A situation when a non-forced rotational DA's will correct BETTER than a Flex 3401....

cee....I think you will still need the cyan pads to rid the ticks the SB instills....I don't think the tangerine pads have enough cut to rid ticks....jmo
 
Impressions said:
cee....I think you will still need the cyan pads to rid the ticks the SB instills....I don't think the tangerine pads have enough cut to rid ticks....jmo
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Ever tried an orange pad to remove micro-marring from SB's? Works good.
 
I think Elmo has become extremely wealthy after this recent surbuf boom!! :bowdown:
 
Kevin Brown said:
Another thread,another date:
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This statement would be correct if Flex was claiming orbits per minute. But they do not claim orbits per minute in my manual.

When I turn the backing plate of my Flex 3401 VRG 1 (one) complete revolution (RPM=revolution per minute) the backing plate strokes to one side then to the other then back to the other side so on and so forth. It strokes 20 times per one complete revolution.

Being that the output shaft revolves 480 times in one minute (480 RPM) and the backing plate strokes 20 times in one complete revolution. 480 revolutions x 20 strokes = 9600 strokes. That is why Flex is claiming a stroke rate of 9600 in one minute.

002-18.jpg


The difference is that regardless of how much polish is built up in the pad or how much downward force one exerts on the flex 3401 VRG, there is no way you are going to slow this rate down. Conversely if you reduce the exerted force the machine still holds true to its speed setting. If I may quote Mike Phillips, the Flex 3401 VRG is absolutely Bubba Proof. You just turn it on and steer it. It just does what it does with no vabiables other than pad size and type of pad or product.
 
tuscarora dave said:
regardless of how much polish is built up in the pad or how much downward force one exerts on the flex 3401 VRG, there is no way you are going to slow this rate down..
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This is why I like the 3401 much more than a traditional DA.
 
CEE DOG said:
I'd say you should still get some tangerine and crimson HT pads regardless. The only HT pad I think the Surbuffs could replace would be the Cyan... Assuming of course the same criteria mentioned about which type of abrasives you are dealing in which Mark just mentioned.
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Seems I may need to try both. Thanks!

07 z-oh-6 said:
FYI, surbuf pads work best with non-diminishing abrasives(M105, Ultimate compound, optimum spray compound). If you don't regularly use any of those as your compounds, I'd go with HT pads. If you do, try the surbufs, and follow with the regular flat pads. Lets say you used M105/surbuf, *sometimes* you may have to follow with M105/orange, then a finer pad and finishing polish.

No problem on the car wash.
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I have M105, Meg UC and considering the Opt spray products right now. I am so done with the dust of polishing products after the black Porsche.

Mike.Phillips@Autogeek said:
No worse than using an aggressive foam cutting pad on a DA Polisher... (with common sense).

The SurBuf Pads cut faster because of the fibers themselves, kind of akin to how a wool cutting pad cuts faster than a foam cutting pad on a rotary buffer.

The only downside is the SurBuf pads leave micro-marring but it's no big deal because most people are going to polish afterwards and the depth of the marring is shallow, so it polishes out easily.

:)
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Thanks Mike! You like that "common sense" stipulation.:laughing:

Sounds like I just need to try them to see where they fit in the tool box. Mark told me that the HT Cyan pad may leave some micromarring as well, but they cut better than orange and white pads.

Will the new Opt Hyper Polish spray remove the micromarring of the 105/surbuf with a white 5.5" flat pad and an PCXP? I'm looking for ways to save a step where possible.
 
07 z-oh-6 said:
Currently, just the Flex 3401, but thinking of buying a rotary. I would still use both.
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It was interesting to read Kevin's comments as I thought that the Flex would cut faster than the PCXP.

I would like to learn to use a rotary in a safe environment where I can't mess up someone elses, much less my own car's paint.
 
Kurt_s said:
It was interesting to read Kevin's comments as I thought that the Flex would cut faster than the PCXP.
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Unless you're a MASTER of a traditional DA, the Flex is a lot more efficient than a traditional DA. If you try it, you'll agree.
 
I think buy reading most of this thread... I will invest in the Pad Conditioning Brush for $13 and clean my pads frequently. Lesson learned! haha.
 
tuscarora dave said:
This statement would be correct if Flex was claiming orbits per minute. But they do not claim orbits per minute in my manual.

When I turn the backing plate of my Flex 3401 VRG 1 (one) complete revolution (RPM=revolution per minute) the backing plate strokes to one side then to the other then back to the other side so on and so forth. It strokes 20 times per one complete revolution.

Being that the output shaft revolves 480 times in one minute (480 RPM) and the backing plate strokes 20 times in one complete revolution. 480 revolutions x 20 strokes = 9600 strokes. That is why Flex is claiming a stroke rate of 9600 in one minute.

002-18.jpg


The difference is that regardless of how much polish is built up in the pad or how much downward force one exerts on the flex 3401 VRG, there is no way you are going to slow this rate down. Conversely if you reduce the exerted force the machine still holds true to its speed setting. If I may quote Mike Phillips, the Flex 3401 VRG is absolutely Bubba Proof. You just turn it on and steer it. It just does what it does with no vabiables other than pad size and type of pad or product.
Click to expand...

Gotcha. Flex is using a different terminology to identify the movement the machine creates.

In an attempt to compare "apples to apples" in terms of motion similarities (so the average guy doesn't think their machine is akin to a top fuel dragster in terms of its ability to create a pig-tail like pattern), I simply compared the movement, not the terminology. Regardless, they do claim orbits occasionally, such as on their website and in their pamphlet (which I have one or two of):

flex-xc3401-vrg.jpg


This is not an attack on Flex or the machine at all. It is a well built and innovative machine. Hugely popular and capable, too. If they offered it in a random orbital model... I would likely own one. I do like the feel of the Festool Rotex RO150FEQ. If I was heading to a paint polishing shootout? I'm going with the lowly random orbital. My G110 can deliver more rotations under a pretty decent load (even though they are not force-driven), and it does an in and out motion more times than the Flex does and out and in motion. In & out, out & in... same thing on the opposite side of the pad.

It is important to note that in regards to orbital machines:

A high rate of speed, whether it be rotations, oscillations, strokes, or whatever the companies wish to call them, does NOT always mean better or faster defect removal.

Rapid rotation OR rapid orbiting of the backing plate may deliver inferior results compared to a slower rotating or orbiting machine.

And I know you weren't saying anything about the R/O.... I just can't quit typing sometimes. Im the MAN
 
One thing I can't stand about RO's is any type of curved surface and the damn pad stops rotating. Very annoying.
 
07 z-oh-6 said:
One thing I can't stand about RO's is any type of curved surface and the damn pad stops rotating. Very annoying.
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It can, but doesn't always. I like the comfort it provides- doesn't steer the machine all over the place. :buffing:
 
Thanks for the info Kevin. I see now where all the confusion is coming from about the flex. From Flex themselves.:xyxthumbs:
 
tuscarora dave said:
Thanks for the info Kevin. I see now where all the confusion is coming from about the flex. From Flex themselves.:xyxthumbs:
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Psshhhh... I LOVE your enthusiasm for machines!!!! :applause: Plus you get extra points for your Avatar.
 
Kevin Brown said:
It can, but doesn't always. I like the comfort it provides- doesn't steer the machine all over the place. :buffing:
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Grow some arms KB and you won't have that problem :laughing:





J/K ;)


I'm with Mark on this one, I hate it when my PC stops on curves.
 
Impressions said:
cee....I think you will still need the cyan pads to rid the ticks the SB instills....I don't think the tangerine pads have enough cut to rid ticks....jmo
Click to expand...

Thank you! I haven't used the surbuff pads yet myself. I'm just assuming from what I have read that the tangerine HT would clean up after them well.
 
I haven't used all brands of RO. Having said that, if choosing between the one I did use and the Flex 3401 I would take the 3401 any day of the week. No attack on standard RO's but the one I used was not enjoyable at all. There can be plenty of discussion about what one man can or can't do with one machine or another as far as results. But for me just as important is if you enjoy using the machine or if it makes you miserable. For me I very much enjoy the 3401. The lack of vibration, placement of controls, and quality of workmanship are something that everybody deserves in their machine. :)

Anyway, Back on topic
 
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