Pros and cons of the Flex 3401 and Traditional DA, IMO....

PorscheGuy997 said:
Please explain how a properly primed pad surface can kill a DA. And, which parts were specifically failing due to usage and not manufacturing defects? Thanks.
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I'm not the one who said it was from a primed pad.
 
PorscheGuy997 said:
Please explain how a properly primed pad surface can kill a DA. And, which parts were specifically failing due to usage and not manufacturing defects? Thanks.

For one reason or another, I dislike the Flex DA. While it is a capable machine that can remove severe defects, I find myself fighting the machine. I'd rather use a DA or rotary. Besides, the old belief that rotation is the only acting force in defect removal is just a myth.
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I don't understand why you think it's easier to control a rotary than a Flex 3401. :cheers:
 
loudog2 said:
Kevin Brown is the reason why many people blew up their PC's
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Cute avatar BTW!!!! I remember the argument of the uniformed who kept saying that the 'KBM' mean using heavy heavy pressure, which Kevin never stated. Then again I know of a lot of people who have used super heavy pressure long before they ever heard of Kevin Brown and have never had a problem. The whole KBM thing was like a bad game of Chinese telephone, were people kept saying KBM=heavy pressure which never was and still isn't true.

Kevin has only explained how pad dynamics work, how the abrasives work on various pads, and how various rotational speeds can effect the orbital pattern created by the pad to manipulate things such as cut, finish etc (and a whole lot more). So Kevin systematically broke down exactly how and why a DA works and tried to explain it to the masses. If people feel that having knowledge made their PC spontaneously combust then I guess you correct.

If the statement that using heavy pressure can wear out a DA faster, okay I can buy that. (barely since the PC remains one of the least returned, most reliable machines sold) If the statement that Kevin Brown is some how responsible because people read somebody else tellling them what Kevin was teaching, then I would suggest that those people take responsibility for their own actions. Kevin is an easy enough guy to get a hold of and 1 30 second phone call would have prevented people from damaging their PC's (again assuming that heavy down pressure was the problem and not a manufacturing defect).

Since you cannot blame Kevin for things he never said: the question is simply... Do you blame the user who never verified what he read? Or do you blame the person giving out the misinformation?

I hope this clears up some of the misinformation that is still prevalent about Kevin Brown and his complex understanding of random orbital polishing.
 
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Flex=More power=more correction IMO...I do like my other DA's I feel each fulfill a different need.

BTW, the other piic made you look more "intimidating" JMO...lol.
 
loudog2 said:
I'm not the one who said it was from a primed pad.
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I'm not trying to be rude, but it doesn't matter if you didn't say it. If you didn't believe the KB method was at fault(which includes priming the pad), you wouldn't have posted it.
 
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loudog2 said:
:iagree:Never had a issue. Doesn't even matter that I am 6'3" 240. It is all technique.
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:iagree::whs:
Yes, I'm 6'1" 170 lbs of "ALL Good", all you have to do is "focus on the task at hand".
 
I'd have to agree with Mark that the Flex does have a tendency to want to wonder and it requires more effort from the user than a traditional DA. There was something about the way it handles that I just didn't like too...possibly the reverse rotation...

Also keep in mind that amount of "walking" the Flex will want to do varies quite a bit depending on the paint, pad, and polish being used. Is it hard to control? No, but it does feel awkward at first...especailly when you've been using either a rotary or DA for a while. If you use the Flex regularly it will likely feel very comfortable and I'm sure that's why some users find it odd wen someone mentions the Flex being harder to control. Heck even when I grab my rotary after not using it in a while it feels odd at first, but quickly settles in after a few passes....just like riding a bike.

I sold my Flex since I never used it anymore and found traditional DA's and rotaries to be all that I need.


Just my $.02
Rasky
 
TH0001 said:
Cute avatar BTW!!!! I remember the argument of the uniformed who kept saying that the 'KBM' mean using heavy heavy pressure, which Kevin never stated. Then again I know of a lot of people who have used super heavy pressure long before they ever heard of Kevin Brown and have never had a problem. The whole KBM thing was like a bad game of Chinese telephone, were people kept saying KBM=heavy pressure which never was and still isn't true.

Kevin has only explained how pad dynamics work, how the abrasives work on various pads, and how various rotational speeds can effect the orbital pattern created by the pad to manipulate things such as cut, finish etc (and a whole lot more). So Kevin systematically broke down exactly how and why a DA works and tried to explain it to the masses. If people feel that having knowledge made their PC spontaneously combust then I guess you correct.

If the statement that using heavy pressure can wear out a DA faster, okay I can buy that. (barely since the PC remains one of the least returned, most reliable machines sold) If the statement that Kevin Brown is some how responsible because people read somebody else tellling them what Kevin was teaching, then I would suggest that those people take responsibility for their own actions. Kevin is an easy enough guy to get a hold of and 1 30 second phone call would have prevented people from damaging their PC's (again assuming that heavy down pressure was the problem and not a manufacturing defect).

Since you cannot blame Kevin for things he never said: the question is simply... Do you blame the user who never verified what he read? Or do you blame the person giving out the misinformation?

I hope this clears up some of the misinformation that is still prevalent about Kevin Brown and his complex understanding of random orbital polishing.
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Your right, I should have phrased that differently. "It is not the arrows, it's the indians shooting them". Point being, even if people misunderstood, the PC's were still falling apart back then.

This is not a KB discussion, actually it should have never been mentioned. Different strokes for different fokes. Some like Miller, others like bud. No reason to start a thread explaining why your likes are better than others!! Not to be rude of course.

Another point is, just becasue 2 accomplished detailers don't like something doesn't mean it is bad. But if people like to jump on band wagons so be it.:dblthumb2:
 
loudog2 said:
Another point is, just becasue 2 accomplished detailers don't like something doesn't mean it is bad. But if people like to jump on band wagons so be it.:dblthumb2:
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If either one of them started this thread, would people question their technique? It has nothing to do with technique, I know what I'm doing. Also, where did I mention the Flex 3401 is bad? Did you happen to read the "pros" in my thread? I also stated a traditional DA isn't perfect, but no one seemed to rag on that?

On a side note, I just ordered 5.5" pads for the 3401. Obviously, they'll be smaller and thinner, which I feel will help a lot.
 
Before this is interpreted the wrong way, I want it known that I love a great debate/discussion.

On that note... let's have the discussion!! :hungry:

One BIG thing that nobody EVER seems to mention... so I will.

I have NEVER pushed the idea on unsuspecting folk that that should use the random orbital the way I choose to.

In fact, the ONLY guy I ever recall sending unsolicited advice to was Todd Helme. The rest of the e-mails I sent (and subsequent posts on various forums) were sent only after a discussion ensued about the specifics of the "KBM", or the thread was seen by me, or brought to my attention.

A quick search of some of my various posts pertaining to use of the random orbital tends to validate the fact that I was very specific about being careful when using the "KBM", or the random orbital. Since we're not supposed to link to other sites, I went ahead and took screen shots to post.

To follow. :wave:
 
In order of date posted.

Autopia post pertaining to a guy that tore up a backing plate:

autopia-post.jpg


DB post pertaining to the "paper" and busted up backing plates:

db-731-post.jpg


db-731-post-2.jpg


DB post pertaining to a newbie with questions:

db-903-post.jpg


AG post pertaining to the "KBM":

AG-post.jpg


TID post pertaining to "KBM" and machines, etc:

tid-post-1.jpg


tid-post-2.jpg
 
Like I stated 2 posts ago, "I should have phrased it differently". Lets not get off on a discussion that doesn't need to be discussed.
 
loudog2 said:
Like I stated 2 posts ago, "I should have phrased it differently". Lets not get off on a discussion that doesn't need to be discussed.
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Oh, okay. Like I said two posts ago...

Kevin Brown said:
Before this is interpreted the wrong way, I want it known that I love a great debate/discussion. On that note... let's have the discussion!!
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I would never make a statement (such as you did about me) that showed an obvious desire to make a guy seem incompetent, or look ridiculous, or be responsible for others actions.

So, yeah, I took notice, but had no anger nor negative thought about what you said. Yet, I wanted to discuss it.

Now that I have spent the better part of an hour copying and pasting posts that I wrote in direct opposition to what you claimed about me... you reiterate that you wish not to discuss it.

Okay, I'll go with that.

I don't know how you would have phrased things differently, however. Perhaps our paths have crossed before, or I didn't answer a post, or you simply don't like me, or random orbitals for that matter. That's okay. I just hope you understand that when something is posted that directly, in such a negative fashion... and I get several e-mails about it in a short period of time... well, perhaps you can understand why I wanted to "clear the air".

Thank you loudog2 for allowing the response. I truly enjoy a good discussion, so long as it is based in the merits of the products or procedures to do with detailing.

And please don't twist me into a pretzel if we ever meet. Your specifications of: 6'3" 240lbs has been laser beamed into my brain. :cheers:
 
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Kevin Brown said:
Oh, okay. Like I said two posts ago...



I would never make a statement (such as you did about me) that showed an obvious desire to make a guy seem incompetent, or look ridiculous, or be responsible for others actions.

So, yeah, I took notice, but had no anger nor negative thought about what you said. Yet, I wanted to discuss it.

Now that I have spent the better part of an hour copying and pasting posts that I wrote in direct opposition to what you claimed about me... you reiterate that you wish not to discuss it.

Okay, I'll go with that.

I don't know how you would have phrased things differently, however. Perhaps our paths have crossed before, or I didn't answer a post, or you simply don't like me, or random orbitals for that matter. That's okay. I just hope you understand that when something is posted that directly, in such a negative fashion... and I get several e-mails about it in a short period of time... well, perhaps you can understand why I wanted to "clear the air".

Thank you loudog2 for allowing the response. I truly enjoy a good discussion, so long as it is based in the merits of the products or procedures to do with detailing.

And please don't twist me into a pretzel if we ever meet. Your specifications of: 6'3" 240lbs has been laser beamed into my brain. :cheers:
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How could anyone not respect this guy?! :cheers:
 
Kevin Brown said:
Oh, okay. Like I said two posts ago...



I would never make a statement (such as you did about me) that showed an obvious desire to make a guy seem incompetent, or look ridiculous, or be responsible for others actions.

So, yeah, I took notice, but had no anger nor negative thought about what you said. Yet, I wanted to discuss it.

Now that I have spent the better part of an hour copying and pasting posts that I wrote in direct opposition to what you claimed about me... you reiterate that you wish not to discuss it.

Okay, I'll go with that.

I don't know how you would have phrased things differently, however. Perhaps our paths have crossed before, or I didn't answer a post, or you simply don't like me, or random orbitals for that matter. That's okay. I just hope you understand that when something is posted that directly, in such a negative fashion... and I get several e-mails about it in a short period of time... well, perhaps you can understand why I wanted to "clear the air".

Thank you loudog2 for allowing the response. I truly enjoy a good discussion, so long as it is based in the merits of the products or procedures to do with detailing.

And please don't twist me into a pretzel if we ever meet. Your specifications of: 6'3" 240lbs has been laser beamed into my brain. :cheers:
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No need to take things so personal Kevin. Just trying to stop any drama or unneeded long posts. Too late for that I guess.

The statement was based on Mark saying you and Chad don't like the flex. He brought you into this somehow. Fact of the matter is that people destroyed their DA's and BP's trying to use your method right? Regardless is you told them to do it or not(you stated and proved you didn't), but they did. Right?

My statement should have said "Kevin Brown's method is why many peoples DA's and BP's were destroyed". These people were trying your method, wrongly I guess.

There is no need to get into this. But feel free to take the high and mighty approach if you want to. I hold no grudge agaist you since I don't personally know you.
 
loudog2 said:
The statement was based on Mark saying you and Chad don't like the flex. He brought you into this somehow.
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Well, you claimed it's my "technique", like I'm incompetent. I'm far from incompetent. If I felt I was, I would admit it. Do you question Kevins or Chads technique with the Flex 3401? Is it not ok that I agree with them?
 
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