PH Balanced Shampoo ??

addysdaddy said:
I'm interpreting this to say as consumers we should select a soap based on price point and ignore all the hype and marketing - apparently in spite of their efforts it's all good.
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Unfortunately it not uncommon for a shampoo which sells to the brand for well less than £10 a gallon to suddenly cost the same amount for 10 times less product. Really, you have to try for yourself and basically ignore all marketing nonsense. Reviews from your peers are helpful but don't trust those on UK forums, too many 'detailers' are getting paid to post positive reviews.

Basically, if a brand is marketing the life out of their range, be suspicious. Then, buy sensible and don't fork out silly money unless you know it to be worth it - often big price tags are there to encourage big spenders, not because the product is really worth it.
 
PiPUK said:
Unfortunately it not uncommon for a shampoo which sells to the brand for well less than £10 a gallon to suddenly cost the same amount for 10 times less product. Really, you have to try for yourself and basically ignore all marketing nonsense. Reviews from your peers are helpful but don't trust those on UK forums, too many 'detailers' are getting paid to post positive reviews.

Basically, if a brand is marketing the life out of their range, be suspicious. Then, buy sensible and don't fork out silly money unless you know it to be worth it - often big price tags are there to encourage big spenders, not because the product is really worth it.
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Good advice for all things detail related (or otherwise for that matter) Thanks again for sharing your insights.
 
VISITOR said:
3D Pink Soap. "Rinses effortlessly from the surface and will not leave any residue or additional protective or enhancing elements behind."
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3D pink soap uses Alkylbenzenesulfonic acid and Sodium Laureth Sulfate with a little NaCl (<2%) and NaOH (<2%).
 
Bunky said:
3D pink soap uses Alkylbenzenesulfonic acid and Sodium Laureth Sulfate with a little NaCl (<2%) and NaOH (<2%).
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Just another example of "salting the soap"...
and why not go ahead and throw in some highly corrosive alkaline to boot.



Bob
 
Bunky said:
3D pink soap uses Alkylbenzenesulfonic acid and Sodium Laureth Sulfate with a little NaCl (<2%) and NaOH (<2%).
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So, if it contains 2% of anything - when you dilute a few ozs in like 5 gallons - does it really matter? The 2% will go down to like hundredths of a percent.
 
2% sodium hydroxide is enough to render a solution corrosive, sufficient that it should only be transported by qualified carriers. I could calculate it but cannot be bothered, will do it with a pH meter tomorrow - I guess 100:1 will still be pH 12 or more.

Anyhow, more important is that, in that formulation, the NaOH is not a problem. The sulphonic acid (which is a very common surfactant) is neutralised to made a sodium sulphonate salt with the result being somewhere around neutral (I guess). It would be a bit like a blend of hydrochloric acid and sodium hydroxide. Two nasty chemicals on their own but, when together, end up with nothing more than common salt (sodium chloride) and water. In the example above, without the NaOH, the product would almost certainly be strongly acidic and corrosive as a result.
 
Bunky said:
3D pink soap uses Alkylbenzenesulfonic acid and Sodium Laureth Sulfate with a little NaCl (<2%) and NaOH (<2%).
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Foaming agent, thickening agent and balancing pH is my guess

:o

FUNX725 said:
Just another example of "salting the soap"...
and why not go ahead and throw in some highly corrosive alkaline to boot.



Bob
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What if I threw you a salt curve ball?

-Brian



What about a glass pH electrode? Do we need to bust one of those out??
 
PiPUK said:
2% sodium hydroxide is enough to render a solution corrosive, sufficient that it should only be transported by qualified carriers. I could calculate it but cannot be bothered, will do it with a pH meter tomorrow - I guess 100:1 will still be pH 12 or more.
.
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The soap is being diluted approximately 1:100, not sodium hydroxide (which is starting at 2% of the soap). So, assuming the soap is about 1oz : 1 gallon dilution (let's round to 1:100), that means the final dilution of sodium hydroxide is approximately 0.02%. This is negating anything acidic in the soap to that could balance out the high pH of the NaOH. I'm sorry, I just don't believe 3D is selling a bucket car wash soap that is anywhere near pH 12 when diluted in solution as directed.
 
swanicyouth said:
The soap is being diluted approximately 1:100, not sodium hydroxide (which is starting at 2% of the soap). So, assuming the soap is about 1oz : 1 gallon dilution (let's round to 1:100), that means the final dilution of sodium hydroxide is approximately 0.02%. This is negating anything acidic in the soap to that could balance out the high pH of the NaOH. I'm sorry, I just don't believe 3D is selling a bucket car wash soap that is anywhere near pH 12 when diluted in solution as directed.
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it's used 1oz. per gallon...

- Great for car washes, detailers, and more.
- Concentrated soap
- High Foam car wash shampoo
- Rinses fast
- Ph Balanced
- Green and biodegradable car wash soap
- Water saving product
 
FUNX725 said:
It would be very considerate of you if I was given the time to locate my "salted-away" catcher's mitt...OK? Thanks.

Bob
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:applause::urtheman:



@PipUK or anyone that can answer- What about glass pH electrodes? Would this be accurate when measuring pH levels of a shampoo solution in cannons, guns and buckets? I could probably get my hands on one that's water proof. However, I'm not sure if it's worth a few phone calls.

I think it would be fun to do some testing with popular shampoos.
 
Bkazzle said:
What about glass pH electrodes? Would this be accurate when measuring pH levels of a shampoo solution in cannons, guns and buckets? I could probably get my hands on one that's water proof. However, I'm not sure if it's worth a few phone calls.

I think it would be fun to do some testing with popular
shampoos.
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IMO:
•Use of a glass electrode pH-meter...with the calibration of it with buffers...(and worrying about things like "ionic strength"):
-Would only be necessary if the pH reading's accuracy is almost desperately wanted/needed to be within ~1/2 a pH unit, or so...for any given car-wash shampoo's solution/concentration/dilution.

•I could be wrong....
But:
-I don't see where this is the situation at hand.

__________________________________________________


•It is FUN to perform car-wash shampoo DIY pH-testing:
-I've used litmus papers before, for testing against manufacturers' pH NOs.
-My testing results are so subjective:
(RE: color-comparisons) that: They border on being objective! :)

Bob
 
swanicyouth said:
The soap is being diluted approximately 1:100, not sodium hydroxide (which is starting at 2% of the soap). So, assuming the soap is about 1oz : 1 gallon dilution (let's round to 1:100), that means the final dilution of sodium hydroxide is approximately 0.02%. This is negating anything acidic in the soap to that could balance out the high pH of the NaOH. I'm sorry, I just don't believe 3D is selling a bucket car wash soap that is anywhere near pH 12 when diluted in solution as directed.
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You missed the second paragraph and quoted only the bit about NaOH generic...

As before, the sodium hydroxide is there to neutralise the sulphonic acid. The two in isolation are extreme pH but together (as per the HCl/NaOH=salt example) are going to be somewhere near neutral). So this product will most likely be somewhere near to neutral.

The information about sodium hydroxide was for general info - it looks like you 0.02% sodium hydroxide would be something like 12.1 - this is why you should not be using products intended for machine use, in a hand wash bucket.

I guess this shows you have to be very careful with what science you are interpreting. As I alluded to previously, I think that detailers are trying to get too far into the science. I may not be helping on this but when someone is throwing around scientific language, it is hard to refute it without talking more science! Detailers would generally be better served worrying about the broad details. pH number is basically irrelevant - ask yourself is it in the ranges discussed:

less that 1 - strongly acidic
1-5 - moderately acidic
5-9 - mostly neutral
9-13 - moderately alkaline
greater than 13 - strong alkaline

The precise numbers of each group is subject to interpretation (I am not sure I even gave the same numbers last time...). To almost every detailer, knowing where you stood on this scale would be enough. With this in mind, I will now include something to this effect on all our MSDS. Basically, all this detail is overwhelming the (generally) non-scientific detailing community. I don't mean to sound rude but it seems increasingly clear that, with the best intentions, scientific information which is reproduced online is generally done so with insufficient understanding so we end up with misinterpretation and inaccurate information becoming accepted dogma (which is really why I started coming here!).
 
I spoke with Gary at Four Star yesterday and he told me they shoot for a ph level somewhere between 8.5-9.5 for Ultima Paint Guard Wash. This falls into the mostly neutral category based on the scale PiPUK last posted. So regardless of the marketing copy and based on this discussion - this is where I want the ph levels of my car shampoo to reside. The science is beyond my complete understanding but the take-away message is clear.
 
FUNX725 said:
IMO:
•Use of a glass electrode pH-meter...with the calibration of it with buffers...(and worrying about things like "ionic strength"):
-Would only be necessary if the pH reading's accuracy is almost desperately wanted/needed to be within ~1/2 a pH unit, or so...for any given car-wash shampoo's solution/concentration/dilution.

•I could be wrong....
But:
-I don't see where this is the situation at hand.

__________________________________________________


•It is FUN to perform car-wash shampoo DIY pH-testing:
-I've used litmus papers before, for testing against manufacturers' pH NOs.
-My testing results are so subjective:
(RE: color-comparisons) that: They border on being objective! :)

Bob
Click to expand...

Thanks

Maybe I'll do some research as I know nothing about these meters and how they work exactly. It was just a thought and if I can get one, maybe I can do some testing with shampoos.

I have ~20 shampoos and I love testing claims and/or common beliefs...etc.
 
PiPUK said:
Ythis is why you should not be using products intended for machine use, in a hand wash bucket.
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What do you mean by "products intended for machine use in a hand wash bucket"?

You find NaOH in many household products..including toothpaste.
 
Bunky said:
What do you mean by "products intended for machine use in a hand wash bucket"?
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Not to speak for PiPUK, but I think he's referring to those aggressive snow foams used in Europe, which are spray on/rinse off, that you wouldn't want to use in a bucket and put your hand in there because they would be harsh on your skin.
 
Setec Astronomy said:
Not to speak for PiPUK, but I think he's referring to those aggressive snow foams used in Europe, which are spray on/rinse off, that you wouldn't want to use in a bucket and put your hand in there because they would be harsh on your skin.
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Ok. I can say Ultima Paint Guard Wash seems to irritate my skin more than some other soaps but I now always use nitrile gloves anyway.
 
addysdaddy said:
I spoke with Gary at Four Star yesterday and he told me they shoot for a ph level somewhere between 8.5-9.5 for Ultima Paint Guard Wash. This falls into the mostly neutral category based on the scale PiPUK last posted. So regardless of the marketing copy and based on this discussion - this is where I want the ph levels of my car shampoo to reside. The science is beyond my complete understanding but the take-away message is clear.
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That's a bit basic, but not too bad. Kind of lines up with my experience of this not being the best stuff to use with a regular carnauba wax.

My guess would be the stuff I listed (P21S, Born to Be Mild, and Vic's Soap) are probably a little closer to neutral.

I'm sorry, I don't buy that the above manufacturers (and some others) are just buying any soap and touting it as wax safe with at least doing some tests or having some rational.

Some companies I have no faith in - others I do. Maybe I'm just naive. Maybe someone could answer, but is there an inexpensive way to check pH, since it's reported the $10 meters won't work? Will test strips work?

Because, I have like 25 or so soaps and would be willing to test them at dilution if I don't have to spend like a thousand dollars for a machine.
 
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