PBMG and overlapping products....

[WRAPT C5Z06]

Wolfgang, Pinnacle and BLACKFIRE are ALL owned by PBMG. Each brand has a glass cleaner, carpet/upholstery cleaner, engine degreaser, compound, polish, sealant, microfiber cleaner, sealant, interior cleaner, tire dressing, paint prep spray, coating, rinseless wash..........you get my point. One may easily come to the conclusion that SOME of these products might be re-labeled. Every single product has a different chemistry? I mean, they are all owned by the same company. This really sways me away from a lot of PMBG products, unless there’s only 1 type of product for all of the brands. BLACKFIRE One Step for example, great product!


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[Setec Astronomy]

I think that's painting things with too broad a brush. People have made the same criticisms of Meguiar's with their multiple overlapping lines (Mirror Glaze, Detailer, multiple consumer lines) and there are very few of those that are "the same". Blackfire is a fairly recent addition to the PBMG family, in comparison to Wolfgang and Pinnacle. I personally doubt that many, if any, of the products are identical between lines. I don't follow things as closely as I used to, but certainly there were clear differences between many of the products such as the polishes.

Also you have to remember that Pinnacle was a shared brand between PBMA and CMA, and then they had their individual "German Sealant lines", Wolfgang and Blackfire. Of course later all three got lumped together in PBMG. As with any brand, there are some products that stand out more than others, nobody says you have to like every product from a brand. As you noted, there's some great products in there, I personally really like the Wolfgang exterior and interior trim sealants. IMO no reason to be put off because they own 3 brands that overlap...heck, the AG store sells dozens of brands that overlap.

 

[acuRAS82]

I agree with Setec. I can also add that the polishes are similarly really good.

The Blackfire, Wolfgang and PBL sealants are all awesome but very different (Wolfgang water based, Blackfire slightly solvent based and PBL resin based, all with different looks and longevity).

The waxes all apply similarly pleasant, but are mostly different, although Fuzion and Midnight Sun May be similar. BlackIce, Souveran and Synergy are totally unique to anything else. Sig Series II is maybe similar to Mckees Trademark but not the same.

For most the other products, I have only tried 1 from any of the given brands and they have all been very good.

The spray waxes and QDs I have a gallon of each and they all differ in similar ways as the LSPs listed above, given they each use their own type of polymers to supplement those LSPs.

Even if there is similarities in the other formulas between brands (I can’t confirm that’s the case), I wouldn’t shy away for that reason, because they all do their jobs well, so just pick one if you desire, maybe not a good reason to sample more than one brand in case of redundancy.

 

[Setec Astronomy]

Even if there is similarities in the other formulas between brands (I can’t confirm that’s the case), I wouldn’t shy away for that reason, because they all do their jobs well, so just pick one if you desire, maybe not a good reason to sample more than one brand in case of redundancy.

It's hard to find a bad product these days.

 

[WRAPT C5Z06]

If one comes out with a glass cleaner, engine degreaser, carpet cleaner......I mean, how different can they be? They're most likely being mixed at the same location.

 

[RippyD]

Agree with WRAPT. Sealants and polishes I believe could be different. Cleaners... not sure how much difference there could be.

 

[Eldorado2k]

I don’t think it’s basically the same products with just a different label among the 3 brands. Reason I say this is simply based on the fact [based on what they said, and I have no reason to doubt] that they recently gave the Blackfire brand a makeover and proudly boasted about alot of the products being new and improved versions.

It would be wrong on so many levels for them to not follow through on that. It’d be lazy on their part, and insulting to their customers. If that were to actually be the case it wouldn’t take very long for honest opinions calling them out on such a cheap tactics to appear on this forum.

While I do somewhat agree that there’s only so many ways you can make a great glass cleaner, I still don’t think they’d be bold or lazy or insulting to their knowledgeable customers to try and actually pull it.

 

[Setec Astronomy]

If one comes out with a glass cleaner, engine degreaser, carpet cleaner......I mean, how different can they be? They're most likely being mixed at the same location.

Using that logic, you could apply that to all the brands sold here and argue that how can each line have a cleaner, how different can they be, and most likely some of them are mixed at the same location. No one is asking you to try or like every brand in the store, no one is asking you to like or try every brand of PBMG's. Also, why didn't you pull M37 into this; that used to be a PBMG brand. I'm not arguing with your basic premise, of how different can two IPA-based glass cleaners be, but you could also stand in the supermarket cleaning products aisle and complain as to why there are so many brands of cleaning supplies, and they must overlap, and isn't the store brand likely made by one of the other brands, etc. etc.

While I do somewhat agree that there’s only so many ways you can make a great glass cleaner, I still don’t think they’d be bold or lazy or insulting to their knowledgeable customers to try and actually pull it.

Just to play devil's advocate, how could you tell if they did that? You could put the same stuff in a different bottle, give it a different smell, give it a completely different sales blurb and some slightly different instructions, and voila, different product.

ANYWAY--

Mark, this whole thing just seems a cheap shot at PBMG, these kinds of arguments have been made about many companies, even one of the forum favorites years ago admitted when confronted that "there are only so many suppliers of base materials". You're an educated consumer and you have access to a whole forum full of member reviews to help you sort things out. Find something you like and use it often.

 

[WRAPT C5Z06]

Using that logic, you could apply that to all the brands sold here and argue that how can each line have a cleaner, how different can they be, and most likely some of them are mixed at the same location. No one is asking you to try or like every brand in the store, no one is asking you to like or try every brand of PBMG's. Also, why didn't you pull M37 into this; that used to be a PBMG brand. I'm not arguing with your basic premise, of how different can two IPA-based glass cleaners be, but you could also stand in the supermarket cleaning products aisle and complain as to why there are so many brands of cleaning supplies, and they must overlap, and isn't the store brand likely made by one of the other brands, etc. etc.


Mark, this whole thing just seems a cheap shot at PBMG

Definitely not a cheap shot, it's how I really feel. I did not include McKee's 37, as they are their own company now. Of course there may be other companies that use the same mixing
location or supplier, but most likely different recipes. My point is, it's very redundant for the *same* company to put out 3 glass cleaners, 3 engine degreasers, 3 APC's, 3 carpet cleaners. One may argue that Wolfgang, Pinnacle and Blackfire(currently) are different companies; nope, just different names. Some may not know PBMG owns all three lines. In that case, it shifts the whole perspective as "unique" products. They still may or may not be. It would not be logical for me to think all 3 PBMG carpet cleaners may be very similar, if not the same? Meguiars has a Detailer line X-press wax and a consumer line UQW. Different name, same product, but they do not claim they are different.

 

[Setec Astronomy]

It would not be logical for me to think all 3 PBMG carpet cleaners may be very similar, if not the same?

It would also be logical to think that ALL carpet cleaners may be very similar, if not the same, so you pays your money and takes your choice.

I understand that it would be easy to assume that because the 3 brands you mention are all owned by PBMG they are "the same", but it would also be just as easy to conclude that they have made conscious choices to differentiate them, including sourcing them differently. Is the glass half empty, or is it half full?

 

[swanicyouth]

Vote with your dollars.

The PBMG products are all very good - and I don't care if they are relabeled. The thing is, some of them are crazy expensive. Pinnacles new glass cleaner is like $20 for 16oz. I'm sure it's quite good - but for me - when I need glass cleaner - I'll buy one like Megs Detailers - which is around $25 and makes 11 GALLONS.

Stuff like carpet cleaner - I'm using Folex. It's excellent. Clean an engine - an APC that you can dilute like Grime Reaper. 32 oz is like a dollar.

Polishes, LSPs, & similar are worth it. Cleaners? There are significantly better deals out there that work awesome.

 

[WRAPT C5Z06]

It would also be logical to think that ALL carpet cleaners may be very similar, if not the same.

Nope. If I go into a supermarket and look in the carpet cleaner aisle, I can read the ingredients on each product. Some will contain OXY, some will not. This makes them completely different.

I'd much rather take my chance that shine supply carpet cleaner is a lot different than 3 PBMG carpet cleaners. It just makes more sense.

 

[FUNX650]

•This subject matter comes up every so often.

•The following is a posting by an AGO forum
member that, IMO, addresses it quite elegantly.

{Not only am I in agreement with his premise,
it has also become one of my favorite ”Rhyme
and Reason” assessments.}

***************************************
”This is one of those situations where
no one can ever prove which is the
better product.

It is a balancing game to offer SO MANY
products and put them in some kind of
quality order.

Such is the job of an experienced retailer...”

~RTexasF

******************************************


Bob

 

[Setec Astronomy]

Vote with your dollars. The PBMG products are all very good - and I don't care if they are relabeled. The thing is, some of them are crazy expensive.

Yeah, they HAVE gotten really expensive. At one time the house brands were priced a notch below the other premium brands...now they are priced a notch ABOVE. I mentioned earlier in this thread that I like WETS...I was fortunate to buy a big bottle of it when it first came out and they had it on sale...now I'm not even sure if I would have tried it, at the current pricing. Fortunately, it goes a long way, to paraphrase a video I saw on the forum earlier, I think I've spilled more than I've used (unfortunate cap design).

 

[swanicyouth]

It would also be logical to think that ALL carpet cleaners may be very similar, if not the same, so you pays your money and takes your choice.

I understand that it would be easy to assume that because the 3 brands you mention are all owned by PBMG they are "the same", but it would also be just as easy to conclude that they have made conscious choices to differentiate them, including sourcing them differently. Is the glass half empty, or is it half full?

On that note, I don’t mind paying if the stuff makes the job significantly easier, faster, or provides better results. But,
You have to think - any cleaner you buy in a RTU form - what you are likely paying for is 90%+ water.

A lot of the copy is just says “this is the best cleaner”.. blah blah blah. But can you tell me why it’s better than the bottle of RTU Duragloss glass cleaner that’s like $8? Or the Optimum Glass Cleaner w/ rain repellant that’s $10?

 

[Setec Astronomy]

Or the Optimum Glass Cleaner w/ rain repellant that’s $10?

Wow, I didn't realize that stuff had gotten that cheap, or did they stop selling the concentrate and dropped the price on the RTU? I may have to buy another bottle at that price.

 

[RippyD]

I'm losing what the point of this is. PBMG and any other companies can label anything how they want and charge whatever they want for it. Our job is to decide if it's worth the extra cost. If you don't think $30 glass cleaner is any better than $5 glass cleaner, don't buy it. There's nothing to complain about.

For decades GM sold essentially the same car as a Chevy, Buick, Oldsmobile and whatever else at different prices. People bought the one the liked and in many cases they were practically the same car. It's called branding.

I have no idea what the difference is between a similar Blackfire and Wolfgang product. There's a ton of product info in these forums. Do some research and see what others have to say, or buy it, try it, and tell us. If you don't like it trade it or give it away. There's an active trading thread here that lets you swap products with others.

PBMG's job is to sell stuff and make money. Our job is to buy the stuff that works best for us at a price we're comfortable with.

Short story: I work at large company. Many years ago during an employee Q&A with the CEO somebody asked a question about why we don't just keep prices flat when we come out with new and better products. The CEO looked at him puzzled for a few seconds and responded "We're in business to make money." So is every other for-profit business.

 

[swanicyouth]

I'm losing what the point of this is. PBMG and any other companies can label anything how they want and charge whatever they want for it. Our job is to decide if it's worth the extra cost. If you don't think $30 glass cleaner is any better than $5 glass cleaner, don't buy it. There's nothing to complain about.

For decades GM sold essentially the same car as a Chevy, Buick, Oldsmobile and whatever else at different prices. People bought the one the liked and in many cases they were practically the same car. It's called branding.

I have no idea what the difference is between a similar Blackfire and Wolfgang product. There's a ton of product info in these forums. Do some research and see what others have to say, or buy it, try it, and tell us. If you don't like it trade it or give it away. There's an active trading thread here that lets you swap products with others.

PBMG's job is to sell stuff and make money. Our job is to buy the stuff that works best for us at a price we're comfortable with.

Short story: I work at large company. Many years ago during an employee Q&A with the CEO somebody asked a question about why we don't just keep prices flat when we come out with new and better products. The CEO looked at him puzzled for a few seconds and responded "We're in business to make money." So is every other for-profit business.

Absolutely. They should sell it for as much as they can get for it. I’ve said the same thing many times. I’m 100% with you there. Magic LSPs that sell for $1000 - I’m all for it.

I don’t think anyone is complaining, we are just voicing our opinion and why we choose to buy what we choose to buy - or not choose to buy.

You mention branding & use GM as an example. I think that’s where some of the confusion comes in. Usually in branding - there is some clear cut stratification or target market for the different lines. With old school GM Chevy was the entry level truck line & Cadillac top of the line luxury.

What some of us are getting at is there seems to be little explanation or common sense understanding between the differences of some or these products - and if one even does exist. There’s a lot of price overlap & similar claims.

So, as I said - vote with your dollars.

 

[Dr Oldz]

I always thought:

Pinnacle = Natural ingredients
Wolfgang = German polymers and Technology
BF = now pro detailer oriented what whatever works good.

I do find differences in most PBMG products but the end result usually works out well.

 

[acuRAS82]

One thing to note regarding the price of PBMG, their gallon sizes are generally well priced, when compared to other high end companies’ gallons. I buy quite a few of them for products I like a lot (spray waxes, QDs, tire gel, paint prep). Not as affordable as Meg’s Detailer lines obviously, but for “specialty products”, i.e. non-basic cleaners, they end up a pretty good value at that size.