I'm not so sure about CarPro Eraser...

[WRAPT C5Z06]

Great topic Mark, maybe this will rival the leather thread! :righton:

:dblthumb2:

I just hope the thread stays civil.

Griot's Pre-Wax Cleaner does not contain IPA, but I'm not sure exactly what it does contain. MSDS anyone?

 

[Ron Atchison]

Question......... why not just spend the 15 bucks and buy a product that has been used for many years by people in the automtive paint industry that was designed by "chemist" in the atomotive paint industy to do exactly what you are wanting to do? Generic name "wax & grease remover" walk into any automotive paint store and ask for it. They will have a couple of them for you to choose from. Seems that the more products that come out to do this or that then people tend overcomplicate simple procedures. Of course the people selling the stuff love the bench racing that goes on about their product.

 

[SameGuy]

W&GR tends to be white spirit, varsol or some other mineral spirit. I'm sure lots of us have it just lying around, now that everybody's doing the spar urethane thing on headlamps!

 

[VW 91]

Then you would need to rinse after you use those.. I'm looking to avoid rewashing the car as I'm sure most of us would want to avoid adding steps to the process unless needed.

Im just trying to give ideas, personally I would stick with IPA and Eraser, but for those who arent comfortable with IPA and dont care about time then they could use this and rinse afterwords..

 

[C. Charles Hahn]

There was a conversation on another forum about solvent use to reduce Opti-Coat for easy spray application, and Dr. G went into a bit of interesting background that could very well apply to this conversation:

...I like to set the record straight about the solvents and solvency since I worked on formulating paint removers for a few years (I formulated the Aircraft Paint Remover used by most bodyshops) so I know a thing or two about solvents swelling paint to the point of delamination. Here is a list of the solvents in order of speed to swell and delaminate automotive paint:

Methylene chloride>>Methyl Ethyl Ketone (MEK)>Ethyl acetate (EA)>N-Methyl Pyrilidone (NMP)>propylene carbonate >Butyl Cellusolve (EB)>acetone

If you look up automotive paint removers you will find one or more of these listed on the MSDS.

...

Among these the only one that is chlorinated is methylene chloride. The rest are oxygenated solvents such as MEK or acetone. Lacquer thinner is a blend of MEK, EA, acetone, etc. These solvents can break the bonds of cross linked clear coat paint if left on the surface long enough. For instance, methylene chloride removes paint in about 10 minutes, while it takes 1-2 hours for MEK, and it requires hours or days for the rest of these solvents. Even wiping clear coat with these solvents in high concentration can cause cloudiness or hazing of clear coat.

"Oddly enough, two of the solvents mentioned in Ron's post were candidates that Dr. G gave me for thinning Opti-Coat. Time to find more thinning options..." Supe.

The two solvents I suggested to you at SEMA were xylene and paint thinner / mineral spirits (not lacquer thinner which is very different). However, I said paint thinner is too slow. While all solvents including IPA, Prepsol, xylene, paint thinner, etc. will swell paint, they will not cause any damage or break the bonds of cross-linked clear coat finish! These solvents have been tested and used for years and I think to just group them as "chlorinated versions" is not an accurate statement.

Given that IPA will not cause any damage, per Dr. G's commentary, I would assert that it depends on what you're using Eraser for whether or not it's an effective choice. As an inspection spray while doing correction, I'd pass, but as a prep before applying a coating to an already known perfect finish I have no reason to feel uncomfortable with it.

 

[WRAPT C5Z06]

There was a conversation on another forum about solvent use to reduce Opti-Coat for easy spray application, and Dr. G went into a bit of interesting background that could very well apply to this conversation:



Given that IPA will not cause any damage, per Dr. G's commentary, I would assert that it depends on what you're using Eraser for whether or not it's an effective choice. As an inspection spray while doing correction, I'd pass, but as a prep before applying a coating to an already known perfect finish I have no reason to feel uncomfortable with it.

GREAT INFO!!!! :dblthumb2:

As I stated before, I never thought these chemicals will damage paint, just swell them, like Dr. G said.

 

[Ron Atchison]

No but you did say that it will swell the paint to the point that it would hide the imperfections. That's alot of swelling in a very short amount of time. hmmmm if I painted it blue and rubbed IPA on it, oh never mind....JK Anyway Mark all I'm saying is I think your thinking way too deep about this. But sometimes it's kind of fun to ponder something and just throw it out there to see what the return is.

 

[WRAPT C5Z06]

No but you did say that it will swell the paint to the point that it would hide the imperfections.

If anything, it could swell/soften the paint resulting in marring when wiping it off. Do you really want to chance that?

Anyway Mark all I'm saying is I think your thinking way too deep about this.

Nope.

 

[Ron Atchison]

I agree with you also Mark that you shouldn't use anything on the paint that is going to cause problems, but IPA swelling the paint?????

Did a little looking around on the web also and just found an iterview with Dr. G and he recommended a concentration of IPA of 10-25% paint dependant and also stated the major concern is marring not swelling and if they do occur which may not be all the time they are both temporary.

 

[Ron Atchison]

More to the point because this seems to running around the bush. My argument on this is your statement that IPA will cause swelling to the extent that it will hide the imperfections for a few days until the swelling goes down. Other than that ..............

 

[C. Charles Hahn]

Hmm..... maybe we could mix some Tylenol in with Eraser to solve the problem? It does reduce swelling, after all....

 

[FUNX650]

If I may, Mark has brought up...IMO...a two part question. which covers, or involves:

1.)Solvents...CarPro Erasure and other solvents brought up during this thread's discussion such as: IPA, PrepSol, PS21 TAW, etc.
And how they may affect (Such as swelling):
2.)A cataylized two-part polyurethane paint system...clear-coat paint film coating (Can it be absorbent)


-In order to understand this relationship, IMO, there should be some parameters set forth for each individual component of how I see Mark's question.
For those parameters, and as they may pertain to this thread's discussion....Here goes...IMO, that is.

First:
A.) What are solvents?

-Solvents are usaually considered liquid substances that are capable of dissolving other substances by, and through, creating mixtures that are then called solutions.
-These solutions also, then, should not affect, or "harm" as it were, an underlying substance.

B.) Is a Clear-Coat paint film coating permeable?

-Polyurethane clear-coat paint is formulated to be elastic, flexible, scratch resistant, and other attributes.
-Freshly cured, straight from the OEM's factory paint kitchen ovens, is when clear-coats are considered the most dense...meaning thickest, hardest, least permeable, clearest, shiniest, etc.
This is un-aged paint

(Resprays from aftermarket sources, although they may be applied in multiple coats and be "thicker", will never be as "hard" in the same terms as OEM's because of the different temperatures during the respective heat-curing methods. "Softer" is often a term that is used for this difference.)

-Upon leaving the OEM plant, the clear-coat begins its journey towards the end of its expected life-cycle. It is being continually bombarded by contaminates. Some of the most destructive contaminates are brake and rail dust...They permeate the clear-coat causing microscopic openings/fissures/crazing, thus allowing other contaminates to permeate into the a-few mils thick clear-coat, furthering its degradation.

-Couple that with all the effects that: UV rays, bird bombs, weather related events, unintended scratches, washing, claying, drying, polishing, etc., and the wear & tear of the clear-coat continues, making it even more, and more permeable as time passes. This is "aged-paint"


Secondly:

Choosing Solvents that will be effective, and as such, will cause no harm:
-Trial & Error
-Word of Mouth
-"Like dissolves Like"
-Experience....Empirical/Real world testing
-Scientific testing evidence that shows:
Strength, evaporation rate, viscosity, health & safety, environmental impact, etc.

A person shouldn't have to be Rocket Scientist or a Chemist in order to choose a solvent!
And so...There are solvent organization systems that may assist in those selections of solvents and how they affect substances.
In this thread's interest: Solvent-polymer substances interactions/behavior.

Some of the solvent organization systems are really just simple mathematical graphs...and one doesn't have to understand the chemistry behind them...But,

So why bother with them?
Unless a person is inclined to do otherwise, the SAE and automotive paint engineers have joined in with the paint manufacturers, and their engineers to figure out what solvents will do to polyurethane paint, as well as all other automotive surfaces....on top, around, inside, and under.

They use these "solvent charts" that include, among others:
Solubility scales, solvent grades/classes, aromatic properties, cloud-points, Hildebrand NO., hydrogen bonding, Teas graphs, Van der Waals forces, vaporization (boiling points), temperature, dispersion forces, polar forces (electromagnetic), and etc., and etc.

-These charts are used by the above mentioned and varied paint-engineers, because they give comprehensive information about the "strengths" of solvents, thus allowing them to easily determine what solvents or solvent blends can be used to dissolve a particular materials, such as, in this case, polyurethane paint systems.

Note:
-It has been both scientifically, and, by accepted engineering protocols, proven that polyurethane will decompose before its level of vaporization heat could be attained, and that its swelling behavior is one of the ways that these solvent charts/values are utilized.


Here's one such chart:

Solvent 100 fd 100 fp 100 fh

Alkanes
1 n-Pentane 100 0 0
1 n- Hexane 100 0 0
1 n-Heptane 100 0 0
1 n-Dodecane 100 0 0
2 Cyclohexane 94 2 4
3 V M& P Naphtha 94 3 3
4 Mineral Spirits 90 4

Aromatic Hydrocarbons
5 Benzene 78 8 14
6 Toluene 80 7 13
7 o-Xylene 83 5 12
8 Naphthalene 70 8 22
9 Styrene 78 4 18
10 Ethylbenzene 87 3 10
11 p-Diethyl benzene 97 0 3

Halogen Compounds
12 Methylene chloride 59 21 20
13 Ethylene dichloride 67 19 14
14 Chloroform 67 12 21
15 Trichloroethylene 68 12 20
16 Carbon tetrachloride 85 2 13
17 1,1,1 Trichloroethane 70 19 11
18 Chlorobenzene 65 17 8
19 Trichlorotrifluoroethane 90 10 0

Ethers
20 Diethyl ether 64 13 23
21 Tetrahydrofuran 55 19 26
22 Dioxane 67 7 26
23 Methyl Cellosolve 39 22 39
24 Cellosolve 8 42 20 38
25 Butyl Cellosolve 46 18 36
26 Methyl Carbitol 44 21 35
27 Carbitol ® 48 23 29
25 Butyl Carbitol 46 18 36

Ketones
28 Acetone 47 32 21
29 Methyl ethyl ketone [53] [30] [17]
30 Cyclohexanone 55 28 17
Diethyl ketone 56 27 17
Mesityl oxide 55 24 21
31 Methyl isobutyl ketone 58 22 20
32 Methyl isoamyl ketone 62 20 18
Isophorone 51 25 24
33 Di-isobutyl ketone [67] [16] [17]

Esters
34 Methyl acetate 45 36 19
35 Propylene carbonate 48 38 14
36 Ethyl acetate 51 18 31
Trimethyl phosphate [39] [37] [24]
Diethyl carbonate 64 12 24
Diethyl sulfate 42 39 19
37 n-Butyl acetate 60 13 27
Isobutyl acetate 60 i 5 25
38 Isobutyl isobutyrate 63 12 25
39 Isoamyl acetate 60 12 28
40 Cellosolve® acetate 51 i 5 34
Ethyl lactate 44 21 35
Butyl lactate 40 20 32

Nitrogen Compounds
41 Acetonitrile 39 45 16
42 Butyronitrile 44 41 15
43 Nitromethane 40 47 13
44 Nitroethane 44 43 13
45 2-Nitropropane 50 37 13
46 Nitrobenzene 52 36 12
47 Pyridine 56 26 18
48 Morpnoline 57 15 28
49 Aniline 50 19 31
50 N-Methyl-2-pyrrolidone 48 32 20
Diethylenetriamine 38 30 32
51 Cyclohexylamine [64] [12] [24]
Formamide 28 42 30
52 N N-Dimethylformamide 41 32 27

Sulfur Compounds
88 8 4
53 Carbon disulfide
54 Dimethylsulfoxide 41 36 23

Alcohols
55 Methanol 30 22 48
56 Ethanol 36 18 46
57 1-Propanol 40 16 44
58 2-Propanol [41] [16] [43] (IPA)
59 1-Butanol 43 15 42
2-Butanol [44] [16] [40]
Benzyl alcohol 48 16 36
60 Cyclohexanol 50 12 38
61 n-amyl alcohol 46 13 41
62 Diacetone alcohol 45 24 31
2-Ethyl-1-hexanol 50 9 41

Polyhydric Alcohols
63 Ethylene glycol 30 18 52
64 Glycerol 25 23 52
65 Propylene glycol 34 16 50
66 Diethylene glycol 31 29 40

67 Water 18 28 54

Miscellaneous Liquids
68 Phenol 46 15 39
69 Benzaldehyde 61 23 16
70 Turpentine 77 18 5
71 Dipentene 75 20 5
Formic acid [33] [28] [39]
Acetic acid [401 [22] [38]
Oleic acid [62] [14] [24]
Stearic acid [65] [131 [22]
Linseed oil 66 17 17
Cottonseed oil 67 15 18
Neets foot oil 69 14 17
Pine oil 70 14 16
Sperm oil 75 11 14
1 Mineral oil 100 0 0


It is recommended by the: Paint manufacturers, Automotive engineers, and the SAE to:
-Use no more than a 10% IPA solution on softer paints
-Use no more than 15-18% IPA solution on harder paints
-Use a dedicated solvent such as, or similar to: PrepSol, 3m Prep Solvent, at the recommended dilution ratios.

Thirdly:

-Besides what is mentioned above [in regards to clear-coat paint becoming more permeable (by "aging-processes")] and being that it is a polymer that has been formulated to have elasticity, heat associated with "buffing" will also cause an increased amount of swelling. This is especially true when buffing for an extended amount of time in one area, and when a panel's temperature is already "hot-to-the-touch".

-Sure, more often than not, the swelling will appear to go down...be reduced. But, like anything having elasticity, keep stretching it enough and a lot of the elasticity begins to disappear.
-Another thing that can occur by over-heating polyurethane paints is that, even though it will swell, it will also start the delamination process (paint resins/binders softened from excess heat (stress), with imminent clear-coat failure in the near future.
(If one sees a "cloudy" look in the clear-coat after polishing processes...More than likely delamination has begun.)
-A huge question: How to determine softness/hardness of a OEM applied clear-coat, and not create more "aging"?

Fourth Aspect:

-Solvents by design will create heat while dissolving substances. If the clear-coat paint film has been compromised by the "aging processes", they will, because of their molecular size, permeate the clear-coat film...carrying with it "heated" substances (that are now in solution form) into the clear-coat paint film matrix.
Besides the extra heat, the now absorbed liquid solution will,
in fact, cause swelling.

It has been proven, that an unprotected clear-coat will even absorb enough water during a rain-event to cause swelling. [as witnessed by clouding (delamination)] to occur

That makes it paramount to wax/seal/coat even a new, right off the car-hauler vehicle. Even though a person may protest when a dealership "details" their brand new vehicle...That's standard protocol advisement from the OEM's...to protect their paint warranties.
BTW...It's either done at the dealership or at the port-of-call's "get-ready" detail guys! Then the shipping wrap goes on at least the vehicles' horizontal surfaces.

Epilogue:

I realize it's am individual's choice, but if I'm going to clean/strip from the paint surfaces as much polishing oils, and other unwanted "filler" substances, I much rather prefer to use the recommended solvents in the recommended dilution ratios....
There's enough swelling going on, in regards to polyurethane clear-coat paint, as it is. Investing the energy to decide what solvent to use in situations, will prolong the inevitable end-of-life-cycle for what I have always considered: A large investment.



Bob

 

[Bunky]

True.

I think IPA @ 10% is just fine, but IPA tends to be grabby at times, therefore a greater chance of marring the paint when wiping off.

I'm very curious to know what's in Griot's Pre-Wax Cleaner.

It is a citrus based cleaner. The question by some is does the cleaner wipe cleanly off the paint so not to possibly affect the next step products.

I did a quick test but the videos did not come out (hard to see on black) that was a before and after using the pre-wax cleaner. It does have an obvious effect on residual waxes.

 

[Flash Gordon]

Swelling happens instantaneously.

Thats what she said :dblthumb2:

 

[WRAPT C5Z06]

It does have an obvious effect on residual waxes.

Al, I'm not exactly sure what you're trying to say? Are you saying that using Griot's PWC before waxing had a negative affect on durability of waxes?

 

[Mike PhillipsMike Phillips is verified member.]

Nice bit of research there Bob, this is the best part...

Epilogue:

I realize it's am individual's choice, but if I'm going to clean/strip from the paint surfaces as much polishing oils, and other unwanted "filler" substances, I much rather prefer to use the recommended solvents in the recommended dilution ratios....


Bob

:xyxthumbs:

 

[CEE DOG]

Nice Bob!
Some great reasoning to use a paint cleaner like I do on my Sky and many other cases instead of any harsh solvents. :dblthumb2:

Al, I'm not exactly sure what you're trying to say? Are you saying that using Griot's PWC before waxing had a negative affect on durability of waxes?

It is a citrus oil based product! It will leave citrus oil on the paint. Maybe ok for waxes and sealants that have solvents to remove it but I wouldn't waste my time using that before applying a coating. My .02

 

[CEE DOG]

Man, haven't we been here before. Alcohol is a fast evaporating solvent which leaves the paint much faster than the products people are stating they use that are "safer". Alcohol evaporates completely from the paint within a couple hours to a day or so at the most depending on temperature. Mineral spirits and the benzene (cancer causing) laden prep sols and the like stay in the paint for weeks.

This was what I learned about IPA that made me feel fine about it and what I posted last time in this thread.

Well, I'm not concerned about the alcohol hurting the paint as long as you don't get crazy.

I have never seen marring from using IPA even at strong dilutions. I'm assuming you are worried about it softening the paint temporarily and allowing marring when you use the mf towel. Then again I must not have ever worked on paint that's extra soft. I have worked on relatively soft paint though and haven't gotten it.

I would love to see some documentation of IPA causing a mf towel to mar. I believe those who say this but I don't know if it's due to only the IPA or the towels as well.

Have you used IPA and seen marring from it?

Polishing paint heats it up and softens it temporarily as well so...


Anyway, awhile back I asked Dr. G some questions about IPA and as always he was kind enough to educate me further on the subject.

Courtesy of Dr. G of Optimum:

There is a lot of confusing information about solvents in general and IPA in particular. Let's limit our scope to cross-linked (enamel) clear coat finishes since that is the paint system on the majority of the cars we are talking about. Although there are many different paint systems being used, in all cases with this type of paint, IPA or other solvents will penetrate the paint and cause some swelling. Depending on the solvent, the degree of swelling varies and in some cases like with methylene chloride (within seconds) and MEK (within minutes), it can swell it to the point of delamination. IPA and mineral spirits do swell the paint but not to the same level of course.

As the paint swells and expands, it also becomes softer. Since there are many different types of paints being used, some paints might soften to the point that even a gentle wipe down might cause micro marring while others may not mar even at much higher solvent concentrations. That might explain the variations in some of the observations different people have reported.

While fast solvents such as IPA may fully evaporate at higher temperatures (e.g. 90 F) within hours, slower solvents like MS may take several days before they reach levels below 1%. But the notion that the solvents may be trapped in the paint forever or that the paint will soften permanently is absurd since clear coat paints start off with anywhere from 20-70% solvents and if this theory had any validity, then all paints should stay soft and/or some of the solvents should be trapped within the paint forever.

After this brief introduction, let me respond to your specific questions:

Is IPA safe for paint and in what dilution?

I would follow the recommendations of 10-25% IPA in water as a safe cleaning solution. The reason for this wide range is due to the variations in the clear coat paint systems. Therefore, when dealing with a soft clear coat or for those who notice a great deal of softening effect, they should stay at the lower end of the range while others can use the upper limit. Of course, the greater the percentage of IPA, the faster it will remove the oils.

Does it soften the paint either temporarily or permanently?

While straight IPA or even 70% IPA can soften the paint excessively, as you increase the water level, the softening effect drops exponentially. In any case, as I explained earlier the softening effect is temporary.

 

[CEE DOG]

Nice Bob!! Some great reasoning to use a paint cleaner like I do on my Sky and many other cases instead of any harsh solvents.

 

[WRAPT C5Z06]

Corey, Dr. G states that IPA can soften paint, which can lead to marring. So, it's recommended to stay in the 10-25% range. Obviously, 25% being on the *higher* end. However, Eraser uses 30-50% IPA(probably close to 40%), so are you still confident in using it?