Noob already pwned by this forum....

bhk1004

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Well I went to a detailing mini get together that was introducing some products and my interests got perked on this topic... well after reading all the information on some forums along with most of the information on this website... I was even more confused than when I originally started on which DA machine I should buy.

Well... I got so frustrated decided to just buy a Flex that came with a set of Chemical guy pads, and then remedied the only problem that people seemed to have with the Flex and bought a 3" Griot DA that came with a bunch of pads. Pad selection seemed almost even worse than DA selection so I just looked for some thing that was bundled so I could be "forced" to use those pads and i can worry about getting pads later when I screw up the ones that I already have.

So now ive been pwned out of 500 dollars cause of all the recommendations and such of this forum. Well now just wanted to make sure that my selection of polishes is appropriate.

I was planning on using the 205 scratch X ultimate compoud and 105. I kind of like meguiars because of the fact that I can get it locally very easily and its readily available all over the place. Do you think I am jumping too aggressive from the 205? or is this list okay? Thx for any feed back!!
 
Just a suggestion bhk, the experts here are probably going to need some more information .......they'll want to know what you're trying to repair (scratches, swirls, oxidation, etc). Is your Flex a DA or Rotary? Then they can help you decide by telling you what has worked best for them in similiar situations.

I'm new to using a polisher myself, so I know what you mean about all the info getting confusing. Good Luck.....and btw, it gets easier.
 
okay... for the car it is a 2008 audi s5 black. the reason im doing this is cause this car shows every single scratch in the world. So after washing/claying/sealing,waxing all i can see is scratches everywhere. mostly just surface scratches but i need them to be gone. there are some places where there is some bad scraches but nothing insane. mainly me wiping things off from my car using walmart brand microfiber towels before i knew the cheap stuff scratches your car...


This will mainly be used on my car, my wifes car, family members cars if they want me to help them out.

oh yah have been using liquid glass as my "wax" for a few months. i seems this stuff is more of a sealer? or something? haha im not really sure, but it looks great and is easy to put on and off. just wonder if this is a sealer or a wax? if its a sealer should I also add some wax ontop of it? thx for any help guys.
 
first off welcome to AG

Sorry to hear this in your first post. If you had posted earlier, ppl would have chimed in with recommendations for what you wanted to do.

Flex is a nice machine but many started out with a DA like the Porter Cable or Griots or Meg's saving some scratch for lots of other detailing accoutrements.

Stuff I've read on the 3" Griots is that it is underpowered and a 3" bp with 4" pads on a DA is the way to go.

Anyways back to the topic at hand. In order to recommend stuff, it would be helpful to know what kind of vehicle you will be using it on, maybe include some sun shot photos of the defects you want to take care of (not everything can and should be fixed by buffing).

Depending on how much correction and time you are willing to invest, you can do a 1 to 3 step polish after washing & claying.

A typical 3 step with the Meg's line would be 105 or UC on orange, followed by 205 on a white, and maybe 205 on a black pad.

The key is to use the least aggressive method to get the job done and to do a test spot so you know what works on your paint before you do the entire car and find out you didn't get the level of correction you were looking for.
 
okay... for the car it is a 2008 audi s5 black. the reason im doing this is cause this car shows every single scratch in the world.

One thing I would recommend is doing a Test Spot with whatever pad, product and tool you choose to start with, make sure you can make one spot look good before buffing out the entire car.

I've come across Audi's with incredibly hard paint and Audi's with incredibly soft paint, so make sure you're getting the results you want and expect in one small area before moving on...


Audi Soft Paint - Making Generalizations about Hardness and Softness



:)
 
Where did you get this?

:confused:

Amazon.com: Flex XC 3401 VRG Orbital Polisher (Dual Action) COMPLETE PAD KIT: Automotive

amazon. pad selection is just as much of a pain or worse because people dont name anything... the just mention a brand and a color.. and some brands have more than 1 shade of a certain color or different types of oranges or blues or stuff so I have no idea what im looking at. So decided to j ust get something that came with a few pads so I dont need to think about it.

So after reading your huge write up on Meguiar's Polishing compounds i wanted to get the 205/scratch X/ultimate compound/105. You think this is a good point to start off? or you think between the 205 and the scratch X im jumping too aggressively?
 
So after reading your huge write up on Meguiar's Polishing compounds i wanted to get the 205/scratch X/ultimate compound/105.

You think this is a good point to start off? or you think between the 205 and the scratch X im jumping too aggressively?


Have you already purchased the Meguiar's products?

M205 and ScratchX are very non-aggressive...

They might work and they might not, it depends upon how hard the paint is, how deep the swirls and scratches are and how good your technique for using the Flex 3401 is.

If you're new to the Flex, then I would recommend practicing on a car that's not your black Audi or practice on the trunk lid till you can prove to yourself you can get GREAT results on that paint system.

I'm worried that if the paint is really hard you might have a difficult time starting out for your first time machine polishing.

A good way to practice though would be with the M205 as it's a very easy product to work with and you certainly can't hurt anything with it... so maybe keep it simple and start there.

The Wolfgang Total Swirl Remover and Finishing Glaze are also incredibly easy products to work with for first timers...


:)
 
so your recommending me to give the wolfgang twins a try? only reason I kind of like to stick with meguiars... if I run out of something I can just run down to walmart, or autozone or something and pickup whatever i ran out of. I really hate ordering things online. anyways. So instead of what i mentioned earlier about the 4 polishs from meguiars you think I should stick with this wolfgang twins?

The reason im asking which one you think i should stick with is, because no matter what the product, someone has pictures of it doing absolutely incredible things... so in the end everything seems like it can do the job. I just dont want to get stuck in the middle of something and just CANNOT get rid of the swirls or whatever that is left on my vehicle. i had just read alot of good reviews on the 105/205 system so i thought adding a few in the middle polishes would end up working out good.

Also, what DA should I go with for 4 inch pads? I was originally going to get the 3" Griots... but someone mentioned that it was under powered so I canceled the order. should I just get the regular 6inch griot and get the 3.5" backing plate and 4inch pads? and then the crazy question of what pads do i need to get...
 
I think you will have some challenges. If you did the research, got the Flex and still wondering you probably need to find a detailer that can help you. If you have looked some of the videos and really cannot grasp everything you really do not understand some of the concepts (nothing wrong with that).

The detailer can help understand because what will happen is that you will do something and not really know what to do next if the results are not perfect such as use less polish, move machine slower, break down polish more, shrink work area, use a different polish, change pad selection, do another pass, etc so in net evaluate the results which is key. This comes with experience.
 
so your recommending me to give the wolfgang twins a try? only reason I kind of like to stick with meguiars... if I run out of something I can just run down to walmart, or autozone or something and pickup whatever i ran out of. I really hate ordering things online.

After reading all your posts, and getting a feel for your experience in context of what you're trying to do, (learn how to machine polish a black car with a Flex 3401 for the first time), I'm trying to make things as easy as I can and at the same time ensure that you'll be successful.

If you read enough threads about M105 you'll find that a lot of people struggle buffing with it and removing it, if you're new to machine polishing this might not be the best first approach.

Many people post their experience with Ultimate Compound is easier than M105, so if you want to go with Meguiar's then you might want to go with UC and M205.

Wolfgang products are pretty much fool-proof or Bubba-Proof and as the links I shared with you show people new to machine polishing easily find success using them on their car's paint.

The Total Swirl Remover will tackle most swirls and scratches that the majority of "Enthusiast Detailers" come up against and as I posted... you can't help but get good results as long as you work smart.

I wrote an article that ranks electric polishers by how easy they are to use, the term I used was,

Ease of Use Ranking

Here's the article from my article list,


New to Machine Polishing?

How to choose the right polisher for your detailing project <-- This one

New - Video: How to pick the right polisher


Excerpt...

Flex 3401 - Forced Rotation Random Orbital Polisher

Ease of Use Ranking: 3

The Flex 3401 is referred to as a Hybrid Polisher because it's unique among the more well-known polishers in that it is a forced rotation dual action polisher.

What this means is that the buffing head oscillates at the same time it's rotating which is what the above Dual Action Polishers do except that this unit is uses a direct drive mechanical action which forces the pad to both rotate and oscillate with no allowance for slippage.

This gives this tool most of the power associated with direct drive rotary buffers but the safety of a dual action polisher in that you can't heat up the paint and burn through it and you also can't instill swirls as long as you use pads and products recommended for use with dual action polishers.

These tools are like a bridge between a dual action polisher and a rotary buffer.

The learning curve for mastering a polisher like this is a little steeper than the learning curve for a dual action polisher if you're new to machine polishing. If you're an experienced with a dual action polisher it a very easy tool to advanced to and master and if you're a seasoned craftsman with a rotary buffer it will take you about 5 minutes to learn the differences in how this tool handles as compared to a rotary buffer.


400_RotaryBufferSpindle009.jpg
400_RotaryBufferSpindle010.jpg





These polishers are great for,
  • People new to machine polishing but consider themselves quick learners with better than average upper body strength. It's not that they require more muscle to operate it just that they require that a new operator pay more attention to the task at hand.
  • People looking for a safe, but more powerful polisher as compared to a Traditional Orbital Buffer
  • People who only take care of their own car or their family's cars.
  • Anyone wanting to start a part-time or full-time detailing business
  • Anyone with a detailing business that wants to add a multi-purpose tool to their detailing arsenal.
  • People that work in body shops looking for a tool to insure swirl free finish.
  • Boat owners looking for a better way to maintain their boat
  • RV owners looking for a better and faster way to maintain their RVs
  • Airplane owners looking for a safer, faster way to maintain their airplane's finish
This is a tool that offers a lot more correction ability than a dual action polisher or a Cyclo Polisher but its operation is quite a bit different than the how a dual action polisher feels or a Cyclo Polisher feels when operating one.

If you ever have a chance to test drive one of these polishers by using a friends or attending a class or seminar where they have one you can test out, definitely give it a try. The majority of people that take the plunge and purchase one of these types of polishers become loyal fans of this tool and strong proponents for it and are always willing to share their experience on how to best use it on discussion forums.


So I'm guessing you bought your Flex 3401 before joining this forum and asking questions so I'm doing my best to bring you up to speed on your purchase.

It's possible the paint on your Audi will be the easiest paint to polish in the world with any tool pad and product, you'll find out when you push away from the keyboard and go out into the garage and bring the polisher down onto the paint.

If you want to keep it simple, get some UC and some SwirlX or Ultimate Polish and after you've washed or wiped your car clean, (always work clean), lay down a strip of painter's tape on the hood or trunk lid and do a few section passes and then wipe off the residue and inspect the results and let us know how it goes.

I always recommend using a Tape-Line when doing your testing as it will make it very easy for your eyes to detect changes, which usually mean improvements in the test area and gauge how effectively your pads, products, tool and techniques are working on this particular paint system.


TapeLine02.jpg




Also, what DA should I go with for 4 inch pads? I

Griot's or PC

Griot's has the most power, PC has the time-proven track record of long life and reliability.

The Griot's is basically like a safe version of a rotary buffer, you really can't stop the pad from spinning using common sense pressure, this means it offers a lot of power to remove swirls and scratches while still offering the safety of a tool with a Free Floating Spindle Assembly.

The Free Floating Spindle Assembly - The Story Behind The Story...



Pushing down as hard as I can




That's the story behind the story as to why Dual Action Polishers like the Porter Cable 7424XP, the Meguiar's G110v2 and the Griot's Garage ROP have become so popular.




How close are you to Florida?

We have detailing classes coming up in July... see some of the comments in this thread...

Pictures & Comments from May 14th, 2011 Saturday Detailing 101


Our next Detailing 101 and 102 Classes will be held on Saturday, July 9th and Sunday, July 10th, so schedule accordingly and I guarantee you these will be a lot of fun plus a great learning experience...

Click here to sign-up for July 9th Detailing 101

Click here to sign-up for July 10th Detailing 102


:xyxthumbs:
 
so your recommending me to give the wolfgang twins a try? only reason I kind of like to stick with meguiars... if I run out of something I can just run down to walmart, or autozone or something and pickup whatever i ran out of. I really hate ordering things online. anyways. So instead of what i mentioned earlier about the 4 polishs from meguiars you think I should stick with this wolfgang twins?

The reason im asking which one you think i should stick with is, because no matter what the product, someone has pictures of it doing absolutely incredible things... so in the end everything seems like it can do the job. I just dont want to get stuck in the middle of something and just CANNOT get rid of the swirls or whatever that is left on my vehicle. i had just read alot of good reviews on the 105/205 system so i thought adding a few in the middle polishes would end up working out good.

Also, what DA should I go with for 4 inch pads? I was originally going to get the 3" Griots... but someone mentioned that it was under powered so I canceled the order. should I just get the regular 6inch griot and get the 3.5" backing plate and 4inch pads? and then the crazy question of what pads do i need to get...

I have a 2010 A5 that was probably produced on the same line as your S5 (yes, I envy your engine!). Although mine is deep sea blue metallic and there could be some minor differences in paint, maybe my experience will be helpful in addition to everybody else's posts.

I use the PC 7424XP with the Wolfgang twins. I've also used Menzerna SIP & PO85RD, and the new Pinnacle swirl remover & finishing polish. All of those are extremely easy to work with, therefore, even though there are a lot of people who only use M105/M205, I have had no need to try them.

Here's what I know about MY paint; it hazes extremely easy. Meaning, if you use the wrong combination of product, pad, & process, you will know it quickly because the surface will look milky. If the swirls are pretty bad, then I would use the Orange Lake Country Flat pad with the Wolfgang Swirl Remover or Menzerna SIP. For technique, follow what Mike posted to the letter - your car is not very forgiving. Definitely do a test spot (I recommend the hood between the moonroof and back window - it's flat but not easy to see if you mess up) and lay down a tape line so you can compare your before and after. From the times that I've used the Flex 3401, the main thing I'd say to watch for is keeping the pad flat to the surface of the car. If you don't have it flat, it will want to "walk" and you can quickly do some damage that someone else will have to fix. After about 5 section passes with the orange pad, inspect it with a swirl finder light, direct sunlight, or halogen garage light to see if the majority of the swirls were removed. Honestly, the car would have to be in terrible shape if Wolfgang TSR/Menzerna SIP on an orange pad with the Flex doesn't get the majority of the swirls/scratches out. At this point, it's okay if it looks a little hazy. Next, switch to the Finishing Polish/PO85RD with a white pad and use the same technique with a slightly slower speed. Then remove the tape and compare the spot you worked on to the original. Once you get the idea of the amount of product, number of passes, and speed, it's time to finish out the car. My preference is to section off the car and do both steps. I have more natural stopping points. I compound then polish the hood, then I compound and polish the front fenders. Then I move to the doors, etc, etc. That's just me, though. Other tips: make sure you have product well distributed on the surface of the pad, and make sure that you clean the pad often. DO NOT let your sections get bigger than 2' x 2', and be careful to GENTLY use a clean microfiber to wipe off the spent polish after doing a section.

The good news is that your car is very easy to buff out once you get your process dialed in. It doesn't need much taping; for the most part the exterior is either paint or glass. Also, if you have the flex, you probably don't really need the 4" pads. The only place I use them is on the top of the back bumper where the trunk causes water spots. With the forced rotation on the 3401, you could probably use 5.5" pads everywhere.

As for not getting things online. I understand, but AG is very easy to buy from. It's very nice to just place an order and it arrives on your doorstep in a few days. Plus, if you have ANY problem, they will do everything possible to help you out. You can't find better customer service anywhere.

Oh yeah, I'll add one more thing. If you give up and want to buy some time to read and practice on your wife's car before attempting your own, I'll also recommend getting some Poorboy's Black Hole. It's just a glaze that will fill, or hide, most of the swirls. It's easy to apply and looks very good. Just make sure to put a sealant or wax over it because it will wash off pretty easily.

Hope something in here was helpful! Good Luck!!! :buffing:
 
thank you very much for all the help and kind words. I am taking a little bit from everyone and will probably try to see if I can get something to work for me.

I will definitely try to work on my wifes daily, minicooper S first, as well as my inlaws 11 year old black BMW that is beat to hell and has been automatic washed for 11 years. those should be fun and I wont feel bad if I screw up. Will use those to try and get my technique correct.

i think ive ordered enough crap, and for the rest of the week ill just watch some videos and hope for the best!!! thx guys!! ill definitely post how this whole experience goes ^^
 
We're already looking forward to reading about your success...

  • Set things up so everything is clean and you have everything you need.
  • Do your test spot first using a tape line and just work on one side and then check your results.

Doing a Test Spot using a Flex 3401
[video=youtube_share;3CtUaI_8HhE&hd=1] - Performing a "Test Spot" to the paint on a 1957 Chevrolet Belair[/video]

  • Hold the pad flat to the surface, use a slow arm speed, that means move the polisher fairly slow over the surface
  • Overlap your passes by 50%
  • Use a front to back pattern and the a side to side patten
  • Don't buff to a dry buff, you should always see a wet film on the paint as you're buffing
  • Use the Section Pass Technique
Here's how to do a "Section Pass" when trying to remove swirls, scratches and other below surface paint defects.

How to do a Section Pass
[video=youtube_share;Q70g83mnTn4&hd=1] - How to do a "Section Pass" with a Porter Cable 7424XP[/video]



When talking about machine polishing on discussion forums or even in detailing classes, the below questions always comes up,
  • What's a pass?
  • How many passes do I make?
  • What's a section pass?


The definition of a pass
There are two definitions of the word pass as it relates to machine polishing with any type of machine.


Single Pass
A single pass is just that. It's when you move the polisher from one side of the section you're buffing to the other side of the section you're buffing. That's a single pass.


Section Pass
A section pass is when you move the polisher back and forth, or front to back with enough single overlapping passes to cover the entire section one time. That's a section pass.

In most cases if you're removing any substantial below surface defects you're going to make 6-8 section passes to the section you’re working before you either feel comfortable you've removed the defects or you're at the end of the buffing cycle for the product you're using.


Buffing Cycle
The buffing cycle is the amount of time you are able to work the product before the abrasives have broken down, (if you’re using a product that uses diminishing abrasives), and/or the product begins to dry and you lose the lubricating features of the product. Different products have different buffing cycles depending upon the type of abrasives used in the formula and the different ingredients used to suspend the abrasives and provide lubrication.


And most of all.... if you run into any issues at all, come back here to the forum and post what you're experiencing and everyone here will do their best to tweak your technique and see you through to success...


Before you know it, your friends, family members and co-workers will be paying you to buff out their cars...

:xyxthumbs:
 
Thank you very much for the encouraging words. I am not really doing this as a job, more of just a weekend hobby to eat up some of my time.

just wanted to mention that I ended up buying the Meguiars D300 with the MF cutting pads. Reason being is some of the cars that ill be doing is REALLY bad... and it seemed from waht i have read this is pretty easy to use?

then i bought the Menzerna finishing polish along with a 6 pack of white pads. Curiuos, can I use the white pads to also apply my wax? or should I go with something softer? I got the menzerna cause i always wanted to use their compound for some wierd reason so i figured ill use the polish first then ill peice it together.

reason why I didnt get the entire set of the MF DA system... i dont really appreciate that they decided to put the wax in the polish? i think it kind of takes away options of using your own, using a sealant etc etc etc so i decided to peice some peices together.

thx everyone for the help!!! btw the main reason i stayed away from the wolfgang twins... the hell that laura had with that black BMW made me worried about being stuck on a panel for like 10 hours. Anyways wish me luck guys!!! and all im doing these days is watching films of you Mike!!! haha
 
thx everyone for the help!!! btw the main reason i stayed away from the wolfgang twins... the hell that laura had with that black BMW made me worried about being stuck on a panel for like 10 hours.

:laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing: ...and thus you should understand why I said to keep your pad clean and your section size small!!!! Had I done that, it would have gone faster. Also keep in mind you'll be using a Flex instead of a PC; that will make a difference as well.

I haven't tried the new MF system, but I'll admit to being curious. I heard Jason Rose from Meguiars talk about it at Detail Fest this year, and there are a couple of things about it that impressed me. I'm just a weekend hobbiest; my real job is a process improvement engineer, so as pro-detailers see swirls everywhere they look, I see inefficiencies everywhere I go. While Jason was talking about the MF system, I couldn't help but notice how it addresses certain inefficient aspects of the buffing process. It is designed to lessen the time your pad is OFF the paint, as well as lessen the time your pad is ON the paint. Thus, they put the wax in the polish so you don't have to go over the car yet another time to apply it. For you and me, time doesn't mean the same thing as it does to those guys who do this for a living. We have the liberty to use whatever wax we want.

One final comment, I wouldn't use the white pad to apply the wax, especially on your car. I'd go with something softer - the grey is what I used...before finding Optimum Car Wax. Now, that's all I use. It's so easy, I love it.
 
hmmmmz optimum car wax? I wonder if I should use that ontop of liquid glass. seems not many people use that stuff on this website xD
 
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