Why Paint Cleaners are Important

[Flannigan]

This is an exerpt from a detail write up I did. I know not everyone reads show and shines and I felt this was important, so I decided to make a thread about it. Hopefully it helps out.

I have seen a lot of talk lately about whether paint cleaners are useful, or a worthwhile step in detailing. I personally ALWAY use a paint cleaner when applying a fresh coat of wax, especially after claying. Paint cleaners will deep clean below surface contaminants, and even clean up light marring left behind from claying or some improper wash techniques.

Here is how the paint looked after claying.

I then hit it with P21S on a green BS pad, nothing crazy, just two quick passes with light pressure. Here is a 50/50

And all done

As you can see this step, which took less than 45 minutes to do on the whole truck, greatly improved the overall look of the paint, and made sure the wax will bond properly which will lead to better durability.

Obviously paint cleaners are not going to remove heavy defects or RIDS, but I think people overlook them to quickly clean up light marring and deep clean the paint.

 

[Mike PhillipsMike Phillips is verified member.]

Very nice article with excellent pictures that really drive home your points.

I'd say a majority of the time everyone gets all caught up in creating swirl free flawless finishes and there's nothing wrong with that but sometimes the right procedures for some cars and some people would be to keep it simple and simply use a paint cleaner or pre-wax cleaner.

I also have an article on this in my article list under the topic heading,


Compounds - Polishes - Paint Cleaners - Cleaner/Polishes - Pure Polishes - Glazes



Nice job Dave, thanks for taking the time to share this...



:dblthumb2:

 

[swanicyouth]

Awesome example I guess P21S paint lotion then does have some abrasives... I thought it cleaned the paint chemically 100%. Maybe could even use it as a finish polish???

 

[SeaJay's]

Nice read Dave. I personally don't use paint cleaners as often as maybe I should. Your article has inspired me to look into a few....

Just what I need it something else to buy! lol

 

[rwright]

How much cut does that pad have? What pad is similar from Lake Country?

 

[Mobile detail]

I though cleaners didn't remove swirls, they just increased shine and bonding?.??

 

[Flannigan]

Thanks for the feedback guys, this product does not have cut itself, but is capable of slight correction with a polishing pad. The green BS pad is similar to the white LC flat pad.

 

[pcw25]

What was your tool of choice?

 

[rwright]

By the way Dave, the Rover turned out very nice.

 

[Gachrid]

Looks great! So do recommend using a cleanser before every new wax? Should it be used before a new compound and polish process as well?

 

[CEE DOG]

Nicely done DAVEY! rops:

 

[FUNX650]

Paint cleaners will deep clean below surface contaminants, and even clean up light marring left behind from claying or some improper wash techniques.


Obviously paint cleaners are not going to remove heavy defects or RIDS, but I think people overlook them to quickly clean up light marring and deep clean the paint.

If the... Below exerpted information from the Mike Phillips article, that he so kindly provided in this thread, (regarding paint cleaners/pre-wax cleaners), is true...

Paint Cleaner
A liquid, paste or cream that relies primarily on chemical cleaning agents to remove any light topical contamination or surface impurities to restore a clean, smooth surface as part of a process to prepare a painted finish for application of a wax, paint sealant or coating. Paint cleaners are for very light cleaning and not normally intended to be used like an abrasive polish to remove below surface defects.

Pre-Wax Cleaner
Similar or the same as a paint cleaner. Most pre-wax cleaners are complimentary products in that they are part of a specific brand's system in which the pre-wax cleaner is matched to a wax or paint sealant. There's a chemical synergistic compatibility to ensure maximum performance between products that might not be achieved using products from outside the brand. (only the chemist would know)

Then, if you don't mind, explain how paint cleaners perform the functions that you claim they do in your above statements from your OP.
(Such as: "deep cleaning below surface contaminates"; "deep clean the paint")


Also...If it is true that a paintwork cleaner/pre-wax cleaner "cleans" by either: use of chemical-means only, ultra-fine-cut abrasives only, or a combination of both...

-Why, then, in your opinion, would not: ultra-fine-cut-abrasives polishes be the better choice in cleaning the paint?
Don't these type polishes also have chemicals/abrasives cleaning ablities?
-And depending on machine/pad choice...Wouldn't a dedicated polish containing ultra-fine-cut-abrasives be more likely to, and be successful in: the "cleaning of paint process"...Because they will abrade paint...Which in turn will prepare paint to be: LSP ready?

IMO:...Paintwork Cleaners and Pre-Wax Cleaners are:

-Extraneous; non-essential; a way to try to sell you yet another bottle to put on your shelf; another trip around vehicles...wearing you, and vehicles' paint out;
just "make-work"; and trying to get more money from you!!!


Don't we: "Clean" Paint...In these 'basic-steps'?:

1. Car-Washing
2. Tar removal/degrease
3. Decomtaminate
4. Clay
5. Polish...Then
6. LSP

-Anything beyond this...Will probably call for perhaps some use of more aggressive compounds, followed by several steps including: lighter/less-aggressive compounds/polishes.

If anything... I would rather use an AIO/Cleaner-Wax/Cleaner-Sealant...Instead of Paintwork Cleaners/Pre-wax Cleaners. But that's, more than likely, just me.



Bob

 

[Bunky]

If anything... I would rather use an AIO/Cleaner-Wax/Cleaner-Sealant...Instead of Paintwork Cleaners/Pre-wax Cleaners. But that's, more than likely, just me.

I think people use the terms interchangeably but as usual some are looking for order in the marketing world. This is where the word polish can mean almost anything besides (polish: Something to make it look purdier.)

A polishing pad (like B&S Green) with some lube (the paint cleaner or pre-wax cleaner) could do correction on it owns as well so this contributes the results.

 

[Setec Astronomy]

Not to pile on along with FUNX, but I thought all of these pre-WAX cleaners were partially glazes. Here's an excerpt from the Pinnacle Paintwork Cleansing Lotion page:

"It makes swirls less noticeable or invisible by rounding over the top edge of the swirl, robbing sunlight of a sharp edge to cause a reflection. Micro-fine fillers (1.4 micron) in the lotion then fill in the swirl. When you wax over these fillers, most swirls will disappear."

And from the Blackfire Gloss Enhancing Polish page (emphasis added):

"BLACKFIRE Gloss Enhancing Polish is a combination finishing polish and glaze but is not designed to remove swirls, spots or paint defects. What this polish does do, in one step, is create the same liquid wetness that would normally require using a separate polish and glaze. A "glaze" is not required with this polish. It is built into the formula."

I thought the P21S Gloss Enhancing Polish was pretty much the same idea. Which is fine, and may be an appropriate step in many cases, but your initial post claims that these products will "even clean up light marring", while in actuality they are probably filling/hiding them. Which again, is fine, let's just be clear about what's going on.

 

[Largebore]

Getting confusing..

 

[Flannigan]

If the... Below exerpted information from the Mike Phillips article, that he so kindly provided in this thread, (regarding paint cleaners/pre-wax cleaners), is true...



Then, if you don't mind, explain how paint cleaners perform the functions that you claim they do in your above statements from your OP.
(Such as: "deep cleaning below surface contaminates"; "deep clean the paint")


Also...If it is true that a paintwork cleaner/pre-wax cleaner "cleans" by either: use of chemical-means only, ultra-fine-cut abrasives only, or a combination of both...

When coupled with a polishing pad, any sort of lubricant can be capable of correction. I have in the past used distilled water and a finishing pad to get the softest of the soft paint to finish out flawlessly. If you used this product on a finishing pad you would be no means see the same results that I am showing in this thread.

-Why, then, in your opinion, would not: ultra-fine-cut-abrasives polishes be the better choice in cleaning the paint?
Don't these type polishes also have chemicals/abrasives cleaning ablities?
-And depending on machine/pad choice...Wouldn't a dedicated polish containing ultra-fine-cut-abrasives be more likely to, and be successful in: the "cleaning of paint process"...Because they will abrade paint...Which in turn will prepare paint to be: LSP ready?

It is true that a fine polish would provide the same, if not a little more correction, however there are a couple drawbacks. First if you are using a DAT polish you have to spend enough time to make the passes to break the polish down. In this case I only made two quick low pressure passes, which took less than 45 minutes to complete on the entire vehicle. I would honestly like to see someone use 106fa or po85 on a vehicle that quickly. Also this product is super easy to wipeoff, and doesn't contain any oils or fillers that need to be wiped off with ipa or eraser prior to waxings.

IMO:...Paintwork Cleaners and Pre-Wax Cleaners are:

-Extraneous; non-essential; a way to try to sell you yet another bottle to put on your shelf; another trip around vehicles...wearing you, and vehicles' paint out;
just "make-work"; and trying to get more money from you!!!

I would agree if you are doing correction work that paint cleaners are an unneeded step. However, in this case it is a great way to give the customer a little more for their money, and make sure that your lsp is going to last longer.

Don't we: "Clean" Paint...In these 'basic-steps'?:

1. Car-Washing
2. Tar removal/degrease
3. Decomtaminate
4. Clay
5. Polish...Then
6. LSP

We aren't talking using a paint cleaner after polish.

-Anything beyond this...Will probably call for perhaps some use of more aggressive compounds, followed by several steps including: lighter/less-aggressive compounds/polishes.

If anything... I would rather use an AIO/Cleaner-Wax/Cleaner-Sealant...Instead of Paintwork Cleaners/Pre-wax Cleaners. But that's, more than likely, just me.



Bob

I have used AIO's plenty of times but again they can take more time to break down, and give a different look to the vehicle. Use what you like, but don't try to poke holes in this process just because you think it's a waste. This is the exact kind of information floating around the forum that IMO is wrong.

Not to pile on along with FUNX, but I thought all of these pre-WAX cleaners were partially glazes. Here's an excerpt from the Pinnacle Paintwork Cleansing Lotion page:

"It makes swirls less noticeable or invisible by rounding over the top edge of the swirl, robbing sunlight of a sharp edge to cause a reflection. Micro-fine fillers (1.4 micron) in the lotion then fill in the swirl. When you wax over these fillers, most swirls will disappear."

And from the Blackfire Gloss Enhancing Polish page (emphasis added):

"BLACKFIRE Gloss Enhancing Polish is a combination finishing polish and glaze but is not designed to remove swirls, spots or paint defects. What this polish does do, in one step, is create the same liquid wetness that would normally require using a separate polish and glaze. A "glaze" is not required with this polish. It is built into the formula."

I thought the P21S Gloss Enhancing Polish was pretty much the same idea. Which is fine, and may be an appropriate step in many cases, but your initial post claims that these products will "even clean up light marring", while in actuality they are probably filling/hiding them. Which again, is fine, let's just be clear about what's going on.

I am being VERY clear about what is going on. You posted info from two products that weren't used here. Please go research P21s and then come back and tell me if it is a glaze or a pure cleaner. I'm not pulling one over here, just giving information that is usually looked over on this forum.

Getting confusing..

That isn't surprising since a couple people in this thread are being difficult for no reason. If you would like any other information please feel free to PM me. rops:

 

[mrGolfRider]

Thanks for all the info Dave. What are some other paint cleaners you would recommend? I need to get a sample of that P21S!

Sent from my HTC Sensation using Tapatalk 2

 

[Flannigan]

Thanks for all the info Dave. What are some other paint cleaners you would recommend? I need to get a sample of that P21S!

Sent from my HTC Sensation using Tapatalk 2

I have tons of paint cleaners. A lot of times I like to match the paint cleaner with the wax I'm using, if I'm not doing correction of course. Dodo Juice Lime Prime Lite is great before Dodo Juice waxes. This product does contain fillers however. Swissvax Cleaner Fluid is another good one, and improved durability of SV waxes dramatically. In the end though I think P21s is one of the best all around true paint cleaners.

 

[Flannigan]

Here is a post in another thread on another forum started by a VERY experienced detailer. Please see another reason why paint cleaners are important.

Paintwork cleansers are typically used to clean the paint well, thus promoting a better bond between the paint and your LSP. This in turn will improve the durability of your LSP. I have a Ford Focus in my shop that was in for a wash and wax, but after washing the paint still looked a little dull. Using my PC and a white pad, I applied some Werkstat Prime Strong. It was applied at speed 3, one panel at a time and then wiped down. For illustrative purposes, I used one pad for the entire car. Usually I would use 2 or 3 if the paint was this dirty.

 

[RPPM]

Agree on needing clean paint for a strong base to build from, but Werkstatt Prime Strong is an AIO, not just a paint cleaner. I usually use an AIO for my base, then top with a Collinite. I think either way, you are accomplishing the same thing. If you are planning on two coats for protection, use of an AIO can actually save you time, as it is one coat by itself.