In regards to least aggressive polishes/pads first...

[sensi09]

Yellow pads have their place, but they are the most aggressive foam pad in the LC range. What we have been trying to suggest here, as the thread title implies is the least aggressive approach.

So far an orange pad has not been tried with either UC or M105 so I think it maybe a little premature to suggest a yellow pad.

A yellow pad may be required, but the correct approach especially for a new user is not to rush it and remove unnecessary amounts of paint. The use of a yellow pad will more than likely mar the paint especially if this is indeed soft paint.

I'm all for the least aggressive approach, but you would you say that M105 with an orange pad is less aggressive than wolfgang TSR with a yellow pad?

 

[JetBlackBMW]

Autogeek Swirl Removers & Compounds Comparison Chart

http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum...s-order-smat-products-might-surprise-you.html


Seems there is some bad info in this thread. Please refer to these charts.

Seems like you are getting too technical. Keep It Simple Simon..KISS as Mike Phillips has said!

If the WG TSR didn't remove all the Swirls and you ordered 105.......stick with the 105/205 "system" on a test spot. Then evaluate your results from there..........

When it comes to putting a buffing machine for someone who does not have that much experience with a Flex 3401 on an expensive car I do not think my questions are too technical. I am getting good advice here and I am learning from other memebers.

Mike Phillips reccomended the Wolf Gang as a KISS and its not working so I need to find out why its not working without getting something that is too strong....I need to get into more detail to see what will work without finding out the hard way and damaging the paint on my car.

I hope your post does not discourage them from giving me advice!

 

[gmck]

I'm all for the least aggressive approach, but you would you say that M105 with an orange pad is less aggressive than wolfgang TSR with a yellow pad?

According to the notes on the web site here WTSR is capable of removing 2000 grit marks. On the chart in this thread it is somewhat equivalent to Menzerna Super Intense Polish (P083). What the real differences are between WTSR and the real Menzerna product I have no idea for I’ve never used WTSR or attempted to find out the differences. The Menzerna chart rates P083 as having a cut of 3.8 which makes it a reasonably aggressive compound.

However that is nowhere near as aggressive at M105 which is capable of removing 1200 grit marks. Therefore if M105/Orange works so well as most people here will attest I would have to conclude that WTSR on yellow would be quite an unusual combo. Of course that is not to say it wouldn’t work on certain paints. However it (P083/yellow) is not a combo that I would normally think of trying.

I've certainly used a yellow pad in various situations. One I remember well was a Mazda vehicle that was really badly oxidized. This was one occasion when M105/Orange was absolutely hopeless. In fact, if it was the first vehicle you had ever used M105 then I guess you’d never ever try M105 again, that’s how bad it was. On that particular vehicle I ended up using PowerGloss P0S34 on yellow which removed all the oxidation but left a pretty bad haze which obviously then required another couple of steps to fully correct. I remember trying M105/Orange again after the oxidation was removed and it still wouldn’t behave, but UC/Orange did. That is a hard one to figure out because UC is meant to be derived from M105. However, I think it proves the point, that you do need at least a number of compounds/polishes on hand from different manufacturers because you will eventually come across some vehicle where your favourite combo just doesn’t work.

 

[sensi09]

I've used SIP with a yellow pad a few times and thought it worked well. I figure if you can use SIP with an orange or white pad, why not yellow as well.

Don't have too much experience, but have read that many products stronger than SIP do not work that well with a PC. So instead of moving to a stronger product, I used a yellow pad instead. Since then, I typically use UC over SIP if I need something stronger. Or UC in general actually for ease of use.

 

[Dr Oldz]

When it comes to putting a buffing machine for someone who does not have that much experience with a Flex 3401 on an expensive car I do not think my questions are too technical. I am getting good advice here and I am learning from other memebers.

Mike Phillips reccomended the Wolf Gang as a KISS and its not working so I need to find out why its not working without getting something that is too strong....I need to get into more detail to see what will work without finding out the hard way and damaging the paint on my car.

I hope your post does not discourage them from giving me advice!

By too technical, I meant at the amount of products thrown out at you. I feel that I gave you good advise, take it or leave it .I hope ppl keep posting and help you as I can't imagine why some wouldn't post because of my post. As for me I'll just shut up now!rops:

 

[JetBlackBMW]

By too technical, I meant at the amount of products thrown out at you. I feel that I gave you good advise, take it or leave it .I hope ppl keep posting and help you as I can't imagine why some wouldn't post because of my post. As for me I'll just shut up now!rops:

You did give me good advice, never said you didn't. The only other advice in the post that I probably will not follow is using a yellow pad by machine on the paint. I am going to go as far as the orange pad with 105....although I may try a 4" yellow pad by hand with a polishing pal if I need to on a few isolated stratches. I probably am ordering too many products, but thats okay I want to have a few options to try when I do the detail.

The 105 and Ultimate Compound will be here this week. I ordering Meg Scratch X 2.0, 205 and PO85RD today.

So I will have the Wolf Gang twins and Meguiars 105, Ultimate Compound, Scratch X 2.0, and 205 and PO87MC and PO85RDD to finish (will try both on different spots to see if I can notice a difference) as a final polish for jeweling.

I will let everyone know how I make out. rops:

 

[JetBlackBMW]

What pad would you say is slightly more aggressive than the LC Flat Orange foam pad to be used with the Flex 3401 on soft jet black paint? Want to try a pad with a little more cut on a few spots and do not want to use the LC Yellow or Surbuf pads as I heard that they can produce a lot of hazing and micromarring on softer paints.

Trying to decide between HT Cyan, PFW, and the new Meguiars Microfiber DA cutting pad. Will be using this pad with Meguiars 105 and/or UC. Of the three pads mentioned, does anyone know which will work the best on the Flex 3401 and cause the least amount of hazing and micromarring with Meguiars UC on soft paint?

How do they finish compared to the orange pad? I will be following up with a finer polish and finer pad after, but I just want to have as little hazing and micromarring as possible from this first step.

 

[gmck]

What pad would you say is slightly more aggressive than the LC Flat Orange foam pad

The yellow pad is the next aggressive LC pad to the orange pad. However you haven’t as yet stated how you’ve gone after receiving the M105 and using it with the orange pad. M105 is far more aggressive than UC, it will therefore easily remove all your swirls and most of the scratches without the need to go to a yellow pad. It will also finish off extremely well. Before you do anything else let’s hear about how you go/went with M105 on orange.


I tend to use a yellow pad with M105 only when chasing out very difficult scratches. I also usually only use a 3” or 4" pad via rotary when doing that sort of correction. It really depends on how much clear coat is left and since you are new to polishing I wouldn’t recommend that you go chasing out every last scratch until you have a better feel and more experience for what you are attempting to do.


You said your BM was a 2001 model. Have you owned it since new? How many times has it been compounded during its 10 years? If you don’t know the answer to the last question, then before chasing down every last scratch I’d be checking the thickness of the remaining clear coat with a paint gauge. You can obviously forgo that if you are prepared to repaint any panels where you might actually go through the CC in chasing down those scratches. But 10 year paint is usually just that and is normally a lot thinner than one might first think. Caution!!!

Trying to decide between HT Cyan, PFW, and the new Meguiars Microfiber DA cutting pad.

With that statement I’m tending to think that you are over thinking the problem. If you’ve got orange and yellow pads then you are fine. The Cyan pad has about as much cut as the orange, so probably nothing gained there. If the orange pad won’t do it then the Cyan won’t either. Jumping to PFW is a bit of jump if you haven’t tried it before. You really need a test panel to experiment like that, not the bonnet or boot of your BM. I haven’t used the MF DA pad so I can’t comment, but from reading about it, it seems to be designed for their compound that has less cut than M105, therefore it wouldn’t be my first choice and to top that off it has been reported numerous times that the MF pads don’t work well with your Flex.

I just want to have as little hazing and micromarring as possible from this first step.

Again I think you are over thinking it. If you do get any hazing then it will be very easily removed with a follow up of Menz P0203S. I think, I’ve already said it before in this thread, all BMW paint just loves P0203S after M105. The clarity it restores to the paint is exceptional, so a small amount of haze, if M105 does leave any, should be the least of your concerns. From what you have already said, (although I’d like your confirmation after M105/orange) I doubt very much you actually have soft paint. Obviously, it depends on where your BM was built, as different plants use different paints for local conditions but the black BMs of your vintage, where I am, didn’t have soft clears. Soft clears cut like butter, but from what you have already stated I’m guessing that your CC is typical BMW - reasonably hard.

 

[JetBlackBMW]

The yellow pad is the next aggressive LC pad to the orange pad. However you haven’t as yet stated how you’ve gone after receiving the M105 and using it with the orange pad. M105 is far more aggressive than UC, it will therefore easily remove all your swirls and most of the scratches without the need to go to a yellow pad. It will also finish off extremely well. Before you do anything else let’s hear about how you go/went with M105 on orange.

I did receive the 105 and I tried that with an white pad on another test spot. I did see an improvement but there were still swirls and light scratches so I tried the 105 with an orange pad on another test spot (about 15"x15"). I noticed a further improvement in the reduction in swirls with the orange pad and 105. I then followed up with several steps to try to get the best finish possible: next I used the white pad with 205 and then grey pad with FPII (PO87MC) and finally blue pad with 85rd. I wiped down with Menzerna Top Inspection after each step and looked at the test sport in direct sunlight and the test spot is not perfect....I can still see some light random swirls. Given the fact that I finished off as gently as possible, I have to assume that the orange pad and 105 did not get eveything out - I made about 6 passes with firm pressure on speed 6 with the FLEX.

I then tried another test spot with a less aggressive pad/polish to see if the orange pad and 105 was creating new swirls. On this test spot I used a white pad with UC, followed by 205 on a white pad, followed by FPII (PO87MC) on a grey pad, and finally 85rd with a blue pad. Looked at this test spot in direct sunlight and compared it to the orange pad/105 test spot. The orange pad/105 clearly removed more defects and that area looks smoother, however I still see the same random light swirls on both sections.

I know that Menzerna polishes are diminishing abraisives and require longer working times than the Meguiars 105/UC/and 205 so I made sure that I broke down the Menzerna polishes as I made about 12 passes and lightened up the pressure and speed for several final passes.


I tend to use a yellow pad with M105 only when chasing out very difficult scratches. I also usually only use a 3” or 4" pad via rotary when doing that sort of correction. It really depends on how much clear coat is left and since you are new to polishing I wouldn’t recommend that you go chasing out every last scratch until you have a better feel and more experience for what you are attempting to do.


You said your BM was a 2001 model. Have you owned it since new? How many times has it been compounded during its 10 years? If you don’t know the answer to the last question, then before chasing down every last scratch I’d be checking the thickness of the remaining clear coat with a paint gauge. You can obviously forgo that if you are prepared to repaint any panels where you might actually go through the CC in chasing down those scratches. But 10 year paint is usually just that and is normally a lot thinner than one might first think. Caution!!!

Car has 70K miles. I have owned the car since 2006, bought it with 20k miles. It has not been machine polished since I have had the car.

With that statement I’m tending to think that you are over thinking the problem. If you’ve got orange and yellow pads then you are fine. The Cyan pad has about as much cut as the orange, so probably nothing gained there. If the orange pad won’t do it then the Cyan won’t either. Jumping to PFW is a bit of jump if you haven’t tried it before. You really need a test panel to experiment like that, not the bonnet or boot of your BM. I haven’t used the MF DA pad so I can’t comment, but from reading about it, it seems to be designed for their compound that has less cut than M105, therefore it wouldn’t be my first choice and to top that off it has been reported numerous times that the MF pads don’t work well with your Flex.

Since the test spot after the orange pad and 105 could still be improved, I thought I would need a pad with slightly more cut than the orange pad.


Again I think you are over thinking it. If you do get any hazing then it will be very easily removed with a follow up of Menz P0203S. I think, I’ve already said it before in this thread, all BMW paint just loves P0203S after M105. The clarity it restores to the paint is exceptional, so a small amount of haze, if M105 does leave any, should be the least of your concerns. From what you have already said, (although I’d like your confirmation after M105/orange) I doubt very much you actually have soft paint.

I have heard that jet black bmw's have very soft paint and that all other colors, even other shades of black, have a hard clear coat. I know for sure that it is jet black. I do think the paint is soft because I can easily marr the paint with a high quality microber towel (dragon fiber microfiber from PAC) if I rub too hard.

Obviously, it depends on where your BM was built, as different plants use different paints for local conditions but the black BMs of your vintage, where I am, didn’t have soft clears. Soft clears cut like butter, but from what you have already stated I’m guessing that your CC is typical BMW - reasonably hard.

responses above...

 

[gmck]

The orange pad/105 clearly removed more defects and that area looks smoother

Well that should clear up the decision about which compound to use. It is what I would have expected as M105 is considerably more aggressive than Ultimate Compound.
I think what you need to do now with M105/orange is to make more passes. Don’t expect every swirl/scratch to disappear with just one application. Before reloading with more product make sure you run your pad brush across the face of the pad to ensure that your pad is clean. I’d also reduce the area to 12” x 12”, apply more pressure (really compress the pad) and really slow down your arm speed. Note - a properly primed (KBM) orange pad with M105 won’t introduce more swirls. If that sees an improvement then keep on applying more M105 until you are satisfied that the defects have been removed. If no further improvement then it is time to consider moving on to a yellow pad. However before doing that, maybe you should try your Cyan pad. There is another thread here “I feel the LC orange pad doesn't have...” where one guy claimed that M105/Cyan improved his finish as compared to M105/Orange. You already have that pad so it can’t hurt to try.

What we really need now from you are pics. When you find the cyan pad answer in that thread you will see a perfect example of a 50/50 shot. If you can get the same thing of your test spot all of us here would have a lot better understanding of how you are progressing.

I do think the paint is soft because I can easily marr the paint with a high quality microber towel (dragon fiber microfiber from PAC) if I rub too hard.

I’m not sure how much you should make of that. I have the same MFs and I can marr the paint on my blue BM with them and my vehicle certainly doesn’t have soft paint. If M105/orange is struggling to remove swirls in your paint, it would suggest that your paint is not all that soft.

If you are having difficulty removing polish residues, you may like to try the following. Instead on wiping off the residue with your Dragon MF, soak your MF into a bucket of warm water and then gently wash off the residue. Since both the Menz polishes and the M105 are water soluble, it will allow you to wipe away the residue without any harsh rubbing. Once the residue has been removed, rinse the MF in the same bucket and wring it out and then wipe down gently with the damp MF. Of course the only hassle is that you then need another MF to completely dry the surface before you continue polishing.

You don’t see this technique discussed much, but it works really well and of course has the other advantage of prolonging the life of your MFs. You do need to regularly keep changing the water in your bucket.

 

[JetBlackBMW]

Well that should clear up the decision about which compound to use. It is what I would have expected as M105 is considerably more aggressive than Ultimate Compound.
I think what you need to do now with M105/orange is to make more passes. Don’t expect every swirl/scratch to disappear with just one application.


I wrote a more detailed response yesterday and somehow it got deleted and did not post so I will try again - I tried 105 with a primed orange pad again on the same test spot and made 6 passes with really firm pressure and slow arm speed and I did not see any improvement in the lights swirls and scratches. What was still showing looked like someone took a wire brush and rubbed the paint as they looked like numerous scratches that were close together and about 2 to 3 inches. These scratches were not reallly on any of the other test spots that I tried other products on. I had a feeling that the orange pad may be the problem so I went over this spot with 205 on a white pad and again, there was not really any improvement. I then tried Wolf Gang Total Swirl Remover (almost like Menzerna 203 or IP) on a white pad and the finish came out much better. Those very light scratches and swirls were almost completely gone. This shows that the orange pad is to rough for my paint and that the 205 was not a strong enough polish to remove the scrathces caused by the orange pad. I then split this test spot into 2 sections and tried 205 on a grey pad on one part and Wolf Gang Finishing Glaze on a grey pad on the other part. Both sections looked even better (just a bit more glossy) but I could not really tell a difference between the 205 on a grey pad and the FG on a grey pad. I then used 85rd with a blue pad on the spot where I used the 205 on a grey pad and I could not see any improvement is gloss, if anything, I think the 85rd took away a little something from the paint. It now looked like the spot with the FG looked better than the spot with 85rd. Now I know a lot of people use 85rd to jewel the paint for a last step polish so I need to go back and try the 85rd again - maybe on a grey pad to see if there is a chance that the blue pad could not break the polish down - or maybe I did not use enough 85rd polish on the pad as it did seem to dry out rather quickly and I may be ended up dry buffing it, but I know that you are supposed to work it for a fairly long time. So it just did not seem that I was able to work it long enough so I will go back and try it again with more polish this time and some extra pad conditioning spray to keep the pad well lubricated so it does not dry out as quickly. The surface it still not perfect, there are still some light scratches so I need to figure out which product on which pad I need to work more. Now the 105 on the orange pad did remove some of the deeper swirls and defects, but it did create some new swirls and scratches that had to be taken out with the WG TSR on a white pad.

So to confirm that the orange pad is too rough on my paint, I now tried another test spot with the orange pad and the WG TSR on an orange pad and while it did remove some defects (but not as many as 105 on an orange pad) it did create some new swirls and scratches. So I went over this with 105 on a white pad and it looked better. This confirmed that the orange pad causes new swirls and scratches on my paint. The 105 on a white pad does take away some defects (but not as many as 105 on an orange pad) and it does not create any new swirls and scratches. So now the question is: do I use 105 with an orange pad to remove deeper defects and go over the new swirls and scratches with 105 on an white pad or do I only go as far as 105 on a white pad and make multiple, multiple applications to slowly remove the defects without creating any new swirls or scratches? The only other thing I can think of is to maybe try a PFW pad and see if that pad creates any new swirls and scratches. The cyan wont work becasue it is rougher than the orange pad so that will also create new swirls and scratches on this soft paint.

I pretty much used the whole trunk lid for test spots and I am now onto the rear part of the roof. I still have not figured out the exact combo to use yet so I need to figure this out soon.

 

[gmck]

First off, I think you are going about this the right way. Your steps and decisions are logical so I can’t really fault that. It does appear from your results that that the orange pads are too coarse for your paint. However I’m surprised because I’ve used M105/orange on plenty of soft paints successfully. Before we write off the orange pad I’d like to check with you about how clean you are working?

How many times have you washed out the orange pads since you started on these test spots? How many of your orange pads have you used? Have you tied re claying the trunk lid since you started polishing? Are you cleaning the pad after each pass? In my experience I’ve never seen M105/orange introduce new scratches and more swirls. A too coarse a pad may dull the paint, but should not introduce new scratches unless some debris is being caught in the pad. Of course dull the paint does mean new scratches, but they are extremely fine scratches, not like the ones you are describing. The softer the paint, the cleaner you have to work.

One thing you may like to try is eliminate some of the variables and to gain valuable experience with M105/orange by temporarily swapping to another vehicle with harder paint. Do a test spot on that vehicle with M105/orange and M205/white just so that you then know what to expect of a good result.

I then tried Wolf Gang Total Swirl Remover (almost like Menzerna 203 or IP) on a white pad and the finish came out much better.

As compared to M205/white that would be expected as M205 is a finishing polish with very little cut. According to the Autogeek chart WGTSR is equivalent to Menz P0203S which is what I would normally use after M105 to improve the clarity of the paint. It would appear that WGTSR/white is going to be a good combination on your vehicle after you remove all the scratches and swirls.

do I use 105 with an orange pad to remove deeper defects and go over the new swirls and scratches with 105 on an white pad or do I only go as far as 105 on a white pad and make multiple, multiple applications to slowly remove the defects without creating any new swirls or scratches?

If M105/white is gradually removing the orange inflicted swirls then you could probably try M105/green (coarse/compound pad). Your green pad comes between orange and white, so it would most likely speed up the process without inflicting further swirls/scratches. One way or another you have to get rid of the original defects, so if M105/green won’t do it, then you will need to use M105 progressively – orange, green and then white.

Once you do get rid of the defects then WGTSR (P0203S) on white or maybe even green (polishing) should restore the clarity. Treat that as an intermediate step before you attempt to get the final super glossy finish.

Once done with that step, then use your Wolfgang Finishing Glaze 3.0 green (polishing) or black/gray). From the chart, WGFG is the equivalent of P0106 so that will give you the same gloss level as P085RD.

Rather than repeat it here, I mentioned some tips about P085RD in your other thread. I have on some occasions found P085RD difficult to use with a DA, so if WGFG is working for you, I would stick with that. There really isn’t much difference between the two other than P0106 (WGFG) has a little more cut. Pressure, not so much speed, plays an important role with either of them especially on softer paint.

If you would like to take it a step further, you could consider skipping P085RD (if your paint doesn’t like it) and use Poli-Seal instead after WGFG. I tend to think of Poli-Seal as more of a paint cleaner than a polish, but you can get very good results using pads from white down to red. The label states clean, polish and seal. That makes it extremely versatile for final finishing and of course it is the ultimate prep before Opti-Coating.

I’d only be guessing if I made a comment about PFW working on a DA or a Flex as I only use PFW with a rotary. My guess is it wouldn’t be suitable for a Flex, but I’ll leave it to others to comment on their experience.