Opinions on using APC to clean leather??

[DLB]

Points to Ponder when one may think that it is OK to use non leather-safe products on new coated leathers:

14] Beauty, Comfort and Weakness in Perforated Panels:
Perforated leather seats are gaining popularity in most luxury modern cars. These are supposing coated leathers that are punch through for greater degree of transpiration, besides for the added aesthetic beauty; thus highly absorbent in these perforations. Products cautions against the use on suede will have a damaging effect to the leather structure at the molecular level our eyes cannot see, that will eventually manifest as premature stiffness and cracks.

15] Weakness in leather seat construction:
Needle holes and seam edges in every panel are not protected as you would expect on the surface areas. This construction weakness is where not for suede or non leather-safe products start the early denaturing of the leather with stiffness and resulting in cracks.

What do you think?

Roger Koh
[email protected]

Did I mention that Power Clean is safe and effective on all leather except suede

Dr G. states that optimum power clean is not caustic, so I'm not sure how it could be bad for cleaning coated leather, even in the long run?

So I repeat what Roger asked - What do you think?

Great thread BTW.

DLB

 

[WRAPT C5Z06]

So I repeat what Roger asked - What do you think?

Honestly, I don't know what to think!

 

[David Fermani]

2 totally schools of thought for sure. Roger is the hardcore mad scientist of leather & Judy takes the simplistic 1 demensional approach. Makes you really question some of the stuff on the market through as their concept of leather care is totally off this spectrum all together.

 

[Bunky]

2 totally schools of thought for sure. Roger is the hardcore mad scientist of leather & Judy takes the simplistic 1 demensional approach. Makes you really question some of the stuff on the market through as their concept of leather care is totally off this spectrum all together.

I wonder if your collection of toothbrushes meets Judy's standard of a good brush for leather....(it is a joke).

The good news is that coated (protected) leather is widely used so most people just need to keep it clean and consider a protection product. Some protection products may be theoretically better than others (some leave a more slippery surface, glossy sheen, etc) but many automotive leather care products likely do no real harm.

 

[David Fermani]

I wonder if your collection of toothbrushes meets Judy's standard of a good brush for leather....(it is a joke).

Maybe not Judy's, but I know Roger would. Here's the brush he recommends cleaning leather with:

I guess I'm just a mut when it comes to leather care.

 

[Grizzly]

I wonder if your collection of toothbrushes meets Judy's standard of a good brush for leather....(it is a joke).

The good news is that coated (protected) leather is widely used so most people just need to keep it clean and consider a protection product. Some protection products may be theoretically better than others (some leave a more slippery surface, glossy sheen, etc) but many automotive leather care products likely do no real harm.

What exactly do you recommend for leather cleaning?

I know David's toothbrush technique actually works.

So dont knock it or poke fun at it

 

[Bunky]

So dont knock it or poke fun at it

I was doing just the opposite.

I was mocking how the purists would view they were not appropriate. It seems like leather care to some (especially in the leather care industry) has been become more marketing especially in regards to protected leather. In leather restoration, I can expect better results from various products.

I have used various leather products and while Leather Masters (despite having animal fats) is a nice product other lowly products worked pretty good too.

 

[David Fermani]

I was doing just the opposite.

I got it! No worries. :xyxthumbs: I'm flattered you guys remembered that I used toothbrushes. :dblthumb2:

 

[judyb]

'Toothbrushes' are great (if a little small!!) for cleaning as the bristles are stiff which is what is required.
There is no need to spend a fortune on special brushes. I use a slightly bigger brush (a dish washing brush) my last one cost me 0.18p from the supermarket and has cleaned many leather suites and car interiors and is still going strong. Used gently (and not to scrub) these really allow the foam cleaners to do their job and lift the dirt - toothbrushes would be great for those awkward inaccessible places.

 

[Roger Koh]

Honestly, I don't know what to think!

I'm more concerned with possible side effects of using an APC on leather that I'm unaware about.




This is an example of "side-effect" to the topcoat - totally unaware off...there will be more others...

Aparently Ford doesn't seal the leather in most of their cars!! I discovered this because with even mild pressure lots of red pigment came up with the Collinite. I checked out some Mustang forums and found that its a common problem.

I was very gentle with the Collinite and got pretty good results. I got some of the gloss back, and I definately got the color a lot closer. Unfortunately there is still some difference between surfaces.

Please give me any suggestions you have for protecting the seats. Since Ford didn't do it chemically, I'd like to add as much protection as possible.

Thanks!
Photos are below:

One of the Clothes used:

This color transfer problem is associated with the lost of "Topcoat" - the OEM secondary finish is missing...

Topcoat comes in choice of luster - gloss, satin or matte; in this case gloss may match the vinyl; but satin could also be used to go over the vinyl as well; that will also help to even out the luster level between them; more pleasing to the eyes; as gloss may look too cheap; since coated leather would want to move away from these cheap gloss look; so that the value of the seat would rather be perceived as 100% leather, than a leather combo.

Micro-pigment topcoat is available in aqueous formulation, as soft polyurethane leather topcoat, used by modern tannery worldwide. Qualities to look for, should be: a) lightfast and non-yellowing; b) has excellent flow and leveling properties; c) recoatable and forms a flexible film coat; d) good performing results.


The below partial information is from the other thread explaining the objectives of the finish topcoat; how oblivious side-effects from using non leather-safe products can snowball to such problem...
http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum...2605-opinions-using-apc-clean-leather-10.html


11] Topcoating:
The objective of the topcoat is to impart a film forming coating that provides abrasion and stain resistance to the colorcoat. It is this topcoating that decides its desired luster of gloss, satin or matte. Without this topcoat, the color basecoat would be: a) poor in aesthetics such as appearance and feel; b) susceptible to sticking together or attracting loose dust and dye especially in hot humid climate region; c) poor physical properties such as wet rub, sweat resistant and scuff resistant; d) poor in ageing properties such as soil resistant and wet cleaning resistant.


I will explain how to correct this problem holistically, if you have further interest - so that this problem may be put to rest with the peace of mind until the topcoat is further removed by non leather-safe products.


I foresee a leather-safe "Leather Appearance Management Program" would be an accepted concept of the future, available today.


Roger Koh
[email protected]

 

[WRAPT C5Z06]

I'm more concerned with possible side effects of using an APC on leather that I'm unaware about.




This is an example of "side-effect" to the topcoat - totally unaware off...there will be more others...





This color transfer problem is associated with the lost of "Topcoat" - the OEM secondary finish is missing...

Topcoat comes in choice of luster - gloss, satin or matte; in this case gloss may match the vinyl; but satin could also be used to go over the vinyl as well; that will also help to even out the luster level between them; more pleasing to the eyes; as gloss may look too cheap; since coated leather would want to move away from these cheap gloss look; so that the value of the seat would rather be perceived as 100% leather, than a leather combo.

Micro-pigment topcoat is available in aqueous formulation, as soft polyurethane leather topcoat, used by modern tannery worldwide. Qualities to look for, should be: a) lightfast and non-yellowing; b) has excellent flow and leveling properties; c) recoatable and forms a flexible film coat; d) good performing results.


The below partial information is from the other thread explaining the objectives of the finish topcoat; how oblivious side-effects from using non leather-safe products can snowball to such problem...
http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum...2605-opinions-using-apc-clean-leather-10.html


11] Topcoating:
The objective of the topcoat is to impart a film forming coating that provides abrasion and stain resistance to the colorcoat. It is this topcoating that decides its desired luster of gloss, satin or matte. Without this topcoat, the color basecoat would be: a) poor in aesthetics such as appearance and feel; b) susceptible to sticking together or attracting loose dust and dye especially in hot humid climate region; c) poor physical properties such as wet rub, sweat resistant and scuff resistant; d) poor in ageing properties such as soil resistant and wet cleaning resistant.


I will explain how to correct this problem holistically, if you have further interest - so that this problem may be put to rest with the peace of mind until the topcoat is further removed by non leather-safe products.


I foresee a leather-safe "Leather Appearance Management Program" would be an accepted concept of the future, available today.


Roger Koh
[email protected]

Roger,

The red leather is still considered coated or finished leather? That's crazy how much of the color came off!

 

[Roger Koh]

Roger,

The red leather is still considered coated or finished leather? That's crazy how much of the color came off!

All smooth auto seat are finished leathers; including the Ford King Ranch aniline leather. The pigmented types are both colorcoated and topcoated; while else the more expensive aniline types are “stained or dyed” follows with topcoat. Pigment colors are opaque and aniline colors are transparent.

This red leather could be a micro-pigmented leather also known as semi-aniline. It could be confirm only if the reversed side is also red; if this is so, then this leather would have been first dyed through both sides as you see the video on “Fatliqour” by Discovery Channel – dyed first prior to fatliquoring it. HowStuffWorks Videos "Dirty Jobs: Fat-liquor"

As the topcoat may have been removed obliviously; anyway it’s clear or transparent, so even if it’s been brushed off with stiff nylon brush or extracted with towels, one can hardly notice the damage. Until the colorcoat is left exposed; further usage of unsafe alkaline and or alcohol content solution will cause dyestuff to bleed through the micro-pigmented coating.

To test if the red transfer to the cloth is actually the transparent dyestuff; a pH 2.3 Stripper is used.

How to rectify the situation if it involves the dyestuff…remember we have seen the video on Isoelectric Point and its relevancy here…maybe let’s watch it one more time…

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fkv89VW8g38]YouTube - The Isoelectric Point of Proteins - BV 5[/video]

Leather structure has an average pH of 3 to 5, any alkaline pH value above its isoelectric point will shift the protein leather fibers negative (-).
As the dyestuff is also negative (-), it breaks the hydrogen-bond and leach out as fugitive dyes.

To rectify this bleeding problem is to reverse the protein fibers back to positive (+); by acidifying it with a pH 2.0 acidifier. Since pH 2.0 is below the leather isoelectric point; it will again shift the protein fibers back to (+) to hydrogen-bond with the (-) dyestuff. When fibrils and the dyestuff are attracted to each other like magnet (unlike poles attract), the profuse bleeding stops.

When we rely on the general acceptable principle of science, even as the neurosurgeon practices, results can be very predictable.

This will bring reputation to our professionalism; for the well-to-do and the educated will stay as clients and are willing to pay a premium when we take time to educate them our service process, as poor leather educated customers will come and go to shop for the cheapest price.

Educated clients understand that expensive leather services is cheap in the long term.

Further repeat readings:

7] Leather Finish Types:
The finish of leather determine its finish types and the majority of leather seats are pigmented; which include the pigmented non-absorbent, micro-pigment semi-absorbent and the napa-pigmented absorbent; these are also referred to as the coated leathers. Aniline leathers found in Ford King Ranch is aniline dyed with a gloss topcoat. The reverse side of smooth leather is also used as suede trim in some models; so products safe for suede should also be safe for its smooth leather side and vice versa.

8] Pigment Color Coating:
Auto pigment is UV stronger than the typical indoor furnishing pigment type. The opaque color coating we see is a film ratio averaging 1 part pigment to 2 part binder in various formulations; with an average micron thickness of 0.02mm. This pigment color coating is essentially for the fashion aesthetic appeal.

Roger Koh
[email protected]

 

[Dr. G]

This discussion is producing a lot of information, some of which is very relevant and useful for cleaning automotive leather and some that are irrelevant and may only cause confusion. As it was already mentioned, the majority of automotive leather (around 90%) is coated while naked (uncoated) leather is used to a much lesser extent (around 10%). Although suede is also made from natural aniline leathers, the surface has been brushed or buffed on the grain side to soften it much further. This process increases the leather surface exposure making it extremely more absorbent and very difficult to clean. However, there is hardly any suede used in the automotive industry due to these factors. The reason we mentioned not to use Power Clean on suede is that many use Power Clean to clean leather jackets, couches, etc. and that is where you come across suede finishes from time to time.

So let’s focus the discussion back on the automotive leather cleaning. In general, when you clean a surface, you can use mechanical cleaning, chemical cleaning, or a combination of both. As Judy pointed out, there is no need to reach for ”stronger and stronger products” to clean leather and unlike what others have suggested, there is no need to have 5 different cleaners for each type of leather either. A properly formulated cleaner should use the right combination of surfactants to loosen dirt and emulsify oils without being aggressive.

However, we also recommend against using mechanical abrasion as a means of cleaning leather specially when dealing with naked leather that is wet. Water easily penetrates naked leather which causes the collagen fibers to swell. This makes leather very soft and highly prone to being abraded and damaged. So when cleaning naked leather, you should minimize mechanical cleaning and instead use a cleaning system that is safe but effective to eliminate the need for abrasion. Whether you are using Power Clean or any other cleaner, use a microfiber towel to wipe it off since even terry cloth can damage softened leather. While using a cleaner that is too strong can break down the fibers, one that is ineffective, increases the need for mechanical abrasion causing the breakdown of collagen fibers as well.

With coated leather, you are mainly dealing with urethane or similar top coat. The softening effect is not in play anymore, however, it is still prudent to use a surfactant system that emulsifies contaminants to minimize the need for abrasion. As we see it more clearly on a clear coat finish, abrasion will leave micro marring in the coating which creates more surface area for contaminants to bond with. So again we recommend using a safe and effective cleaners with a microfiber towel as the best approach. Finally as most people here often do, you can do your own testing by obtaining sample pieces of naked hide from any leather shop to test various products and processes, just as we do in our labs.

 

[Roger Koh]

Points to Ponder when one may think that it is OK to use non leather-safe products on new coated leathers:

14] Beauty, Comfort and Weakness in Perforated Panels:
Perforated leather seats are gaining popularity in most luxury modern cars. These are supposing coated leathers that are punch through for greater degree of transpiration, besides for the added aesthetic beauty; thus highly absorbent in these perforations. Products cautions against the use on suede will have a damaging effect to the leather structure at the molecular level our eyes cannot see, that will eventually manifest as premature stiffness and cracks.

What do you think?

Roger Koh
[email protected]

Here is one example of side-effect stiffness that leads to cracks...



#1]
Fatliquoring into the cracked perforation holes to rejuvenate the leather for softness, strength and suppleness.

#2]
It’s an extensive detailed repair to the cracked perforation.

#3]
This leather seat restoration repairs comes with a 3 years warranty on material and workmanship.

Roger Koh
[email protected]

 

[David Fermani]

'Toothbrushes' are great (if a little small!!) for cleaning as the bristles are stiff which is what is required.
There is no need to spend a fortune on special brushes. I use a slightly bigger brush (a dish washing brush) my last one cost me 0.18p from the supermarket and has cleaned many leather suites and car interiors and is still going strong. Used gently (and not to scrub) these really allow the foam cleaners to do their job and lift the dirt - toothbrushes would be great for those awkward inaccessible places.

Excellent info that went right to my head!! Beside toothbrushes, here's a pic of my leather/interior utensils:

With coated leather, you are mainly dealing with urethane or similar top coat. The softening effect is not in play anymore, however, it is still prudent to use a surfactant system that emulsifies contaminants to minimize the need for abrasion. As we see it more clearly on a clear coat finish, abrasion will leave micro marring in the coating which creates more surface area for contaminants to bond with. So again we recommend using a safe and effective cleaners with a microfiber towel as the best approach. Finally as most people here often do, you can do your own testing by obtaining sample pieces of naked hide from any leather shop to test various products and processes, just as we do in our labs.

Hello David - Thanks for lending your professional opinion to the discussion. I find it close to impossible to properly/effectively clean a surface by spraying & wiping alone. Most moderate to heavy soiling (which is quite common place) requires a mechanical action to properly clean the surface. Although it may be a double edged sword action, it is required to clean surface soiling such as this:

 

[Dr. G]

Roger,


Let me be clear so that you do not try to make any more non-sense comments by changing my words. If you read my post again, you will see that I never said that Power Clean does any damage to suede. What I clearly said and Chris and I have said throughout this discussion is that we do not recommend Power Clean for use on suede. The reason we do not recommend it for suede is that we have never tested it on any suede finishes! Power Clean was designed for automotive use where suede is not commonly used. Our recommendation is based on over 4 years of testing of Power Clean on naked leather, coated leather, and perforated leather! In the 4 years of testing, we have never experienced or heard of dye removal when using Power Clean or seen or heard of leather damage and/or cracking from Power Clean usage either. Do you have any clue as what products were used on these seats that you have posted here?


When you state that:



"Products cautions against the use on suede will have a damaging effect to the leather structure at the molecular level our eyes cannot see, that will eventually manifest as premature stiffness and cracks"


by this reasoning then Power Clean should be safe on seude, however, just making such statements does not make it true since suede is processed very differently. In the spirit of separating facts from fiction, let me also share a little knowledge of chemistry with you. Aniline dyes can have non-bonding interaction with leather through hydrogen bonds as well as covalent bonding with leather through the reaction of amine group of aniline and the carboxyl group of collagen to form an imine. Imines are much more prone to being hydrolyzed in acidic media since hydrogen ion facilitates break down of this bond.So when you talk about there is this bond, it and form contain an amine group which is
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[FONT=&quot][/FONT]

It is great that you decided to join the discussion to share your knowledge and help people find solutions. I appreciate if you limit your comments to facts about your products instead of making non-sense conclusions about what I said. Thank you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Koh

Points to Ponder when one may think that it is OK to use non leather-safe products on new coated leathers:

14] Beauty, Comfort and Weakness in Perforated Panels:
Perforated leather seats are gaining popularity in most luxury modern cars. These are supposing coated leathers that are punch through for greater degree of transpiration, besides for the added aesthetic beauty; thus highly absorbent in these perforations. Products cautions against the use on suede will have a damaging effect to the leather structure at the molecular level our eyes cannot see, that will eventually manifest as premature stiffness and cracks.

What do you think?

Roger Koh
[email protected]

Here is one example of side-effect stiffness that leads to cracks...

#1]
Fatliquoring into the cracked perforation holes to rejuvenate the leather for softness, strength and suppleness.

#2]
It’s an extensive detailed repair to the cracked perforation.

#3]
This leather seat restoration repairs comes with a 3 years warranty on material and workmanship.

Roger Koh
[email protected][/QUOTE]

 

[Dr. G]

David,

I never meant to tell you how to detail leather seats since you are very experienced and knowledgeable in this area. What I said was just our recommendation based on the chemistry of leather. Each case is very different and you should choose the best approach based on your experience and what works best in that situation.

By the way, your work looks superb as always. Thank you.

Excellent info that went right to my head!! Beside toothbrushes, here's a pic of my leather/interior utensils:

Hello David - Thanks for lending your professional opinion to the discussion. I find it close to impossible to properly/effectively clean a surface by spraying & wiping alone. Most moderate to heavy soiling (which is quite common place) requires a mechanical action to properly clean the surface. Although it may be a double edged sword action, it is required to clean surface soiling such as this:

 

[rwright]

Mark,
This is an excellent thread. Probably one of the best threads I have read on AGO in a long, long time. Thank you for bringing this to the attention of not only enthusiasts, but part-time and full time detailers everywhere.

Judy, David, Roger, and Dr. G.,
Thank you all very much for the information you have provided. I'm certain that if people will take the time to read the entire article they will walk away with a lot of useful information. I know that I have to this point.

Again, a big THANKS to everyone!

Richard

 

[WRAPT C5Z06]

Roger,


Let me be clear so that you do not try to make any more non-sense comments by changing my words. If you read my post again, you will see that I never said that Power Clean does any damage to suede. What I clearly said and Chris and I have said throughout this discussion is that we do not recommend Power Clean for use on suede. The reason we do not recommend it for suede is that we have never tested it on any suede finishes! Power Clean was designed for automotive use where suede is not commonly used. Our recommendation is based on over 4 years of testing of Power Clean on naked leather, coated leather, and perforated leather! In the 4 years of testing, we have never experienced or heard of dye removal when using Power Clean or seen or heard of leather damage and/or cracking from Power Clean usage either. Do you have any clue as what products were used on these seats that you have posted here?


When you state that:



"Products cautions against the use on suede will have a damaging effect to the leather structure at the molecular level our eyes cannot see, that will eventually manifest as premature stiffness and cracks"


by this reasoning then Power Clean should be safe on seude, however, just making such statements does not make it true since suede is processed very differently. In the spirit of separating facts from fiction, let me also share a little knowledge of chemistry with you. Aniline dyes can have non-bonding interaction with leather through hydrogen bonds as well as covalent bonding with leather through the reaction of amine group of aniline and the carboxyl group of collagen to form an imine. Imines are much more prone to being hydrolyzed in acidic media since hydrogen ion facilitates break down of this bond.So when you talk about there is this bond, it and form contain an amine group which is

I do not want to get into a pissing match with you here. The only reason I joined this discussion was due to a request by the OP. It is great that you decided to join the discussion to share your knowledge and help people find solutions. I appreciate if you limit your comments to facts about your products instead of making non-sense conclusions about what I said. Thank you.

[/QUOTE]
:urtheman: :urtheman:

David,

I keep going back and forth whether I should use OPC to clean leather in autos. Well, after reading your responses in the thread, I'm not looking back anymore. I will continue to use OPC for cleaning leather as well as many other areas. I think your expertise in chemistry speaks volumes in this thread. I love OPC, it's such a versatile product! Anyhow, I used OPC un-diluted on coated auto leather that had years of ingrained dirt. It wasn't worn, just dirty. OPC cleaned it quickly and effectively. You stated earlier in the thread that OPC should be used from 3:1 to 10:1. Would you recommend not using it un-diluted on ingrained, dirty leather??

Mark,
This is an excellent thread. Probably one of the best threads I have read on AGO in a long, long time. Thank you for bringing this to the attention of not only enthusiasts, but part-time and full time detailers everywhere.

Judy, David, Roger, and Dr. G.,
Thank you all very much for the information you have provided. I'm certain that if people will take the time to read the entire article they will walk away with a lot of useful information. I know that I have to this point.

Again, a big THANKS to everyone!

Richard

Richard, I'm glad this has become such an informative thread. It's something I've always wondered about! I thank you as well for thanking me...haha. You're a huge asset and a great guy to the detailing community! rops:

 

[WestEnd]

I've decided to only buy cars with cloth interior from now on. Just Kidding.

I have been glued to this thread, it's info that I have wanted for years. Not just hearsay but actual leather experts discussing valid points from their research.

Also, I want to thank Dr. G and his company for not marketing a "leather cleaner" label and using the same product as may be happening within other companies (conjecture), as we have discussed. OPT could have easily done so and avoided this conversation. That alone shows integrity and confidence in their products based on years of research.

That's not to say other brands marketed as leather cleaners are only relabeled. I am sure many companies have specific research for their specific leather cleaners.

I am not discounting any knowledge shared by the others here. All of the information has been very educational and much appreciated. Even spirited debate is healthy at times. Thanks again to all of you.

Either way, I will be trying OPC on my leather now to compare the results to my needs.