that could do an entire boat. BUT if someone wanted to the 4-step process I outline for boats in category # would also work for boats in category #4.


:)
 
For reference, here's a full write-up showing how to machine sand a boat in category #4 using RUPES 5" sanding discs...


How to wetsand, cut and buff a gel-coat boat

How_To_Wetsand_a_Gel_Coat_Boat_002.jpg


How_To_Wetsand_a_Gel_Coat_Boat_004.jpg



I don't know if RUPES still offers these exact sanding discs in the 5" size? I had a collection of these sanding discs after a number of RUPES classes at SEMA and MTE and ended up with enough to sand a couple of boat projects for classes here at Autogeek. They did work very well.


Rupes_Wetsanding_Discs_003.jpg



We did this project about 3 years ago. I think it's the only picture-documented boat wetsanding class on the Interweb...


How to wetsand, cut and buff a gel-coat boat


:)
 
Mike, your Marine detailing book and the Rupes Polisher books came this weekend! I got through a big chunk of both last night instead of watching Game of Thrones. :)

I am not opposed to using a rotary for bad cases, but looking to get away from a rotary unless its really needed.
 


the Flex 3401 has been tried and true for many years and has proven itself (very reliable German tool) to work in a variety of situations (it's been known to even detail Aircraft!). there is also a Flex service center here in the states in Omaha, NE (Powerhouse Distributing) that has been around since the beginning to service the tool if needed. they (Flex) also have a new mini DA coming out soon as well (pictured below to the right). they don't call the Flex 3401 the BEAST for nothing!

FB_IMG_1496274015637.jpg

https://www.flex-tools.com/en/products/polishers-2/
 
VISITOR, thanks for the tip. I just bought a set of Rupes DA's and I'm pretty impressed with their build quality. I also like the idea of sticking with their "system" so to speak. If I went another route it would probably be with Makita, as I have virtually all of their cordless tools and a slew of other Makita corded tools, and I have never ever been sorry I bought a Makita.

That said, I am also a big fan of German engineering, so maybe I will give the Flex tools a closer.
 
I FB messaged Todd Helme(I trust very much) of Rupes asking him....



d76ab94f4274f16e203f30aef7420fe7.jpg



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"Orbit size is not that important on a gear driven" Is that an odd statement. I thought the orbit is what prevents these da's from causing swirls. If orbit size wasn't important wouldn't we be using rotaries?
 
Where is the info on the Mille? Rupes has indeed made a forced rotation sander for years and National Detroit made a forced rotation polisher the ND9900 but it was an air tool.

I'm glad to hear the Makita is running the right, clockwise, direction in forced rotation mode. I will make it more comfortable for people who already run a rotary and help people who don't get familial with the feel.

Does anyone know how the action of the Rupes Mille compares with the Makita as far far as orbits per revolution and revolutions per minute?


Thanks

I thought it was wierd the first time i used my flex 3401 after only using the harbor frieght and the gg6. Now i like it
 
I thought it was wierd the first time i used my flex 3401 after only using the harbor frieght and the gg6. Now i like it

It turns out what I had heard was wrong, the Makita runs counter clockwise, like the Flex in forced rotation mode. It's easier to get used to if you put your right hand on top and left hand on the trigger - though that makes engaging the trigger lock a little trickier.

When it comes to orbit size, as Todd said, it's not that important in a forced rotation machine, it only has to be big enough not to introduce a swirl - anything after that is not only unnecessary, it's counter productive because it makes the machine less effective out on the edge because that area where there is only overlapping contact but not constant contact with the surface gets bigger.

As of this moment, the PO5000C is my tool of choice. I wish it spun the same direction as my rotary, grinder, cut off tool, drill, etc. but the action is as good as it gets - for now. My opinion of course, but I'd be happy to do the test, side by side if someone believes otherwise. Then, both our opinions would be better informed, no matter how it came out.

BTW, there is a cavity in the top hand grip of the Makita. I filled that cavity with lead shot and epoxy to dampen the vibration and it made the machine much smoother. (Don't tell Makita, they're still a bit touchy about our conversation regarding the direction of the spin.)

RSW
 
So for someone whose 'once in a while' side jobs are becoming more and more frequent....I like the idea of the rupes or boss 21 to cover more ground more quickly. I guess I see the benefit to a forced tool but had pretty much ruled out the flex.

For someone doing mostly production grade/ AIO kind of work and infrequent corrections, who also has a 3" machine....is there a benefit to going with the forced tool? I like makita, and it seems like the 6050 is the way to go over the 5000, and even the flex or the Mille. But I just don't know what the cutoff point is where you'd say 'ok yeah, a forced machine will serve me much better than a large stroke orbital'.


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....I like the idea of the rupes or boss 21 to cover more ground more quickly.

You wanna cover ground quickly, Flex 3401 fits the bill. Curves, flat, recessed body accent lines...just jam it in there and pad just keeps spinning and working.

Slap a 6.5 pad on there for hood/roof/trunk, 5.5 elsewhere and cover some ground quickly.
 
I would guess that Mille and Makita are onbar. I have Mille, it is allready released here in Finland. I am dissapointed, my 15-21 mk2 outcuts it and the new Rupes woolpad works far better on 15-21 than on Mille. Mille is miles ahead of 3401 though, its erconomig and torque is crazy. It also doesnt walk or vibrate like Flex. But i have Mini, duetto, 15 mk2 and 21 mk2 and rotary so in gonna sell my Mille, i just dont need it. If it would have lived up to its hyoe and beated 21 or even 15, then i would keep it. Switching backing plate on Mille is also pita and big minus.
 
I would guess that Mille and Makita are onbar. I have Mille, it is allready released here in Finland. I am dissapointed, my 15-21 mk2 outcuts it and the new Rupes woolpad works far better on 15-21 than on Mille. Mille is miles ahead of 3401 though, its erconomig and torque is crazy. It also doesnt walk or vibrate like Flex. But i have Mini, duetto, 15 mk2 and 21 mk2 and rotary so in gonna sell my Mille, i just dont need it. If it would have lived up to its hyoe and beated 21 or even 15, then i would keep it. Switching backing plate on Mille is also pita and big minus.
Yeah i think RPM is most important than OPM and stroke for forced oscillation which makes me believe the Makita will be on top of the other two
 
So for someone whose 'once in a while' side jobs are becoming more and more frequent....I like the idea of the rupes or boss 21 to cover more ground more quickly. I guess I see the benefit to a forced tool but had pretty much ruled out the flex.

For someone doing mostly production grade/ AIO kind of work and infrequent corrections, who also has a 3" machine....is there a benefit to going with the forced tool? I like makita, and it seems like the 6050 is the way to go over the 5000, and even the flex or the Mille. But I just don't know what the cutoff point is where you'd say 'ok yeah, a forced machine will serve me much better than a large stroke orbital'.


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Po5000C and adams swirl killer mini or substitute adams mini for the GG6 with HD 3in griot plate
 
So for someone whose 'once in a while' side jobs are becoming more and more frequent....I like the idea of the rupes or boss 21 to cover more ground more quickly. I guess I see the benefit to a forced tool but had pretty much ruled out the flex.

For someone doing mostly production grade/ AIO kind of work and infrequent corrections, who also has a 3" machine....is there a benefit to going with the forced tool? I like makita, and it seems like the 6050 is the way to go over the 5000, and even the flex or the Mille. But I just don't know what the cutoff point is where you'd say 'ok yeah, a forced machine will serve me much better than a large stroke orbital'.


Sent from my iPhone using AGOnline

Po5000C and adams swirl killer mini or substitute adams mini for the GG6 with HD 3in griot plate
 
Po5000C and adams swirl killer mini or substitute adams mini for the GG6 with HD 3in griot plate

Doesn't really answer the question...I've already got a gg3 and an mt300, trying to understand the tipping point where you'd go from say a g21 or rupes 21 to a forced machine like flex or makita. Is it simply preference or do the separate categories fill separate roles?


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The major determinant is the cars you work on, or more specifically, how much curvature the cars you work on have. The more curved the body panels, the more likely you are to see pad stalling on free rotation DAs. In that case, despite the longer stroke of the 15mm-21mm models (from any company), their ability to continue to rotate the pad decreases severely. This is where the forced rotation polishers (again, from any company) will actually be faster than the long stroke free spinning DAs. If you are, for example, polishing a 1970s slab sided Cadillac, you will probably do very well with a long stroke DA. If you are polishing out a Porshe 911, or an old VW Beetle, then the forced rotation DA will probably be faster, as it will keep the pad spinning.

It is possible to polish even the 911/VW Beetle with a free rotation DA, but you need to be so careful with the amount of pressure you are applying, and so cognizant of the pad spin, that it can make the polishing process a real ordeal, and it will take a long time to do it.

On a vehicle with flat surfaces, the long stroke DAs will polish faster, due to their larger area of coverage. The forced roation DAs will also not have a problem with the flat surfaces, it will take longer due to the shorter stroke of the current crop of forced rotation DAs (stroke is 8mm for Flex XC3401, 5.5mm for Makita PO5000C and Rupes Mille).

Note that modern cars are tending more and more towards curved surfaces, the exception being some pickup trucks and SUVs.
 
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