In regards to least aggressive polishes/pads first...

I've read that the menzerna swirl remover actually is PO85RD with more lubrication. Pretty sure I read it here.
 
PO85RD is made my Menzerna. I think you mis typed, but I don't know what you meant. :)
 
I've read that the menzerna swirl remover actually is PO85RD with more lubrication. Pretty sure I read it here.
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If you are referring to the Wolfgang version, then that is exactly my point. Why re brand something as something else only to confuse people further. I certainly wouldn't class the real P085RD as a swirl remover though. 85RD is about the least abrasive polish out there, it is a fine finishing or jewelling polish.

I really can't imagine why anyone would want more lubrication in P085RD. You can work P085RD forever with DA. Not quite as long with a rotary but that makes sense as it was designed for rotary use.
 
My basic polishing advice (things said often but still need to learn for yourself)

1. Be sure to run the Flex at 5.5 or 6, use slow motions (1 to 2 in second) with Menzerna

2. Hold the pad flat against the paint (more important than a lot of pressure withe flex)

3. be sure to work the polish completely (usually more than you may believe), if you dry buff it you will figure that out how far you should be able to go (too much dust or caking). It is part of learning the limits.

4. use an "ample" amount of polish (see MP's definition) but it is less than you think (3 to 4 tabs, just be sure you can a basic coverage when you spread). Use minimum, spread, if not even very thin coat, add a dab more. It does not take much.

If you use too much, you will not get maximum correction initially and take even longer to break down all the polish. Be careful to not over prime the pad since this will make the first section even longer

5. Keep your pad clean - maybe after each use. If the paint has never been polished, the pads will get dirty quick so have plenty of pads. Dirty pads do not correct as well. You will get splotchy polish trails (not a nice creamy look) if the pad is dirty. Excess polish will clog up the pad as well.

6. Be ready to use an orange pad with a medium polish. If the orange pad does not work, time for a new polish/pad combo like UC / white if you think your technique is pretty good.

The good news is if you are not getting out the defects you are not removing that much paint so do not worry. It is when you remove the defects and then find a lot of marring is when you need to look at your process optimization.
 
gmck said:
I had heard that Wolfgang was meant to similar to Menzerna. Sort of begs the question why – for there is nothing un user friendly about Menz polishes. What was meant to be wrong with Menzerna in the first place? Seems more an American company marketing ploy than anything else. This chart might help you out some, to understand the Menzerna 1 - 5 cut ratings - Menzerna Polishing Compounds Products, menzerna polishes, menzerna car polish, menzerna nano polish, menzerna final polish, menzerna compound,

If SIP (P083Q – not available where I am) and IP (P091C) have failed to remove the swirls then I would guess the next step is M105/Orange as M105 is more aggressive than those two. You could try Power Gloss P0S34A which is their most aggressive, but it will leave a haze, which will have to be removed later. I prefer to use M105 on BMs because M105 will finish down far better than P0S34A. I’m sorry, but I also assumed your green pad was the polishing pad not the compounding pad. What I normally do with BMs is use M105 (orange) followed (after the swirls have been removed) by PO203S (orange or white) and then either P0106FF white or green (polishing) and/or 85RD using the green, black or blue pads. I’m a little loath to say it here, but I think there is far too much misinformation flying around about so called super soft black BM paint.

I’ve not used your Flex, but I would assume at 6 and firm pressure, it would virtually rip through anything as compared to the more gutless DAs going around. The only other thing I can suggest is very slow arm speed especially if you go with M105. Make sure you fully prime your orange pad (KBM method) when using M105. If you are hammering the one test spot, I’d also suggest a new test spot – say boot lid or bonnet, not a vertical panel. Are the swirls bad washing induced swirls or are they from the “swirlamatic” washing machine? Or are the swirls really scratches and not swirls? Are the defects consistent all over the vehicle or just confined to one area? Do you have any pictures of the defects to post?

Is there any improvement in the area that you have already compounded? What sort of experience have you had with your Flex? Have you successfully eliminated swirls in other vehicles? How large is the area of your test spot? Try reducing it to about 12" x 12".

Do you also have smaller pads available? My apologies for all the questions, but the more feedback we have the more likely we can help you.
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Went with Wolf Gang due to autogeeks reccomendation and also thought Menzerna was primarily for hard clear coats. Maybe the marketing got me...however, since its made by menzerna then it should be a somewhat similar product.

Swirls are from hand washing (before I knew how to properly wash a car) and due the car having never been machine polished before- never went through "swirlmatic" car wash. And also, there are some light scratches that just barely catch a finger nail. Defects are not consistent in all places, some are worse in a few places. Sorry no pics right now. There was an improvement in the test spot, I just was not able to get all the swirls out, but I am still waiting for a second shipment of products which should be here soon. Also, I did not have any grey or blue pads to finish the Menzerna FP II with since I returned those pads. So I finished with a green polishing pad so maybe a lighter pad would have removed the very light swirls that were left in the test spot.

This is my first time using Flex or any machine polisher for that matter.....so I may have not worked the product long enough or went too fast. I just did not want to end up dry buffing so I stopped when it looked like it was getting dry. So it could be my technique too. I did use speed 6 though with firm pressure. There was one other test spot that had a scratch that I could not get out at all with the green coarse pad and the Wolf Gange Total Swirl Remover....I did not really see an improvement there - so I will need the 105 there in that small spot.

Test spot was about 15"x15". I did return the 6.5" pads (except for the 2 I used) and ordered 5.5" pads.

I am going to try the 3 or 4 step polish like you mentioned and any other feedback is appreciated as I am new to machine polishing - thanks
 
Bunky said:
My basic polishing advice (things said often but still need to learn for yourself)

1. Be sure to run the Flex at 5.5 or 6, use slow motions (1 to 2 in second) with Menzerna


I was moving faster than this as I thought I would burn the paint going slower, so I will move slower next time - good tip

2. Hold the pad flat against the paint (more important than a lot of pressure withe flex)


3. be sure to work the polish completely (usually more than you may believe), if you dry buff it you will figure that out how far you should be able to go (too much dust or caking). It is part of learning the limits.


I buffed about 12 passes until it looked just about dry but did not see any dust - does that mean I need to work it longer?This is a key point - how do you know when to stop buffing so you do not burn the paint?

4. use an "ample" amount of polish (see MP's definition) but it is less than you think (3 to 4 tabs, just be sure you can a basic coverage when you spread). Use minimum, spread, if not even very thin coat, add a dab more. It does not take much.
If you use too much, you will not get maximum correction initially and take even longer to break down all the polish. Be careful to not over prime the pad since this will make the first section even longer


5. Keep your pad clean - maybe after each use. If the paint has never been polished, the pads will get dirty quick so have plenty of pads. Dirty pads do not correct as well. You will get splotchy polish trails (not a nice creamy look) if the pad is dirty. Excess polish will clog up the pad as well.


How many pads would I need one detail? I ordered 2 orange, 1 green coarse, 3 white, 2 green polishing/finishing, 2 grey, and 2 blue (for jeweling)

6. Be ready to use an orange pad with a medium polish. If the orange pad does not work, time for a new polish/pad combo like UC / white if you think your technique is pretty good.


Will try this.

If I do get marring how can I get it out? With a finer polish and pad?


The good news is if you are not getting out the defects you are not removing that much paint so do not worry. It is when you remove the defects and then find a lot of marring is when you need to look at your process optimization.
Click to expand...


Thanks for your tips - see my response and questions above...
 
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Silverstone said:
I've read that the menzerna swirl remover actually is PO85RD with more lubrication. Pretty sure I read it here.
Click to expand...
Wolfgang finishing glaze is basically menzerna 106FA. That is what you read. Wolfgang total swirl remover is about the same as menzerna power finish 203.
 
Went with Wolf Gang due to autogeeks reccomendation and also thought Menzerna was primarily for hard clear coats. Maybe the marketing got me...however, since its made by menzerna then it should be a somewhat similar product.
Click to expand...
Ok, understandable as Wolfgang is their product. I just wish you were using real Menzerna polishes so we would know exactly what you are using. I suppose it is all part of the learning curve, so I’m sure you will find a use for the Wolfgang polishes in the future. The situation will become clearer when your M105 arrives.

Why did you return the 6.5” pads? I’m not sure about the following as I don’t own a Flex, but I’m sure Flex owners here will be able to confirm. The Flex comes standard with a 5.5” backing plate and therefore should be fitted with 6.5” pads. 5.5” pads would be too small for the 5.5” backing plate. As a general rule 6.5” pads go on a 6” BP and 5.5” pads on a 5” BP. The Flex is not as flexible as the other DAs with conventional backing plates in that until a couple of months ago it only had the one size backing plate which is 5.5”, therefore your pad size was limited to 6.5”. The Flex BP is not a conventional BP, nor can a conventional BP be fitted to it.

Normally to get more cut from a DA (unlike a rotary) it is the correct choice to reduce the BP and pad size, but I can’t see how that applies to a Flex XC 3401. I think returning the pads was a mistake and you will have to swap again to the 6.5” pads. If you fit the 5.5” pads to a 5.5” BP you will have no safety margin between pad and BP and if you accidently bump into something the BP will most likely damage whatever you hit.

Swirls are from hand washing (before I knew how to properly wash a car) and due the car having never been machine polished before- never went through "swirlmatic" car wash.
Click to expand...

So your swirls are not the normal swirls you can see in the many pictures you can view on this website. Swirls from the “swirlamatic” show a very consistent circular pattern (from the brushes). Bad technique hand washing normally leads to swirls with an inconsistent pattern. I’d suggest taking some pics and posting before you proceed further just so we can confirm what you are dealing with.

This is my first time using Flex or any machine polisher for that matter
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Since this is your first time with a polisher, it might be a good idea to take the possibility of “soft paint” out of the equation and get some experience on some other vehicle before you attempt to correct your BMW. Screw up on something that doesn’t matter so much, for I doubt you want to stuff up the BM. For future reference what is the year and model of the BM and what is the paint code. Your owner’s manual will tell you were the paint code is located on the vehicle.

Also, I did not have any grey or blue pads to finish the Menzerna FP II with since I returned those pads. So I finished with a green polishing pad so maybe a lighter pad would have removed the very light swirls that were left in the test spot.
Click to expand...

There is no point using Menzerna FP II (P085RD) until you have removed all the defects with the more aggressive polishes. 85RD is a very fine finishing polish which is not suitable for removing swirls. It is superb for finishing, but you are nowhere near the finishing stage yet. 85RD can be used with either green (polishing), black(gray) or blue pads (depending on the hardness/softness of the paint), so I’d suggest getting the gray and blue pads back because you will eventually need and want them.

And also, there are some light scratches that just barely catch a finger nail.
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If you can catch them with a finger nail then they are not light scratches. Scratches like that will need special attention with small 3” or 4” pads. They can be greatly improved with a larger pad, but depending on how deep can’t always be eliminated. I’d suggest forgetting about the scratches and concentrate on removing the swirls. You can always come back to the scratches after, when you have the technique and the correct polishes and pads right.

I just did not want to end up dry buffing so I stopped when it looked like it was getting dry. So it could be my technique too
Click to expand...

Typically Menz polishes start off as a wet film, as you work them, the film gradually becomes a translucent film. They are diminishing polishes and therefore the abrasive particles contained within the polish break down from large to smaller particles. When they have fully broken down the film becomes transparent. You can still keep polishing (with the finishing polishes) but it is rather pointless with the more aggressive polishes. They are done when it becomes transparent. Either the defects are gone at the point or you have to add more polish and do another pass.

Since you are new to polishers and polishing get in the habit of always working clean. This is especially important when compounding/polishing soft paint. Get in the habit of always cleaning your pad with a pad brush everytime you put the polisher down, before you add new product. It only takes a couple of seconds at low speed to run a pad brush across your pad and it guarantees you are always working clean.

From your description (but I’d still like to see your pics) it sounds as though you will be needing M105 over the whole car, not just parts of it. Since you are new to M105, I’d suggest getting on the Meguiars forum and reading up on M105. M105 seems to give new users fits, so be sure to fully understand how it works, because it works very differently to any of the Menz products. Unlike the Menz polishes, M105 and Ultimate Compound are non diminishing polishes, so the technique to use them is quite different. Look up SMAT and KBM method on their forum. If you have any further questions after you study how to use them ask away here. Just to give you some encouragement BMs just love M105.
 
Try using Meg's UC or M105, then follow with Meg's Ultimate polish or M205. These products use non-diminishing abrasives that DO NOT have to be broken down, so you don't have to wonder if you've done enough passes. You get the same amount of cut from start to finish. With WG or Menzerna, they use diminishing abrasives that DO need to be broken down. The only drawback of non-diminishing abrasives is they may not finish perfect on soft paint, but they still finish nicely. If you want a show car finish, you could then try Menzerna PO85rd as your last step. I try to use non-diminishing abrasives(Meg's, optimum) every single time. I'll only use Menzerna polishes if I absolutely have to.
 
Does no one recommend using yellow pads anymore. It seems that if a product with an orange pad doesn't work, they automatically jump to a different compound rather than trying a yellow pad.

Anyhow, the UC with orange should be the ticket. Works faster than the wolfgang and dusts less than both.
 
Does no one recommend using yellow pads anymore
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Yellow pads have their place, but they are the most aggressive foam pad in the LC range. What we have been trying to suggest here, as the thread title implies is the least aggressive approach.

So far an orange pad has not been tried with either UC or M105 so I think it maybe a little premature to suggest a yellow pad.

A yellow pad may be required, but the correct approach especially for a new user is not to rush it and remove unnecessary amounts of paint. The use of a yellow pad will more than likely mar the paint especially if this is indeed soft paint.
 
gmck said:
Ok, understandable as Wolfgang is their product. I just wish you were using real Menzerna polishes so we would know exactly what you are using. I suppose it is all part of the learning curve, so I’m sure you will find a use for the Wolfgang polishes in the future. The situation will become clearer when your M105 arrives.

Why did you return the 6.5” pads? I’m not sure about the following as I don’t own a Flex, but I’m sure Flex owners here will be able to confirm. The Flex comes standard with a 5.5” backing plate and therefore should be fitted with 6.5” pads. 5.5” pads would be too small for the 5.5” backing plate. As a general rule 6.5” pads go on a 6” BP and 5.5” pads on a 5” BP. The Flex is not as flexible as the other DAs with conventional backing plates in that until a couple of months ago it only had the one size backing plate which is 5.5”, therefore your pad size was limited to 6.5”. The Flex BP is not a conventional BP, nor can a conventional BP be fitted to it.

Normally to get more cut from a DA (unlike a rotary) it is the correct choice to reduce the BP and pad size, but I can’t see how that applies to a Flex XC 3401. I think returning the pads was a mistake and you will have to swap again to the 6.5” pads. If you fit the 5.5” pads to a 5.5” BP you will have no safety margin between pad and BP and if you accidently bump into something the BP will most likely damage whatever you hit.



So your swirls are not the normal swirls you can see in the many pictures you can view on this website. Swirls from the “swirlamatic” show a very consistent circular pattern (from the brushes). Bad technique hand washing normally leads to swirls with an inconsistent pattern. I’d suggest taking some pics and posting before you proceed further just so we can confirm what you are dealing with.



Since this is your first time with a polisher, it might be a good idea to take the possibility of “soft paint” out of the equation and get some experience on some other vehicle before you attempt to correct your BMW. Screw up on something that doesn’t matter so much, for I doubt you want to stuff up the BM. For future reference what is the year and model of the BM and what is the paint code. Your owner’s manual will tell you were the paint code is located on the vehicle.



There is no point using Menzerna FP II (P085RD) until you have removed all the defects with the more aggressive polishes. 85RD is a very fine finishing polish which is not suitable for removing swirls. It is superb for finishing, but you are nowhere near the finishing stage yet. 85RD can be used with either green (polishing), black(gray) or blue pads (depending on the hardness/softness of the paint), so I’d suggest getting the gray and blue pads back because you will eventually need and want them.



If you can catch them with a finger nail then they are not light scratches. Scratches like that will need special attention with small 3” or 4” pads. They can be greatly improved with a larger pad, but depending on how deep can’t always be eliminated. I’d suggest forgetting about the scratches and concentrate on removing the swirls. You can always come back to the scratches after, when you have the technique and the correct polishes and pads right.



Typically Menz polishes start off as a wet film, as you work them, the film gradually becomes a translucent film. They are diminishing polishes and therefore the abrasive particles contained within the polish break down from large to smaller particles. When they have fully broken down the film becomes transparent. You can still keep polishing (with the finishing polishes) but it is rather pointless with the more aggressive polishes. They are done when it becomes transparent. Either the defects are gone at the point or you have to add more polish and do another pass.

Since you are new to polishers and polishing get in the habit of always working clean. This is especially important when compounding/polishing soft paint. Get in the habit of always cleaning your pad with a pad brush everytime you put the polisher down, before you add new product. It only takes a couple of seconds at low speed to run a pad brush across your pad and it guarantees you are always working clean.

From your description (but I’d still like to see your pics) it sounds as though you will be needing M105 over the whole car, not just parts of it. Since you are new to M105, I’d suggest getting on the Meguiars forum and reading up on M105. M105 seems to give new users fits, so be sure to fully understand how it works, because it works very differently to any of the Menz products. Unlike the Menz polishes, M105 and Ultimate Compound are non diminishing polishes, so the technique to use them is quite different. Look up SMAT and KBM method on their forum. If you have any further questions after you study how to use them ask away here. Just to give you some encouragement BMs just love M105.
Click to expand...

thanks good advice. I guess the Flex just came out with a smaller backing plate to use with 5.5" pads - so I ordered the smaller backing plate. I just felt that it would be easier to work with smaller pads and that I would have more room to move in some of the smaller and tighter places like fenders, and around/in between trim areas, ect. I will look into how to use the Meguiars UC and 105. They both are scheduled to be here early next week. I am not too computer savy so I am not sure if I will be able to figure out how to get pics posted up here, but I will try. I need to look up the paint code - I know that the color is jet black though. Car is an '01. I have read that BMW jet black paint is soft while most other colors (except for maybe one other color) are hard clear coat. I think I may try to work on the small scratches with a 4" orange or yellow pad by hand so that I only concentrate on that one small area and I do not disturb the paint around it as they are only in a few places. There are swirls all over but I think the the UC and 105 will get them out - I will try a white pad first and then orange if needed with the UC and 105.
 
07 z-oh-6 said:
Try using Meg's UC or M105, then follow with Meg's Ultimate polish or M205. These products use non-diminishing abrasives that DO NOT have to be broken down, so you don't have to wonder if you've done enough passes. You get the same amount of cut from start to finish. With WG or Menzerna, they use diminishing abrasives that DO need to be broken down. The only drawback of non-diminishing abrasives is they may not finish perfect on soft paint, but they still finish nicely. If you want a show car finish, you could then try Menzerna PO85rd as your last step. I try to use non-diminishing abrasives(Meg's, optimum) every single time. I'll only use Menzerna polishes if I absolutely have to.
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thanks man - Both the Meg's UC and 105 will be here early next week. Maybe I should have just gone with Meg's all along, but I guess I went with the WG and Menzerna becasue I want to get the best finish possible. I do want to try for a show car finish. I have the Menzerna Final Polish II (PO87MC) to finish as I read that that works better that PO85rd on soft jet black BMW paint. Have you heard otherwise? Or have you finished great on soft paint with the PO85rd? If so, should I order that also or would there not be that much of a noticable difference between the PO87MC and PO85rd? I do have some Meg's Ultimate polish. Is that close enough to the 205 where I would not need the 205 as well? Not sure if you read most of the thread, but I also have the Wolf Gang TSR and FG. Guess maybe I should get into the detail business lol as I may be over doing it with polishes. Im just trying to get the best possible finish possible on my car so I may be ordering too many products. I am going to do either a 3 or 4 step polish.

So once I recieve the UC and 105 next week, I am first going to try the UC on a white pad...if I need more power then I will try 105 on a white pad...if I need more then I will try UC on an orange pad...and if I need more then I will try 105 on an orange pad. Thats as far as I want to go on this paint so I will have to deal with whatever swirls/scratches are still left if any. For the 2nd step I was thinking on going with the Wolf Gang Total Swirl Remover on a white pad to follow up after the UC/105. For the third step I was thinking the Wolf Gang Finishing Glaze on a grey pad. And then for the 4th and final step I was thinking the PO87MC on a blue pad to jewel (unless you think the PO85rd will be better than PO87MC). Do my steps sound okay or would you stick with the Meg's (either 205 or ultimate polish) for the 2nd/3rd steps?
 
I guess the Flex just came out with a smaller backing plate to use with 5.5" pads - so I ordered the smaller backing plate.
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Ok, I didn't realize that you already had the smaller BP. You should be fine then. Looking forward to hearing about your results next week.
 
I don't know if I missed it... maybe I did.

But why are you not making this easy on yourself?

Consider using Meguiar's Microfiber Discs. They will make this all so much easier.

A little squirrely with the 3401VRG, but that's partly the nature of the beast, and simply a learning curve.

Use whichever liquids you'd like, but for goodness sakes man... GET SOME!! :props:

Been using them since 2006 or so... they are VERY capable discs, and work well with all the liquids I've EVER tried them with.Im the MAN
 
Kevin Brown said:
I don't know if I missed it... maybe I did.

But why are you not making this easy on yourself?

Consider using Meguiar's Microfiber Discs. They will make this all so much easier.

A little squirrely with the 3401VRG, but that's partly the nature of the beast, and simply a learning curve.

Use whichever liquids you'd like, but for goodness sakes man... GET SOME!! :props:

Been using them since 2006 or so... they are VERY capable discs, and work well with all the liquids I've EVER tried them with.Im the MAN
Click to expand...
I've had horrible experiences with the MF discs and the 3401. :dunno: MUCH better results with my Griots DA.
 
07 z-oh-6 said:
I've had horrible experiences with the MF discs and the 3401. :dunno: MUCH better results with my Griots DA.
Click to expand...

Hey, I'm in YOUR camp... I much prefer a random orbital.

but pad versus pad, it is VERY difficult to beat the microfiber discs.

A guy like you would be a great testbed to see if an interface pad would help the 3401VRG's performance with these discs.

The finishing disc may feel a bit more comfortable and track a little easier, as it features a taller and softer foam.

It will affect the overall movement of the backing plate more than the cutting disc.
 
Kevin Brown said:
Hey, I'm in YOUR camp... I much prefer a random orbital.

but pad versus pad, it is VERY difficult to beat the microfiber discs.

A guy like you would be a great testbed to see if an interface pad would help the 3401VRG's performance with these discs.

The finishing disc may feel a bit more comfortable and track a little easier, as it features a taller and softer foam.

It will affect the overall movement of the backing plate more than the cutting disc.
Click to expand...
Do the finishing discs utilize the same exact MF as the cutting disc, just different foam backings?
 
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