Sio2 topper over polymer-based sealant

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Sumdown

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Preface: I put CarPro Elixir over the existing (3-months and going strong) Ultimate Fast Finish base the other day. I used it like a quick detailer, as advertised.

So, as you can see from the above, I did the unthinkable. It turned out there was some strange reaction, and the Elixir actually burned through the hood and engine, in the shape of a pentagram. Just kidding! My car looks glossy af. Obviously, no idea about durability yet, and it won't rain for a while so I won't be able to see the water properties for a few days.

In many forums, Ive read implicit and explicit advice that Sio2 products go on coatings only (via. Guz's excellent review of EliXir here, where a couple of times he explicitly mentions it's for coated cars), and you should put polymer products on polymer (that is, I should have put Beadmaker over FF, not EliXir). But I`ve never seen it explained why. My google-fu is merely yellow sash level, but have not found an explanation, just the advice, repeated in many threads, that Sio2 products should go on coatings only. I couldn`t find any explanation as to the science (e.g., the Sio2 will eat through the polymer, the Sio2 won`t bond to the FastFinish so will just wash off first rain, etc). I couldn`t even find any bad anecdotal stories. I found several other anecdotes around EliXir specifically, which people put on traditional sealants, with all positive results. CarPro specifically advertises EliXir as being for coated or uncoated cars.

I`d appreciate any pointers, links to threads, first-hand anecdotes, or scientific or informal explanations as to why I might have made a terrible mistake (if in fact, I did). Very much appreciate any help!

Frank
 
I used SIO2 over Duragloss, Turtle Wax Express, and Mothers wax and no problem. Ive also used spray wax over S1O2 no problems . After all S1O2 is a form of silicone.
 
Sumdown said:
Agree, it's pretty diluted. So what if it weren't? What negative effect would higher levels of Sio2 have on my fast finish?
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It may not bond so would be wiping off most of the sio2? Even if it did bond. Most sio2 coating last longer but would probably only last as UFF. Would be wasting money. You could probably top the other way around.

If you like UFF why not just top with another coat instead of trying to mix?


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Sumdown said:
Preface: I put CarPro Elixir over the existing (3-months and going strong) Ultimate Fast Finish base the other day. I used it like a quick detailer, as advertised.

So, as you can see from the above, I did the unthinkable. It turned out there was some strange reaction, and the Elixir actually burned through the hood and engine, in the shape of a pentagram. Just kidding! My car looks glossy af. Obviously, no idea about durability yet, and it won't rain for a while so I won't be able to see the water properties for a few days.

In many forums, Ive read implicit and explicit advice that Sio2 products go on coatings only (via. Guz's excellent review of EliXir here, where a couple of times he explicitly mentions it's for coated cars), and you should put polymer products on polymer (that is, I should have put Beadmaker over FF, not EliXir). But I`ve never seen it explained why. My google-fu is merely yellow sash level, but have not found an explanation, just the advice, repeated in many threads, that Sio2 products should go on coatings only. I couldn`t find any explanation as to the science (e.g., the Sio2 will eat through the polymer, the Sio2 won`t bond to the FastFinish so will just wash off first rain, etc). I couldn`t even find any bad anecdotal stories. I found several other anecdotes around EliXir specifically, which people put on traditional sealants, with all positive results. CarPro specifically advertises EliXir as being for coated or uncoated cars.

I`d appreciate any pointers, links to threads, first-hand anecdotes, or scientific or informal explanations as to why I might have made a terrible mistake (if in fact, I did). Very much appreciate any help!

Frank
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i put reload over ultimate fast finish and it did not go on well. totally streaky and i really could not get it out maybe if i used a damp towel it could have. dont know. luckily i only did it on maybe a third of the hood and one fender. after that i told myself no more will i try that.
 
SiO2 is not a silicone. It is silicon dioxide.

You can do it whatever way you want to. If a SiO2 topper applies over a polymer sealant or hybrid wax without any issues like streaking then go right ahead. You are using it like a spray wax.
 
bolts said:
i put reload over ultimate fast finish and it did not go on well. totally streaky and i really could not get it out maybe if i used a damp towel it could have. dont know. luckily i only did it on maybe a third of the hood and one fender. after that i told myself no more will i try that.
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Interesting, really appreciate the real-life experience. EliXir has a very low concentration of Reload, and maybe that's why I had absolutely no streaking problems with EliXir. It went on and came off easily; as I said, it's glossy af and the finish seems flawless. I've read (full strength) Reload can be a challenge even in ideal conditions over a coating.
 
DBAILEY said:
SiO2 is not a silicone. It is silicon dioxide.

You can do it whatever way you want to. If a SiO2 topper applies over a polymer sealant or hybrid wax without any issues like streaking then go right ahead. You are using it like a spray wax.
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Exactly! CarPro actually sells Elixir as a quick detailer, and ech2o is actually sold as a waterless wash or QD. I think this is an important difference -- I use a spray wax on a clean just-washed dry or wet car, whereas EliXir should be usable on a not-just-washed, lightly dusty car (it's being sold as a QD, after all, and based off a waterless wash/QD product).
 
Coatingsarecrack said:
It may not bond so would be wiping off most of the sio2? Even if it did bond. Most sio2 coating last longer but would probably only last as UFF. Would be wasting money. You could probably top the other way around.

If you like UFF why not just top with another coat instead of trying to mix?
Click to expand...

Coatings: I think you're right that, in general, a coating should outlast a polymer sealant, usually. But that's not what we're talking about here. I definitely wouldn't drop, say, cquartz on top of UFF. But what I'm asking about is Sio2 topper type products. Or, in other words:

Ultimate Fast Finish: is a polymer-based sealant with very high durability (I re-apply every 6 months, but wouldn't be surprised if it lasts nearly a year), but only moderate glossiness and interesting but not extreme hydrophobic properties. Usually applied a freshly washed and completely clean car -- either directly to paint, or on top of another sealant.

EliXir: is an Sio2-based quick detailer, low durability (expect it to last a few weeks, from reviews) but with very high glossiness and high hydrophobic properties. As a QD, applicable to a not-just-washed, lightly dusty car.

So, to answer your question about topping UFF with another coat:
- No reason to ever do a 2nd coat of UFF, to me. First, durability-wise it's completely unnecessary. Also, reinforcing its unspectacular glossiness with more unspectacular glossiness wouldn't seem to get me anywhere. Plus, UFF is not a QD.

- If I'm going for a short-term sacrificial layer on top of the UFF, and/or need a QD, EliXir brings in perfectly complementary properties -- wonderful glossiness, high hydrophobic properties (which I haven't seen yet), etc. Obviously, as the point of this thread, there are polymer-based options as well
 
Sumdown said:
Coatings: I think you're right that, in general, a coating should outlast a polymer sealant, usually. But that's not what we're talking about here. I definitely wouldn't drop, say, cquartz on top of UFF. But what I'm asking about is Sio2 topper type products. Or, in other words:

Ultimate Fast Finish: is a polymer-based sealant with very high durability (I re-apply every 6 months, but wouldn't be surprised if it lasts nearly a year), but only moderate glossiness and interesting but not extreme hydrophobic properties. Usually applied a freshly washed and completely clean car -- either directly to paint, or on top of another sealant.

EliXir: is an Sio2-based quick detailer, low durability (expect it to last a few weeks, from reviews) but with very high glossiness and high hydrophobic properties. As a QD, applicable to a not-just-washed, lightly dusty car.

So, to answer your question about topping UFF with another coat:
- No reason to ever do a 2nd coat of UFF, to me. First, durability-wise it's completely unnecessary. Also, reinforcing its unspectacular glossiness with more unspectacular glossiness wouldn't seem to get me anywhere. Plus, UFF is not a QD.

- If I'm going for a short-term sacrificial layer on top of the UFF, and/or need a QD, EliXir brings in perfectly complementary properties -- wonderful glossiness, high hydrophobic properties (which I haven't seen yet), etc. Obviously, as the point of this thread, there are polymer-based options as well
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i really like uff. i put uff over powerlock but could not tell or see the difference. from my experience with reload and sio2, i will just use sio2 with ceramic coatings not with polymer or wax. i would assume you can do polymer over polymer and it would work.
 
Sumdown said:
have not found an explanation, just the advice, repeated in many threads, that Sio2 products should go on coatings only.
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Honestly, I can't recall having read that anywhere prior to this. Not on forums, and not on manufacturer labels. Then again, maybe we're visiting different forums or using different products.
 
I've read both threads and manufacturer advertising specifying use on coated products -- not usually in the form of "use on coatings only", but often in the form of "a sealant to be used on top of your coating".

For example, here are two quotes from The Guz's excellent review of EliXir right here on AGO:
And the answer is no to be strictly for CarPro coatings. Feel free to use it with any coating.

For those wanting a ready to use quick detailer for a ceramic coating then go ahead and pick this up.
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No, this is not "don't use this on uncoated cars". But that is definitely the implicit message -- even though the CarPro advertising that's quoted just above explicitly says it's for coated or uncoated cars. This is one of about a zillion similar style statements. Sometimes explicit, sometimes more implicit, "use this on coated cars".
 
IMO the "on coatings" use-case is explicitly pointed out on the labels, because as a general rule of thumb, you're not supposed to top a coating with any other stuff, as almost everything will just diminish the positive properties of the coating itself. So, this is more about refuting a false "conventional wisdom" and telling you that "works also well with/on coatings" than about implying by any means that an sio2 sealant should not be used on its own. Also experience shows that they generally work very well on their own, but of course with limited durability compared to coatings.
 
That's exactly what I was trying to get to with this thread -- a little clarity on whether my sio2-on-sealant was heresy or no biggie.
 
It's not really heresy, however it's not a big thing. Initially the addition of layers over paint was done to promote something called interlocking. In which both all layers lock on to the layer below it, Much like why are you rough up the surface of a metal before you paint it.For this they told you to stay within the same groups, curnuba over carnuba, polymer over polymer, SIO2 over si02...... Does this mean that mixing families will fail? No, but it does mean that if you stay within the families layers should interlock and be more durable than mixed families.

We need Mike Phillips to weigh in on this.
 
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