How many times can you buff?

[Mike PhillipsMike Phillips is verified member.]

? Sportscar still wants to know how many times it would take.

There's too many unknown factors for anyone with any wisdom to ever be able to give an accurate, factual answer let alone a definitive number.

Heck, just a few weeks ago we held a Detailing 101 class here for a Porsche club and after demonstrating how to use the PC style polisher 4-5 guy let me know they learned that they've been using their polisher for years but had been moving it over the surface too fast.

When trying to remove defects out of the paint you're in essences trying to remove a little paint. If you move a DA style polisher too quickly over the surface you are not effectively removing any paint, thus you won't be effectively removing the swirls.

The above is just one factor that relates the reason there cannot be a definitive answer, let a lone a general number as to,

How many times can you buff?

Mike didn't say that he has never seen anybody buff through the Clear Coat. He said "I've rarely encountered "enthusiast detailers" that have buffed so much that they've buffed through the clear layer and exposed the color coat layer".

To me the word rarely means it has happened and is still not definitive.

Correct. I've seen it, but it's pretty rare. From memory, it is something that is usually caused by someone trying to remove each and every scratch out of the hood so they buff and buff and buff. :buffing:


This is why I usually caution people to not try to turn a daily driver into show car, that is don't try to remove each and every scratch out of a car that's just going to get scratched again. Instead, remove all the shallow scratches and stop. This practice will restore a swirl free finish with only the RIDS remaining. This will help the paint job to last over the service life of the vehicle while still creating a beautiful finish.

RIDS = Random Isolated Deeper Scratches
RIDS show up after you do your initial buffing step where you remove the majority of the shallow scratches so now all that's left are the deeper scratches. These remaining deeper scratches are randomly dispersed throughout the finish because they are randomly inflicted into the paint through the normal course of day-in, day-out wear and tear. Because all the shallow scratches have been removed, the remaining deeper scratches now stand out like a sore thumb as it's easier for your eyes to now see them whereas before they were camouflaged by all the lighter swirls and scratches surrounding them.

(RIDS are completely different than Tracers in the way in which they are inflicted and the direction in which they're in the paint)

I think his answer was as loaded as the answers provided by the other experts and still did not give a specific # like the OP was looking for. To summarize; I don't think his answer was anymore definitive than the other experts. Just my opinion.

You're opinion is correct. My answer wasn't a definitive answer and was never meant to be a definitive answer because there is no definitive answer.

I'm not going to skip over to MOL and do search for how many times this question has been asked and then I've answered it much the same way as in my first reply to this thread and now in this long version. Suffice to say a lot.
(Note a lot is two words, not one word)


That is to say this is a very common question, usually by Newbies worried about buffing off too much paint. My answer was meant to remove not just the OP's fear but anyone that reads this into the future, both Lurkers and Forum Members alike. It's not the problem most newbies make it out to be especially if you're starting out with a car in which the paint has all of it's integrity.

By saying,

especially if you're starting out with a car in which the paint has all of it's integrity

What I mean by this is a car in which most, if not all the factory paint is still intact, or in other words, most or all the original factory paint is still on the car.

Now if someone has buffed on the car over aggressively before you the new owner obtains the car, and you the new owner don't know about the over aggressive buffing that's taken place, then chances are better you could burn through the clear coat but not because you removed too much paint buffing in normal ways, but because you started out with a car that didn't have a lot of paint to start with because of the actions of someone who previously worked on the car. In other words, the car had thin paint to start with, that is the car had thin paint before you the new owner worked on it.

Does that make sense?

So here's what I've been typing for years on this subject, let me turn int into a dedicated thread next week.



In most cases, the least of anyone's worries using a DA style polisher, is removing too much paint. If you read forums enough and specifically posts related to removing swirls, it's more likely you'll find examples of people asking for help because they're not getting the swirls out. What this means is they're not removing enough paint.

That's because the way you remove swirls is to remove a little paint to flatten out the surface so that the surface is level with the lowest depth of the deepest defects. Most people struggle with removing enough paint to remove swirls. The majority of people don't have the problem of removing too much paint and exposing the coating under the top coat.

At least that' my observations...


Does that help?

 

[sportscarhiatus]

To everyone that responded, thank you very much. I believe between christian, loudog, Rsurfer, and of course Mike... I think the for most part, my question was answered. I now even know how much paint my G actually has (thanks again for those #'s). Here's the facts I now know because of your answers:

1) Though vehicles vary in thickness of paint coming out of the factory, they vary from as thin as 80 microns to 300 microns depending on the vehicle itself.
2) AFTER performing the initial deep, correction buff, with proper washing/car techniques, only "maintenance" buffs 1-2 times a year using a light polish and white or gray pad is needed. And during these "maintenance" buffs, less than 3 microns are removed per session (again this is a ROUGH AVERAGE).
3) Even us enthusiast detailers...if all we remove are light surface scratches/swirls and not worry about removing RIDS, we can maintain a relatively swirl-free finish and NOT have to worry about eating through the clear coat during the lifetime of owning the vehicle. This is provided we observe and follow proper DA techniques.

I think that summarizes the last 4 pages. Am I right?

Thanks again to everyone who responded. What a great community of enthusiasts! I'll know what to tell the guys at work tomorrow in the lunch room!

 

[christian900se]

To everyone that responded, thank you very much. I believe between christian, loudog, Rsurfer, and of course Mike... I think the for most part, my question was answered. I now even know how much paint my G actually has (thanks again for those #'s). Here's the facts I now know because of your answers:

1) Though vehicles vary in thickness of paint coming out of the factory, they vary from as thin as 80 microns to 300 microns depending on the vehicle itself.
2) AFTER performing the initial deep, correction buff, with proper washing/car techniques, only "maintenance" buffs 1-2 times a year using a light polish and white or gray pad is needed. And during these "maintenance" buffs, less than 3 microns are removed per session (again this is a ROUGH AVERAGE).
3) Even us enthusiast detailers...if all we remove are light surface scratches/swirls and not worry about removing RIDS, we can maintain a relatively swirl-free finish and NOT have to worry about eating through the clear coat during the lifetime of owning the vehicle. This is provided we observe and follow proper DA techniques.

I think that summarizes the last 4 pages. Am I right?

Thanks again to everyone who responded. What a great community of enthusiasts! I'll know what to tell the guys at work tomorrow in the lunch room!

Thats pretty much right on!

1) Your car will probably average around 110-120 microns from a few more threads I looked at with similar obsidian black G35s so that may be a bit more accurate and helpful than 80-300 microns.

2) Thats all correct, but you will remove 1 micron or less with maintenence buffs. The original buff will remove around 3 or maybe a little bit more depending on the serverity of the defects and how soft the paint is.

3) If you remove the majority of the swirls and leave the RIDs, the car will be swirl free and will for all intents and purposes be perfect! When you buff the car, you will level the general swirls but you will also "round off" the edges of RIDS which makes them less noticeable without having to remove them. This is why you don't need to worry about specifically targeting the deeper defects.


Your summary is great, and DAs are extremely safe so you don't really need to worry at all.

 

[Mike PhillipsMike Phillips is verified member.]

For those following this thread, at this time I plan on posting a new article on wet-sanding factory paint, the part that ties in with this thread is I documented to the best of my ability and within reason, how much paint I removed after each of 5 steps in 3 different places.

It will be in the Wet-Sanding, Cutting & Buffing forum group and the title is,


Removing Sanding Marks with the Griot's ROP and the Wolfgang Twins

I think it will surprise most people. It's fairly D.O. with lots of pictures. I had it finished over a week ago but due to the timing of SEMA I didn't want to post it till after Team Autogeek returned so to be able to answer any questions that may arise.

 

[A4 1.8tqm]

I'll know what to tell the guys at work tomorrow in the lunch room!

:xyxthumbs::hungry:

 

[sportscarhiatus]

Thats pretty much right on!

1) Your car will probably average around 110-120 microns from a few more threads I looked at with similar obsidian black G35s so that may be a bit more accurate and helpful than 80-300 microns.

2) Thats all correct, but you will remove 1 micron or less with maintenence buffs. The original buff will remove around 3 or maybe a little bit more depending on the serverity of the defects and how soft the paint is.

3) If you remove the majority of the swirls and leave the RIDs, the car will be swirl free and will for all intents and purposes be perfect! When you buff the car, you will level the general swirls but you will also "round off" the edges of RIDS which makes them less noticeable without having to remove them. This is why you don't need to worry about specifically targeting the deeper defects.


Your summary is great, and DAs are extremely safe so you don't really need to worry at all.

One last question, for these 1-2 x a year "maintenance" buffs, I have PO87MC from Menzerna... is that sufficient? And if so, what pads do you recommend? white or gray?

 

[christian900se]

One last question, for these 1-2 x a year "maintenance" buffs, I have PO87MC from Menzerna... is that sufficient? And if so, what pads do you recommend? white or gray?

You should really need the grey pad if you have the rest of your car care procedures down pat. If that is not enough to remove the light marring you may get from regular washing/waxing, then you can step up to the white pad. But always start with the least aggressive method first, even if you have to step it up. I believe your paint should be relatively soft so I would expect the grey pad to work out fine.

 

[Mike PhillipsMike Phillips is verified member.]

One last question, for these 1-2 x a year "maintenance" buffs, I have PO87MC from Menzerna... is that sufficient?

This is where I would first do a "Test Spot", that is test a pad and product combo to a small area and check my results. If it looks good than chances are good it work over the rest of the car. If it's not working then I'll try a new combination and be glad I didn't use the first choice combination over the entire car without first testing.

 

[wantboost]

Would hand polishing remove any clear ? Or how about just polish or AIO with a da?

 

[rlmccarty2000]

Any type of polishing will remove clear if it is abrasive in nature. A chemical type polish with no abrasives is the only way I know of not removing clear. Klasse AOI does not have abrasives, most others do and they remove clear.

 

[Calendyr]

This is a very tricky question because no 2 cars have the same paint.

The factor to take into account are:
- hardness of the paint
- thickness of the clearcoat
- Aggressiveness of the machine used (Rotary/Forced Rotation/Long Throw DA/DA)
- Aggressiveness of the pad
- Aggressiveness of the polishing creme

So that is a lot of factors to consider but let me tell you this:
On many modern cars, the clear coat is so thin I would not compound it once. In the last 2 years, I have measured paint bellow 90 microns on many vehicles. My minimum paint thickness to do ANY compounding is 100 microns and I find that being very borderline crazy to do. When someone has paint thickness in the 100 range I recommend not to do a compound, and if they are bellow 100 I refuse to do it.

With that being said, compounding and polishing car remove as much as 10 microns, so depending on the original paint thickness, I would not do too many of those. I usually tell my clients that doing a paint correction should only be done once and afterwards it's a matter of protecting the paint as much as possible and preventing damage so that the paint doesn't degrade.

If you want to do polishing only, then I would say that you should not worry about it. It usually removes less than a micron, so even on thin paint it's not really an issue unless you decide polishing the paint every week would be a good idea

I hope some of what I wrote can be useful to you and help you make informed decisions on how to proceed in the future.

 

[Calendyr]

Would hand polishing remove any clear ? Or how about just polish or AIO with a da?

Hand polishing can be much more aggressive than machine polishing, so yes it can definitely remove clear and in many ways it is a lot more risky to do because you can put much more pressure on a spot than with a machine.

 

[fightnews]

Somewhere between 2 and 100 times

 

[fightnews]

This is a very tricky question because no 2 cars have the same paint.

The factor to take into account are:
- hardness of the paint
- thickness of the clearcoat
- Aggressiveness of the machine used (Rotary/Forced Rotation/Long Throw DA/DA)
- Aggressiveness of the pad
- Aggressiveness of the polishing creme

So that is a lot of factors to consider but let me tell you this:
On many modern cars, the clear coat is so thin I would not compound it once. In the last 2 years, I have measured paint bellow 90 microns on many vehicles. My minimum paint thickness to do ANY compounding is 100 microns and I find that being very borderline crazy to do. When someone has paint thickness in the 100 range I recommend not to do a compound, and if they are bellow 100 I refuse to do it.

With that being said, compounding and polishing car remove as much as 10 microns, so depending on the original paint thickness, I would not do too many of those. I usually tell my clients that doing a paint correction should only be done once and afterwards it's a matter of protecting the paint as much as possible and preventing damage so that the paint doesn't degrade.

If you want to do polishing only, then I would say that you should not worry about it. It usually removes less than a micron, so even on thin paint it's not really an issue unless you decide polishing the paint every week would be a good idea

I hope some of what I wrote can be useful to you and help you make informed decisions on how to proceed in the future.

I've heard the opossite too. They say modern paint is thin but it's super hard?

 

[Mike PhillipsMike Phillips is verified member.]

Mike... please stop the silliness.

Happy to say we ended that silliness years ago... rops:

This is a very tricky question because no 2 cars have the same paint.

(whole bunch of good stuff removed when I quoted Calendyr)

Good answer. This thread is over 8 years old, not that it matters but according to this profile page the last time he was on the forum was back in July of 2014



I'll stick to what I wrote in my reply back in November of 2009, it's still accurate today.


My reply



I'll add this though...


This questions comes up once in a while and while it's a great questions let's bring a smidgen of the real world to the scenario...


The BIG PICTURE is AFTER you buff out your car's paint and get it to where you're happy... STOP doing the things to it that would cause you to have to COMOUND it again. (think about it)


From the original post...

Given a brand new vehicle, if using a DA (say a PC), and let's say M205/M105-LC white pad, LC gray pad to remove swirls, how many times could a person perform that task before they wear through the clear coat?

How much can a new vehicle's paint withstand? 10 sessions? 5 sessions? 50 sessions?

The question, in a way, assumes that for some reason the paint on the car will become so abused that it will need to be compounding over and over again. This could be true if the owner washes the car wit a brick or runs it through a swirl-o-matic brush style car wash.

But anyone taking upon themselves to buy a polisher and learn how to become their own detailer would be smart enough to also figure out to wash their car carefully so as not to put swirls and scratches back into the paint to cause them to have to use a compound again let alone, 10 sessions? 5 sessions? 50 sessions?


For example... when I wash my own vehicles, I wash them carefully so I don't have to compound them.


Hope the above puts the question and the answer into the proper perspective.

 

[Mike PhillipsMike Phillips is verified member.]

There's too many unknown factors for anyone with any wisdom to ever be able to give an accurate, factual answer let alone a definitive number.

Heck, just a few weeks ago we held a Detailing 101 class here for a Porsche club and after demonstrating how to use the PC style polisher 4-5 guy let me know they learned that they've been using their polisher for years but had been moving it over the surface too fast.

When trying to remove defects out of the paint you're in essences trying to remove a little paint. If you move a DA style polisher too quickly over the surface you are not effectively removing any paint, thus you won't be effectively removing the swirls.

The above is just one factor that relates the reason there cannot be a definitive answer, let a lone a general number as to,

How many times can you buff?




Correct. I've seen it, but it's pretty rare. From memory, it is something that is usually caused by someone trying to remove each and every scratch out of the hood so they buff and buff and buff. :buffing:


This is why I usually caution people to not try to turn a daily driver into show car, that is don't try to remove each and every scratch out of a car that's just going to get scratched again. Instead, remove all the shallow scratches and stop. This practice will restore a swirl free finish with only the RIDS remaining. This will help the paint job to last over the service life of the vehicle while still creating a beautiful finish.

RIDS = Random Isolated Deeper Scratches
RIDS show up after you do your initial buffing step where you remove the majority of the shallow scratches so now all that's left are the deeper scratches. These remaining deeper scratches are randomly dispersed throughout the finish because they are randomly inflicted into the paint through the normal course of day-in, day-out wear and tear. Because all the shallow scratches have been removed, the remaining deeper scratches now stand out like a sore thumb as it's easier for your eyes to now see them whereas before they were camouflaged by all the lighter swirls and scratches surrounding them.

(RIDS are completely different than Tracers in the way in which they are inflicted and the direction in which they're in the paint)




You're opinion is correct. My answer wasn't a definitive answer and was never meant to be a definitive answer because there is no definitive answer.

I'm not going to skip over to MOL and do search for how many times this question has been asked and then I've answered it much the same way as in my first reply to this thread and now in this long version. Suffice to say a lot.
(Note a lot is two words, not one word)


That is to say this is a very common question, usually by Newbies worried about buffing off too much paint. My answer was meant to remove not just the OP's fear but anyone that reads this into the future, both Lurkers and Forum Members alike. It's not the problem most newbies make it out to be especially if you're starting out with a car in which the paint has all of it's integrity.

By saying,

especially if you're starting out with a car in which the paint has all of it's integrity

What I mean by this is a car in which most, if not all the factory paint is still intact, or in other words, most or all the original factory paint is still on the car.

Now if someone has buffed on the car over aggressively before you the new owner obtains the car, and you the new owner don't know about the over aggressive buffing that's taken place, then chances are better you could burn through the clear coat but not because you removed too much paint buffing in normal ways, but because you started out with a car that didn't have a lot of paint to start with because of the actions of someone who previously worked on the car. In other words, the car had thin paint to start with, that is the car had thin paint before you the new owner worked on it.

Does that make sense?

So here's what I've been typing for years on this subject, let me turn int into a dedicated thread next week.



In most cases, the least of anyone's worries using a DA style polisher, is removing too much paint. If you read forums enough and specifically posts related to removing swirls, it's more likely you'll find examples of people asking for help because they're not getting the swirls out. What this means is they're not removing enough paint.

That's because the way you remove swirls is to remove a little paint to flatten out the surface so that the surface is level with the lowest depth of the deepest defects. Most people struggle with removing enough paint to remove swirls. The majority of people don't have the problem of removing too much paint and exposing the coating under the top coat.

At least that' my observations...


Does that help?

And for reference, I turned the above reply into an article.


How many times can I do paint correction to my car?



Mike Phillips carefully washing an old 2-door Mercury

 

[bofh]

There is a video on Youtube from Chicago Auto Pros called "Jason Burns A Car... How Many Times Can You REALLY Polish Paint?" where they were able to complete 60 passes on a modern car. Obviously YMMV but it's a fun video.

 

[Mike PhillipsMike Phillips is verified member.]

There is a video on Youtube from Chicago Auto Pros called "Jason Burns A Car... How Many Times Can You REALLY Polish Paint?" where they were able to complete 60 passes on a modern car.

Obviously YMMV but it's a fun video.

So many variables for things like this,

Type of pad
Type of product
Downward pressure
Arm speed
Type of tool
Person doing it

I remember Mike Pennington at Meguiar's made a video like this back when I was still at Meguair's and Google had not purchased YouTube yet.

 

[Eldorado2k]

There is a video on Youtube from Chicago Auto Pros called "Jason Burns A Car... How Many Times Can You REALLY Polish Paint?" where they were able to complete 60 passes on a modern car. Obviously YMMV but it's a fun video.

Exactly. Here it is, and until someone else can either duplicate or disprove these results, 60 aggressive compound sessions it is.


Jason Burns A Car... How Many Times Can You REALLY Polish Paint? - YouTube

Geez I’m surprised in all these years no one else has done this and put it out there..

Props to Mike Pennington, but that sounds like an old video that could use a revisit.