How can I avoid Rotary Buffer Swirls/holograms

[ASPHALT ROCKET]

I would like to thank Mike for keeping his word this time and re-opening this thread. If this thread continues there should be a lot to learn about using a rotary here.

 

[Flash Gordon]

I would like to thank Mike for keeping his word and re-opening this thread. If this thread continues there should be a lot to learn about using a rotary here.

Look at Dana being all nice today. Did you attend Church today Dana? rops:

 

[Grizzly]

You're just learning about IPA wipe downs, yet you can polish hologram free with a rotary? Hmmmm, not so sure about that.

Its not a legal requirement to strip the finish in between polishing steps. Before Mike P came here he polished out plenty of cars at Meguiars and never recommended chemically stripping the finish to check your work. He actually said he was confident enough in his work that it was not necessary to strip the finish. Not sure what changed his mind and got him started recommending it here.

I do love how some here run around and cry like little girls anytime someone does not agree with your guy's processes or techniques. It must be hard having to be "correct" all the time. Seems like a few here can never be wrong.

Same people getting into the same arguements but just in different threads.

Last time I checked its not a forum members responsibility to make sure information on this forum is accurate either, thats what the moderators are here for.

Sorry for going OT again but this is getting silly.

 

[A4 1.8tqm]

Its not a legal requirement to strip the finish in between polishing steps. Before Mike P came here he polished out plenty of cars at Meguiars and never recommended chemically stripping the finish to check your work. He actually said he was confident enough in his work that it was not necessary to strip the finish. Not sure what changed his mind and got him started recommending it here.

I think it's just the difference between Mike being confident enough in his own work and having a lot of experience VS. giving advice to the less-experienced to check their work because their still learning.

Look at Dana being all nice today. Did you attend Church today Dana? rops:

:laughing:

 

[oldmodman]

You are giving advice and still need a practice hood?

I've been polishing my own cars for 40 years. And I still keep a "practice hood" around. I'm sure not going to grab a bottle of something new and try it out on someone elses car. I'm going to try it on a paint surface that I am not only familiar with but that I don't care about. And once I am sure of the of the new products quirks THEN I will use it on a "real car".

And it is possible to do a complete correction using only a rotary polisher. Speed across the painted surface, combined with tool speed, pad aggressiveness, and compound will all work with or against each other and must be a learned process.

 

[dnoraker]

You're just learning about IPA wipe downs, yet you can polish hologram free with a rotary? Hmmmm, not so sure about that.

I understand your skepticism. I've been polishing for about four years with the rotary and have buffed close to 100 cars, including buffing my own multiple times. Until this year I finished with the DA 95% of the time. Wanting to cut a step out of my procedure, I started working on trying to finish without holograms on a rotary. On my own vehicles, and ones belonging to family and friends, I am able to see the long-term results of my work. I don't judge it after I wax it, knowing that wax fills holograms, but I wait until after several washes and then check in full sun (I've usually seen the holograms after 2-3 washes). What I found was that I could get most of the car hologram free with a Megs black finishing pad and M205, except for some of the sharper curves where I didn't pull off the pressure enough. Now, I'm using Menzerna 85RD and a blue CCS pad and refining my technique and I haven't found any holograms on my dark red Altima after several washes, even on the curved surfaces. Practice practice practice!

I started trying IPA wipedowns this year, but stopped when it kept marring the paint. What I didn't know was that it needed to be diluted. oops.

It's always a learning process, and I so appreciate the patient help I get on AG. :xyxthumbs:

 

[Rsurfer]

I've been polishing my own cars for 40 years. And I still keep a "practice hood" around. I'm sure not going to grab a bottle of something new and try it out on someone elses car. I'm going to try it on a paint surface that I am not only familiar with but that I don't care about. And once I am sure of the of the new products quirks THEN I will use it on a "real car".

And it is possible to do a complete correction using only a rotary polisher. Speed across the painted surface, combined with tool speed, pad aggressiveness, and compound will all work with or against each other and must be a learned process.

There's a difference between testing products on a practice hood and practicing on your rotary. If you been polishing with a rotary for 40 years like you, you don't need to practice your rotary skills on a practice hood.

 

[jahman]

I appreciate all the advice given, and I kind of expected this to be a touchy subject, lol. I saw it on other threads dealing with rotarys.

I did go and check out some of the cars I did with the rotary in the direct overhead sun to check for holograms, I saw none...so I really don't know what to say. Now what I didn't mention in my first post was a majority of the cars we worked on were light colored (white, silver, lighter metallic colored paints) and we are going to start darker colored cars soon. Maybe the holograms aren't visible on lighter paint? Silver metallics seem to be VERY forgiving. But trust me, I'm a perfectionist and the cars we did still look awesome so far.

Perhaps after a wash they will be visible, don't be surprised to see a thread or a post in another thread from me in the near future frantically asking for help on awful holograms, lol.

Like I said in my first post, I'm a bit paranoid. A friend and myself are looking to get into this as a business, but we need to get lots and lots of practice and have it down perfect first before I expect people to pay me for this type of service. Thats basically why I'm asking, to learn.

What is an IPA wipe down?

Also, about holding the wool pad flat... the guy I bought the flex rotary from told me you should never hold these pads flat, but at a slight angle. He buffed many cars for years so I didnt think he was uninformed. I'm not saying anyone is wrong or right...but I did use a slight angle like he showed me, and everything came out ok so far anyway.

I'm just trying to learn proper technique and there's some great advice here so far. So lets focus on that and stop questioning each others abilities, because anyone who has had more experience than me on a rotary (which is only a few weeks) should be able to help me out, and any help would be appreciated. Thanks in advance.

 

[A4 1.8tqm]

What is an IPA wipe down?

isopropyl alcohol is used to remove oils or residues that may be filling any imperfections to ensure that the surface is in the condition you think it is.

 

[Erik Mejia]

As far as finishing off Hologram free with a Rotary I've made some observations that might help others. Feel free to chime in guys.

Here they are:

It seems less troublesome to finish a Harder paint type with a rotary than a softer one. With some super soft paints it's almost impossible, not worth the headaches (pull out the DA.)

Polishes that keep ample amounts of lubrication, and keep the surface wetter longer seem to work well in helping to avoid Holograms. My guess is the lubrication from these polishes reduce friction that the rotary's spin action, and the foam pads can create. Great polishes for finishing with a rotary that I have used are: Meguiar's 205, Menzerna 85rd. 3m's Ultrafina, Menzerna PO203S, Prima Swirl, and Menzerna 106FA all work well.

Keeping your arm speed, Buffer RPM's ( between700-1000,) down makes a huge difference. Especially towards the end of your sectional pass.

When final polishing, try and exert little to no pressure on the head of your rotary. Let the weight of the machine do the work for you.

Keep your pad as flat as possible, you may need to switch to smaller pads on curved edges to achieve this.

Pads that have little to no cut are excellent for final polishing. You can get away with using a harder/ denser pad (e.g. orange pad) and a good polish, and still get outstanding results, but usually this only works on the hardest of paints.

A lubricating agent like some mineral oil may also come in handy to extend lubrication and working time of polishes.

There have been many online posts, and articles that have been written by other detailing enthusiasts, and professionals about the aforementioned topics. After testing them out personally, You should be able conclude that they for the most part hold true. Hope this helps.:xyxthumbs:

 

[Flash Gordon]

I never do IPA wipedowns. (I wash with APC between steps)

I hardly ever use the 2BM or a Pressure washer (Only during hunting season)

Its rare that I break out the halogens. I prefer sunlight

I purchase my carpet cleaning solution @ Dollar Tree

My LSP collection consist of 2 products. Both cost less then $20

My polish/correction collection consist of only 5 products

I only have 2 sealants

I still use Armor All from time to time

I have not used a window cleaning product other then water in 25 years

* There, this should get the masses in a roar Im the MAN

 

[Grizzly]

I never do IPA wipedowns. (I wash with APC between steps)

I hardly ever use the 2BM or a Pressure washer (Only during hunting season)

Its rare that I break out the halogens. I prefer sunlight

I purchase my carpet cleaning solution @ Dollar Tree

My LSP collection consist of 2 products. Both cost less then $20

My polish/correction collection consist of only 5 products

I only have 2 sealants

I still use Armor All from time to time

I have not used a window cleaning product other then water in 25 years

* There, this should get the masses in a roar Im the MAN

Everyone has their way of doing things, and I can respect that.

Some cannot respect that.

 

[ASPHALT ROCKET]

I never do IPA wipedowns. (I wash with APC between steps)

I hardly ever use the 2BM or a Pressure washer (Only during hunting season)

Its rare that I break out the halogens. I prefer sunlight

I purchase my carpet cleaning solution @ Dollar Tree

My LSP collection consist of 2 products. Both cost less then $20

My polish/correction collection consist of only 5 products

I only have 2 sealants

I still use Armor All from time to time

I have not used a window cleaning product other then water in 25 years

* There, this should get the masses in a roar Im the MAN

I am with you Flash, I do not have a lot products either, really no need for it. I am also with you on the 2BM, really no need.

 

[Fly bye]

If you were skilled with a rotary, you wouldn't need to practice on a practice hood.

Just because someone is skilled at a particular sport, hobby, profession, or whatever, doesn't mean that they do not practice, or that they should not practice. How do you think they became professional

That's like saying professional racing drivers don't do practice laps, or professional football players don't train and practice during the off season.

you shouldn't be giving advice because your not qualified to do so.

Way to go champ :dblthumb2:

 

[WRAPT C5Z06]

Its not a legal requirement to strip the finish in between polishing steps. Before Mike P came here he polished out plenty of cars at Meguiars and never recommended chemically stripping the finish to check your work. He actually said he was confident enough in his work that it was not necessary to strip the finish. Not sure what changed his mind and got him started recommending it here.

I do love how some here run around and cry like little girls anytime someone does not agree with your guy's processes or techniques. It must be hard having to be "correct" all the time. Seems like a few here can never be wrong.

Same people getting into the same arguements but just in different threads.

Last time I checked its not a forum members responsibility to make sure information on this forum is accurate either, thats what the moderators are here for.

Sorry for going OT again but this is getting silly.

How can you be sure of the true results if you're not removing polishing oils that mask the outcome? Especially when using a rotary, you're even more prone to create micro-marring. I was not attacking anyone with that comment. IPA wipedowns or something to strip the polishing oils is a must, IMO.

 

[Rsurfer]

Just because someone is skilled at a particular sport, hobby, profession, or whatever, doesn't mean that they do not practice, or that they should not practice. How do you think they became professional

That's like saying professional racing drivers don't do practice laps, or professional football players don't train and practice during the off season.






Way to go champ :dblthumb2:

I'm sure Paul Dawton after polishing for 14 hrs. a day for 5 days straight gets his practice hood out and practices his rotary skills. I can see Asphalt Rocket practicing his rotary skills on a practice hood after spending 4 days buffing out a car. Rotary skills and driving a race car or playing football are two different animals.

 

[rohnramirez]

Jahman, the way to avoid and remove holograms are knowledge and experience of the machine, process and products to be used in my honest opinion. And Erik and Mike already gave you the best answer, practice! Since practicing will give you the knowledge on how to use a certain chemical and confidence in using the buffer.

I also agree with Dana, that you are most likely to induce holograms at the onset of your correction stages, but not all the time. Not all types, and brands of paint react similarly to heat and pressure.

I also believe in a practice/test panel although i don't have one. Since polishing (although very minute) removes a certain amount of clear, it is not the best idea to keep on polishing the same car over and over for practice. I'm sure not everyone can afford a clear respray every now and then.

 

[Fly bye]

I'm sure Paul Dawton...

Maybe Eric doesen't polish 14 hours every day, but that doesn't mean he is not qualified to give good advice, as Eric is very knowledgeable :xyxthumbs:

I'm not quite clear as to why you think it was ok to rip into a member on this board, a respected member at that.

after polishing for 14 hrs. a day for...

Your logic is flawed heavily. Why in gods name would anyone, after 14 hours of hard work, break out a practice hood and start to practice

That would be like the Pittsburgh Steelers leading Super Bowl XLIII with 4:32 left in the 4th quarter, and they call a timeout to do a practice play??? Where are you coming from?

Eric is a skilled detailer and I've known him for years now, he's also a very nice and helpful person.

I could always give him any portion of a detail project and trust that it would be done professionally.

Now I know you'll come on here and rebut, cause that's the kind of person you are. You think it's ok to rip into someone because you think you are better than they are and it makes you feel good to put others down?

"Eric is not qualified to give advice because he enjoys practicing"

You know what I think, I think you're the one whom shouldn't be giving advise. You clearly belittled a respected member of this forum, and now you are making a very poor attempt to justify your actions. What a sad state of affairs. I didn't want to post this, but it needed to be said.

I won't be clicking back on this thread. I've said all I'm going to say. I'm sure an admin will handle it from here.

 

[Erik Mejia]

Fly bye, and Mike, thanks for going to the plate for me. I'm touched, and do appreciate it. However, I must admit that I probably should have been more specific when writing my original response to the OP. It seems that my neglect in not elaborating further ended up biting me in the rear end. So I guess I'll take this opportunity to elaborate further.

I keep a practice/ test hood around for many reasons, they tend to come in very handy. One reason (call it crazy) is that I sometimes just enjoy walking out into the garage and playing around with my detailing equipment. Not necessarily for practice, but rather more for the enjoyment and satisfaction that doing so provides. I find it relaxing. A second reason is they allow me to demonstrate processes to friends and potential clients. I don't detail for a living, I don't have the time, but I do occasionally work on cars for friends, coworkers, and their referrals. Having a practice hood let's me illustrate to them what a detail might entail as far as the paint is concerned. Not everyone is eager to let you break out a rotary on their finish just to do a test spot, especially after you quote them. Instead, I break out my hood, scuff it up a bit if I need to, and then go to work. This allows them to get a visual of what I would be doing to their car. If the potential client doesn't end up hiring me, then at least I didn't end up polishing their entire panel to blend in any test spot I may have done.

Those are just a few reasons why I keep my old hood around.

As far as RSurfer's comments, I'm not sweating it. I do admit that it caught me off guard, kinda came out of left field (forgive the idiom.) But, I'm used to worst. In my profession you learn to build tough skin, you have to. I've been around long enough to know that some people never learned how to bite their tongues when they don't have something nice to say. It's human nature for some, unfortunately. It would be difficult to make those types of people change, like my favorite financial adviser Dave Ramsey once said "those convinced against their will are of the same opinion still."

Now let's try and get this thread back on track. It has potential to offer some good advice, lets not ruin it with negativity.

You know what I think, I think you're the one whom shouldn't be giving advise. You clearly belittled a respected member of this forum, and now you are making a very poor attempt to justify your actions. What a sad state of affairs. I didn't want to post this, but it needed to be said.

 

[Flash Gordon]

I'm so glad I never get caught up in such childish behavior :bolt: