FUNX650
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- Dec 1, 2010
- 21,057
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Thanks for the link RaskyR1...Interesting read!
[Almost confirms my suspicions of CC paint's "ingredients"/characteristics I brought up in my previous post (#34) in this thread.]
Bob
Ceramiclear Paints - Be Careful
- Thread starter Mike Phillips
- Start date
Thanks for the link RaskyR1...Interesting read!
[Almost confirms my suspicions of CC paint's "ingredients"/characteristics I brought up in my previous post (#34) in this thread.]
Bob
David Fermani
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- Apr 19, 2007
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Mike – This is a great article! I’ve not only corrected many vehicles equipped with finickey clears, but ones with the notorious (and misrepresented) CeramiClear finish. This finish is actually a joint effort of PPG and Mercedes of Germany. PPG also makes/has made a few other similar clears for BMW 5, 6 & 7 Series (Powered Clear) and Ferrari (I can’t recall the name), Infinity (Self Healing), Nissan (Scratch Guard).
Mercedes is the only manufacturer using CeramiClear on most of their overseas manufactured vehicles. Mercedes produced in the US, such as their ML , GL and GLK trucks, do not have CeramiClear as well as any vehicle with a Carbon Fiber substrate like the Black Series and SLR which is actually painted in England (McClaren). As a matter of fact, I’ve been told my one of the PPG factory reps that the clear on the SLR (which is extremely soft) can actually be reflowed with a dedicated heat lamp making it more rigid.
The nano-particles in the CeramiClear system is not only in place on the top surface portion of the clearcoat, but throughout the entire clearcoat surface, but for the most part the “hard” attributes are highly concentrated in the upper .2-.3 mils of the surface. So, this special feature can be removed with heavy buffing and/or sanding. Because this surface is so hard in nature, it would take multiple hard buffing sessions to conquer this.
Mercedes started using CeramiClear finishes around 2003 and can be identified by inspection of their Vin tag located on the driver’s door jam. Look to the paint code and it should have a “C” indicating that it is indeed CeramiClear.
Despite what Eric mentioned, CeramiClear can and is being applied in the refinish industry. I actually know of 2 shops in the S. Florida area that are spraying CeramiClear and charging a premium for it too. Hope this helps!
Mercedes is the only manufacturer using CeramiClear on most of their overseas manufactured vehicles. Mercedes produced in the US, such as their ML , GL and GLK trucks, do not have CeramiClear as well as any vehicle with a Carbon Fiber substrate like the Black Series and SLR which is actually painted in England (McClaren). As a matter of fact, I’ve been told my one of the PPG factory reps that the clear on the SLR (which is extremely soft) can actually be reflowed with a dedicated heat lamp making it more rigid.
The nano-particles in the CeramiClear system is not only in place on the top surface portion of the clearcoat, but throughout the entire clearcoat surface, but for the most part the “hard” attributes are highly concentrated in the upper .2-.3 mils of the surface. So, this special feature can be removed with heavy buffing and/or sanding. Because this surface is so hard in nature, it would take multiple hard buffing sessions to conquer this.
Mercedes started using CeramiClear finishes around 2003 and can be identified by inspection of their Vin tag located on the driver’s door jam. Look to the paint code and it should have a “C” indicating that it is indeed CeramiClear.
Despite what Eric mentioned, CeramiClear can and is being applied in the refinish industry. I actually know of 2 shops in the S. Florida area that are spraying CeramiClear and charging a premium for it too. Hope this helps!
5.4 Shelby
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- Feb 23, 2010
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Good info David.
Do you know if the BMW M3s have it? Particularly the 2008 convertible? I am looking at one currently. Dont want to deal with owning one if it has that paint.
Rix6
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- Dec 18, 2011
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I think Mike's warning is aimed more towards a detailer taking a cautious approach with a customer's ceramicleared car where the paint polishing history unknown. For your own car that you buy new, why avoid this kind of paint? You'll take care of the car right? If you need to remove some minor swirls you're not going to be removing any more paint than you would with normal clear, thus you will be removing hardly any paint. Personally I'd much rather have ceramiclear on my G37 than the self healing stuff I'm stuck with that scratches if I look at it.
-Rick
Avi@CarPro
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- Mar 24, 2011
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just my small info knowledge....
ceramic abrassives wear away at defect rather than cutting at them. They roll around on the surface like little balls of metal and reduce the deffects but rounding them over in a more gentle way. Simipliar to rounding over a scratch with a polisher when the paint levels will not let your remove full. By rounding over you defuse the light and with no sharp edges it scatter the direct light and is difused. This is how ceramic polish work
we use this tech inside Fixer btw!
ceramic abrassives wear away at defect rather than cutting at them. They roll around on the surface like little balls of metal and reduce the deffects but rounding them over in a more gentle way. Simipliar to rounding over a scratch with a polisher when the paint levels will not let your remove full. By rounding over you defuse the light and with no sharp edges it scatter the direct light and is difused. This is how ceramic polish work
we use this tech inside Fixer btw!
Mike Phillips
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- Dec 5, 2022
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- #47
Exactly. Thank you.
While I'm back in this thread, a few comments...
A BRAND NEW vehicle with a Ceramiclear finish shouldn't need any kind of correction work but if everyone re-reads my first post I was sharing a horror story my friend Shawn ran into when FIXING a BRAND NEW Mercedes-Benz and he was running into PROBLEMS.
From my first post...
Mike Phillips said:
The above issues are visual indicators something went wrong.
A brand new Mercedes-Benz AMG from a Mercedes-Benz Dealership should have a brand new, pristine finish. Period.
That fact that it didn't means that there's something terribly wrong with the management of the dealership. It also means the dealership has hired a detailer, or detailers that are not qualified to machine polish paint. By this I mean they don't possess the knowledge or skills necessary to correctly diagnose and then work on paint.
Shawn un-did the damage and restored a customer pleasing finish. I'm going to guess that from this experience he's going to be more careful in the future about fixing other detailers hack work.
You see, sometimes it's not about how GREAT you are at machine polishing paint, sometimes it's about the paint and there are going to be times when you are asked to buff out a car and in some case the wise choice might be to let someone else have the blessing.
My good friend and Pro Detailer Robert DiTerlizzi turned down fixing the scratches in the hood and trunk lid of a BRAND NEW Mercedes-Benz because he decided in was in his best interest to let someone else have the blessing.
I've had nothing but good luck buffing on Ceramiclears but understanding more about them will help me to approach them more wisely into the future and that's all I'm trying to do with this article, help my fellow detailing buddies to avoid getting themselves into a detailing project, previously hacked-up by someone else.
Or like in Robert's scenario, when faced with deep scratches in brand new car with a sticker price in the window of over $500,000.00 to know when to walk away...
My hope is that someday, someone from the car manufacturing world will read our forum and somehow, new cars and trucks will start getting more paint sprayed onto them, not less and sprayed with a paint system that's easier to work on. But I'm not holding my breath.
:xyxthumbs:
Bates Detailing
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- Jan 11, 2011
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Great info and warning - glad I ran across this thread.
What about writing some car manufacturers and pointing this out? It seems like they'd want their cars to look better than others and to be represented well at car shows and the like rather than be swirled-up, messes. Then again, I guess it's all about volume with them. Still, just wondering if you ever wrote or spoke to anybody about it. Seems like it'd mean more coming from an industry insider than me, but heck, if a 1,000 "Joe Blows" like myself contacted them a day, they might listen. Who knows, it might be like writing your Senator..hahh. I guess you can tell I'm bored at work today.
They have the technology and means to put together some better paint jobs, but I guess the overall demand is not there.
Mike Phillips
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- Dec 5, 2022
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To answer your question, no I have never written to any car manufacture with suggestions for their paint systems.
As information spreads via discussion forums like this and the consumers become more knowledgeable, maybe someday a car manufacture would at a minimum offer customer's the option to order a car with a specific type of paint and more of it.
I'm not much of a new car buyer so I'm never going to have to deal with new paint systems on my own cars.
I don't mind being an advocate for the masses on this topic but I don't think what we want for paint systems on new cars will ever be on their radar screen.
5.4 Shelby
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Right. I get the point of the warning, but, it applies to the owners of these cars that do their own correction work.
Because the detailer in the original post had trouble with a brand new car that got hacked. He was not able to correct the hack job without serious headache. He apparently went through the hardened surface. I want to be able to correct whatever happens to my car. I am looking at a black one. Over time it is going to get some scratches, marring etc. I dont want to get to the point where the paint cant be corrected. Also, what if I screw it up trying to correct it? That means I need to fix whatever damage I caused. My comfort level with cutting and polishing my own cars is knowing that I can get myself out of most jams that I get into.
0.2 mils is not that thick. I estimate the average car has paint about 5.5 mil (140 micrometers) for all the paint (primer/BC/CC). If CC is 1/3 of that it is only 1.8 mils total.
If I would ever need to wetsand a deep scratch out or something, suddenly , I am into the soft underpaint.
What if I need to have body work done someday and they screw it up blending the other panels. They hack job my car and I am stuck with buffer trails.
umi000
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- Jan 14, 2011
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That's nice - except the discussion isn't about ceramic abrasives, but Ceramiclear paint...
Jaretr1
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I guess I am missing the benefits of this paint. I just corrected my friends CLS550, and his car was covered with swirls and scratches. If his car did in fact have this paint, it was totally ineffective in preventing or reducing swirls and scratches. I only achieved a 65% correction with one round, I would have had to go over the car at least twice with M105 to get to maybe 80%. His car looked good when I was done. But if he has this paint, I would say epic fail.
5.4 Shelby
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I think he is talking about the abrasives his company uses in its polishes that we should use in ceramic paint. In my opinion totally relevant to the conversation.
David Fermani
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Yes, in theory, but not in practice. Case in point, I did a Pre Delivery Inspection (PDI) for a client recently at a MB dealer in S. Florida. Through my instruction, he vehamently requested when special ordering his new vehicle that they not lay a single hand on it when it arrived at their store. I was to do any and all physical prep of the vehicle per their agreement. He actually tracked the vehicle through final delivery right up to the time of day it was to arrive there. As soon as it did, I was dispatched there to inspect it. I can assure you that no one ever washed or buffed this vehicle at the dealer. This video was filmed by me at the dealer. I am 100% confident that this damage was done at the factory:
Click for video:
David Fermani
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Great info David! Nice to hear from you.
Hi there! Coming to DF this year?
rops:Thanks. M3's (or any 3 series for that matter) do not have Ceramic/Powered clear. In fact, they have a pretty sensitive finish. On the other hand, I wouldn't be hesitant one bit to own a vehicle equipped with Ceramic paint. It's actually a great feature and holds up to resisting swirls considerably better then most vehicles. The only drawback would be the correction end of things providing that this is what is needed. It can take a little more effort and patience to make perfect, but one ackomplished, you're set providing your wash regiment is up to par.
Porsche Pilot
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- Jun 25, 2010
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Yes, in theory, but not in practice. Case in point, I did a Pre Delivery Inspection (PDI) for a client recently at a MB dealer in S. Florida. Through my instruction, he vehamently requested when special ordering his new vehicle that they not lay a single hand on it when it arrived at their store. I was to do any and all physical prep of the vehicle per their agreement. He actually tracked the vehicle through final delivery right up to the time of day it was to arrive there. As soon as it did, I was dispatched there to inspect it. I can assure you that no one ever washed or buffed this vehicle at the dealer. This video was filmed by me at the dealer. I am 100% confident that this damage was done at the factory:
Click for video:
Great vid David and that confirms a lot for us. We are all quick to blame dealers for improper prep when in fact, most leave the factory marred in some way. I prepped a Porsche the same method as you...only hands on it were mine when delivered. Yep, marred.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
umi000
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- Jan 14, 2011
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Not really - you noticed he didn't mention Ceramiclear paint at all, just a general discussion on paint scratches. I think he was just taking the opportunity to market one of his products - perfectly within his rights, if the forum mods aren't objecting, but a bit too blatant for me.
Anyway, that's my impression of the post - rather not derail this thread any further, so I'll stop posting about it
Perfections
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- Aug 17, 2010
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Mike, an interesting product your friend might wanna try out is vecdor nano respray paint to recover the section that was abraded through, this paint works kinda the same as cermi in the fact it's only about 2mils but it's a lot harder clear coat with even more resistance to chemicals Its also reasonably priced.
Its also reasonably priced.WRAPT C5Z06
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- Nov 12, 2009
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VERY, VERY good information, David! :dblthumb2:Mike – This is a great article! I’ve not only corrected many vehicles equipped with finickey clears, but ones with the notorious (and misrepresented) CeramiClear finish. This finish is actually a joint effort of PPG and Mercedes of Germany. PPG also makes/has made a few other similar clears for BMW 5, 6 & 7 Series (Powered Clear) and Ferrari (I can’t recall the name), Infinity (Self Healing), Nissan (Scratch Guard).
Mercedes is the only manufacturer using CeramiClear on most of their overseas manufactured vehicles. Mercedes produced in the US, such as their ML , GL and GLK trucks, do not have CeramiClear as well as any vehicle with a Carbon Fiber substrate like the Black Series and SLR which is actually painted in England (McClaren). As a matter of fact, I’ve been told my one of the PPG factory reps that the clear on the SLR (which is extremely soft) can actually be reflowed with a dedicated heat lamp making it more rigid.
The nano-particles in the CeramiClear system is not only in place on the top surface portion of the clearcoat, but throughout the entire clearcoat surface, but for the most part the “hard” attributes are highly concentrated in the upper .2-.3 mils of the surface. So, this special feature can be removed with heavy buffing and/or sanding. Because this surface is so hard in nature, it would take multiple hard buffing sessions to conquer this.
Mercedes started using CeramiClear finishes around 2003 and can be identified by inspection of their Vin tag located on the driver’s door jam. Look to the paint code and it should have a “C” indicating that it is indeed CeramiClear.
Despite what Eric mentioned, CeramiClear can and is being applied in the refinish industry. I actually know of 2 shops in the S. Florida area that are spraying CeramiClear and charging a premium for it too. Hope this helps!