Opinions on using APC to clean leather??

This thread is awesome.... with Dr. G laying the smackdown making it even better! :laughing:

:urtheman:
 
07 z-oh-6 said:
It has nothing to do with what works for me, I'm more concerned with possible side effects of using an APC on leather that I'm unaware about.
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Look no brands mentioned...neither do I.

So, shall we continue or start a new thread entitled - "All I want to know about using unsafe leather products with possible side effects on auto leathers I'm unaware about?".


Roger Koh
[email protected]
 
Hi Roger

I think the problem is that while the title says "APC", post number 1 by the OP states that more specifically he seeks info about Optimum Power Clean…so it kinda looks like you were lumping all APCs into an overgeneralized category. Anyone who reads the whole thread will see that, and I don't think any harm is done. Also, David made the distinction of OPC not having harmful contents found in most APCs in his first post and you may have overlooked that. Hopefully everyone can see that you have offered very helpful "general" advice and David has offered very helpful "specific" facts regarding Optimum's product.

Best Regards,

Chris@Optimum


Sent from my ViP4 viaTapatalk
 
Chris@Optimum said:
Hi Roger

I think the problem is that while the title says "APC", post number 1 by the OP states that more specifically he seeks info about Optimum Power Clean…so it kinda looks like you were lumping all APCs into an overgeneralized category. Anyone who reads the whole thread will see that, and I don't think any harm is done. Also, David made the distinction of OPC not having harmful contents found in most APCs in his first post and you may have overlooked that. Hopefully everyone can see that you have offered very helpful "general" advice and David has offered very helpful "specific" facts regarding Optimum's product.

Best Regards,

Chris@Optimum


Sent from my ViP4 viaTapatalk
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:righton:
 
rwright said:
mark,
this is an excellent thread. Probably one of the best threads i have read on ago in a long, long time. Thank you for bringing this to the attention of not only enthusiasts, but part-time and full time detailers everywhere.

Judy, david, roger, and dr. G.,
thank you all very much for the information you have provided. I'm certain that if people will take the time to read the entire article they will walk away with a lot of useful information. I know that i have to this point.

Again, a big thanks to everyone!

Richard
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i agreee x 79,000!!!
 
CEE DOG said:
rwright said:
Mark,
This is an excellent thread. Probably one of the best threads I have read on AGO in a long, long time. Thank you for bringing this to the attention of not only enthusiasts, but part-time and full time detailers everywhere.

Judy, David, Roger, and Dr. G.,
Thank you all very much for the information you have provided. I'm certain that if people will take the time to read the entire article they will walk away with a lot of useful information. I know that I have to this point.

Again, a big THANKS to everyone!

Richard
Click to expand...
i agreee x 79,000!!!
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Well I agree 79,000 x 79,000!

Seriously though - thank you very much to the pro's that chimed in on this. One of the most informational threads I have read in a long time period.

When the thread of the year awards are presented, it is going to be tough to beat this one.

DLB
 
I used OPC un-diluted on coated auto leather that had years of ingrained dirt. It wasn't worn, just dirty. OPC cleaned it quickly and effectively. You stated earlier in the thread that OPC should be used from 3:1 to 10:1. Would you recommend not using it un-diluted on ingrained, dirty leather??
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Mark, I just realized that we didn't answer your question about using OPC undiluted. The only reason we recommend dilutions is to conserve a very concentrated product...not because it is harmful unless diluted. You can feel free to adjust OPC to the concentration each job requires.
 
To state that one should be cautious of cleaners and the negative effect they may have on "leather" yet then claim that "conditioners" are no good for "leather" because they cannot permeate or reach the "leather" (due to a top coat) are talking in circles, it's self-refuting.

Or did I miss the clarification on that?


Anthony
 
So I am trying to understand this like everyone else, and have read through all of this twice now.

For modern, coated leather, being clean is the most important thing. A leather safe APC such as OPC is fine, as well as dedicated leather cleaners. PH is important in cleaners as well as the exclusion of caustic cleaners.

Since leather is coated, conditioners do not penetrate the leather, and are likely to attract more dirt than anything else. If / when the coating wears off (little discussion around this) conditioners make more sense.

Perforated leather would be an exception and would be very absorbant, so caution should be used with cleaners .... but should conditioners be used on perforated leathers??

Agitation is sometimes necessary to get leather clean, but should be gentle, and not scrubbing. Toothbrushes are fine for leather cleaning, as well as purpose designed leather brushes and some kitchen brushes. Terry towels / applicators also work well for cleaning.

So we can keep our coated leather clean, but how do we prevent cracking?

This is my best stab at this, corrections / additions welcome.
 
Anthony Orosco said:
To state that one should be cautious of cleaners and the negative effect they may have on "leather" yet then claim that "conditioners" are no good for "leather" because they cannot permeate or reach the "leather" (due to a top coat) are talking in circles, it's self-refuting.

Or did I miss the clarification on that?


Anthony
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Thank you for your interesting question, and hopefully we can clear this contradiction out.

Unfortunately the word leather is used loosely – I would want to separate coated leathers into the bottom layer as the “leather structure” and the upper layer colorcoat and the topcoat as the “leather finish”.

Likewise the word conditioner – if we can add an adjective to it, will certainly help out the confusion; thus “structure conditioner” versus “finish conditioner”.

Does it sound better now…before I explain further?

By the way, could you cut and paste where you have this information from, so that my explanation may be conclusive.


Roger Koh
 
Speaking of OPC, is there anything that can be added to take away the smell of cat urine? Stuff stinks....
 
Roger Koh said:
Thank you for your interesting question, and hopefully we can clear this contradiction out.

Unfortunately the word leather is used loosely – I would want to separate coated leathers into the bottom layer as the “leather structure” and the upper layer colorcoat and the topcoat as the “leather finish”.

Likewise the word conditioner – if we can add an adjective to it, will certainly help out the confusion; thus “structure conditioner” versus “finish conditioner”.

Does it sound better now…before I explain further?

By the way, could you cut and paste where you have this information from, so that my explanation may be conclusive.


Roger Koh
[email protected]
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Roger,

Thanks for the reply. I have a few years detailing cars and while no expert in leather I grasp that it was a once living creature and has its own special areas of cleaning and protection.

Thanks again,
Anthony
 
LegacyGT said:
So I am trying to understand this like everyone else, and have read through all of this twice now.

For modern, coated leather, being clean is the most important thing. A leather safe APC such as OPC is fine, as well as dedicated leather cleaners. PH is important in cleaners as well as the exclusion of caustic cleaners.

Since leather is coated, conditioners do not penetrate the leather, and are likely to attract more dirt than anything else. If / when the coating wears off (little discussion around this) conditioners make more sense.

Perforated leather would be an exception and would be very absorbant, so caution should be used with cleaners .... but should conditioners be used on perforated leathers??

Agitation is sometimes necessary to get leather clean, but should be gentle, and not scrubbing. Toothbrushes are fine for leather cleaning, as well as purpose designed leather brushes and some kitchen brushes. Terry towels / applicators also work well for cleaning.

So we can keep our coated leather clean, but how do we prevent cracking?

This is my best stab at this, corrections / additions welcome.
Click to expand...



Cleaners used for coated leathers may range from the class of Preparatory-Cleaner, Preconditioner-Cleaner and Cleaner to the leather acidic Rinse; in terms of cleaning power to match the severity of soiling level (to avoid unnecessary harmful physical action to the finish) and returning the chemistry integrity of the leather with a pH 3.0 rinse to produce a healthy squeaky feel. Leather-safe cleaning products are products that have the same pH range as that of leather with an average pH of 3 to 5. Caustic cleaners streak the leather finish easily and may produce a brightening effect often mistaken for cleanliness; when these non-leather-safe products seep into the needle holes and seams; it will result in stiffness in these weak construction areas when dry; and manifest as cracks when left alone for too long. To rectify these side-effects, a pH 2.0 acidifier is recommended to neutralize it. Thus even unsafe alkaline cleaners with its neutralizing counterpart incorporated into the cleaning system makes it safe. Symptoms of side-effects associated with alkaline exposure like brightness, streaks and stickiness to the leather finish is nipped at the bud from snowballing with this available pH 2.0 acidifier counterparts.

Conditioner meant for softening the leather structure should NOT be used while the finish coating is healthy; but very necessary even for new coated leathers, onto the weak construction areas namely the seam and needle holes; apply only to these lines and removing the strays from the surface is necessary – otherwise it’s a nuisance and only stays to attract more soiling. When leather-finish (colorcoat and topcoat) wears and becomes absorbent (turns darker when wet) the appropriate structure-conditioner is mandatory to maintain the leather suppleness; otherwise stiffness with stress from compressing, stretching and flexing very soon leads to cracks. So far I only know 2 widely known brands plus one that has the ability to do so, it’s to replenish the diminish original tannery fatliquor (life-blood of leathers); choose the one closest to what you see in this video, you can’t go wrong to have the leather-structure as soft as you wish - HowStuffWorks Videos "Dirty Jobs: Fat-liquor"

To keep these perforated panels’ soft and supple, structure-conditioner applied onto the needle holes and wear areas is highly recommended; strays onto the leather-finish should be removed immediately, and test for stickiness when dry with finger tactile feel.

Harsh agitation has the more likelihood of removing the clear topcoat our eyes can’t see or marring it creating more micron surface areas for soiling particles to lodge in. Detailing horsehair brush is highly recommended as it will always retain its even level upon surface contact even deep into the grooves with good memory; however horsehair brushes still comes in various design some good and some design is just too long that does not stand straight when wet, for efficient cleaning.

Cracking occurs in two levels, one to the leather-finish which comprises the colorcoat and the topcoat averaging 0.02mm and the other is the leather-structure averaging form 0.9 to 1.3mm in thickness.

Leather is heat sensitive. To prevent cracking, we have to prevent the Fatliquor from the leather-structure and the Plasticizers from the leather-finish, both from evaporating as VOC (volatile organic compound) from direct sunlight and from cleaning with steam.

Leather is also pH sensitive. To prevent cracking, alkaline exposure should be nipped at the bud; both from sweat and cleaning solution. A pH 3.0 leather rinse is recommended to neutralize the urea traces in our sweat from shifting alkaline; especially to the steering wheel, gear knob and to the other direct body contact areas; during routine maintenance or immediately after a humid and sweaty ride. A pH 2.0 acidifier is recommended when non-leather-safe alkaline solution is used to return the leather to its healthy chemistry integrity of a squeaky feel when wet. A point to remember, acid tightens the finish making it stronger, while alkaline swells, wedges and weakens it.

Roger Koh
 
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