Bunky
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Optimum's MSDS is available if you search for it.
PH Balanced Shampoo ??
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Optimum's MSDS is available if you search for it.
Setec Astronomy
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I don't need it, do I? Ok, you made me look at it--is that the wash you said has ethanol in it? It's ethoxylated alcohol, which is a surfactant. Or are you pointing to the Sodium Sulfate, which is a salt?
Setec Astronomy
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Interesting, who knew those two products had ethanol. I have to say I'm a little confused with Dr. G's remarks about salt, since Optimum Car Wash has that sodium sulfate, which is a salt of sulphuric acid. I notice the Meg's washes have "sodium salt" but it's a different CAS than sodium sulfate, and I guess some soaps actually have sodium chloride in them. I'm sure PiPUK will sort this out for us.
Calendyr
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P&G's Dawn dish 'soap', and Ivory dish 'soap' pH is 7.4.
{Dawn Pure Essentials, however, is said to be pH neutral}
Strange coincidence that Human blood
shares the same 7.4 pH as Dawn!
Bob
Bob, are you implying... that... they use human blood to manufacture DAWN SOAP!!! OMG!!!!!!
I think we are watching fight club too much
I can see no significant advantage in using a pH balanced shampoo. As PiPuk and others have said, it's complicated. I guess the short answer is, in order to make a shampoo that stripped wax solely due to pH, the pH would have to be dangerously low or high (and the molarity high) . It would burn your skin - quickly. They can't do that or they would be sued out of existence. It's far easier to strip wax using a mild organic solvent, like IPA. I just don't see any advantages to taking a weak pH 9 and balancing it to a weak pH 7.
Common salt is a very common viscosity modifier. Basically, anionic surfactants (like the ether sulphates which is in many wash products) can be thickened with NaCl. However, salt is a general term which covers any neutralisation product. So yes, you got it, when you pH balance a product, you are forming salts. Yes, salt can be a bit corrosive but the level of salt which makes it into your wash bucket is miniscule so I do not buy into that concern. With respect to the MSDS, salt could easily go without a mention - it is at low level and has no chemical hazard. Certainly in the EU, it is not obligatory under the main regulation covering MSDS.
Has anyone ever actually done a test on a salt containing wash product and demonstrated it doing damage to a vehicle? I strongly suspect that this is something someone 'high profile' has mentioned at some point, it has been reproduced online by enthusiasts and has made its way into detailing myth (rather like Dawn being a guaranteed stripper!).
Yes, you would have to go really high. Some waxes may strip with the likes of IPA but you would likely need 13+ pH to achieve it with a water based product. At 1% level, I would not expect even strongly alkaline products to be reliable at removing a good wax. Do keep in mind that my view is that a good LSP (which will include modern waxes which should have more than simple wax components) is extremely hard to remove - IPA should do very little, likewise APC etc.
Calendyr
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As far as I know their presence was mentionned but no claim to damage was made.
I have seen a video of someone damaging the paint of a car with a strong degreaser. The guy was degreasing the engine and some of the product landed on the fender. Once he was done with the engine there was very visible damage to the fender's paint. He had to compound for a while to get rid of it. I don't know if the degreaser simply removed a LSP or if the paint itself was damaged but the difference in color was very distinctive and the shape left no doubt some liquid was there and the damage was the result of it.
Setec Astronomy
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This is getting a little out of context now--Dr. G was making the point that I think you made further back in the thread, oh shoot, now I'm not sure. Again, this was back in the early days of Autopia Forums and Dr. G was invited to a live chat along with Chris Thomas. I'm looking back at the transcript that I saved and it's not entirely clear at some points who said what. And bear in mind this was live chat so these may not be answers that were given lengthy consideration before posting.
The question was asked "how different are car wash soaps from Dawn?". An answer was given (not sure that it was Dr. G answering, because people were talking about an article at a (commercial) carwash site on why not to use dish detergent ) "Dawn and in general detergents have a good bit of DDBSA (Sodium salt of dodecybenzene sulfonic acid) which can readily strip wax and sealants. Car wash soaps on the other hand have a lot of foamers such as ethoxylated alchohols with no detergency."
However, Dr. G did add this: "Salt is used to adjust the viscosity of some car wash soaps. We do not add any salt since Optimum Car Wash is very concentrated and fairly viscous."
I think you (PiPUK) stated earlier in this thread, that if you have a lot of actives the product becomes viscous on its own. As far as salt being damaging, I don't know where that "myth" comes from; I can see how the concept of salt being used to thicken cheap soaps turns into "salt is bad" and how that morphs into "salt is damaging" and "salt is corrosive, anyone who drives in winter knows that".
Anyway, I guess I just muddied this up more and beat it to death, for sure!
FUNX650
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•Never know for sure.Bob, are you implying... that... they use human blood to manufacture DAWN SOAP!!! OMG!!!!!!
I think we are watching fight club too much
•According to the last several Censuses:
-The population for the southwest corner of Ohio
has seen a dramatic (drastic) decrease.
•I say that they've got to be going somewhere...
-Not everyone in that area is moving back to Kentucky.
Bob
Not sure what Dr G would mean here. Alcohol ethoxylates are far from having no 'detergency' and I would contend that (depending on the precise product - there are literally hundreds of alcohol ethoxylates which are all slightly different) they can be every bit as aggressive. As far as car wash products, DDBSA is everywhere so not sure why Dr G suggested it was absent from such products.
Setec Astronomy
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Perhaps I didn't preface that strongly enough that I'm not sure that quote was Dr. G, it could have been someone else in the chat who pasted that in from another source (the transcript didn't come out very clean). The only quote I'm sure was from Dr. G was that he doesn't add salt to Optimum Car Wash.
Bob, you're an interesting person that I'd like to meet.
I probably won't see this thread again for a few days. I was wondering: Do you ever make the cruise-ins near Rural King in Hamilton? I'll be there Saturday night looking at all the swirls. LOL! Would be nice to meet you there.
I probably won't see this thread again for a few days. I was wondering: Do you ever make the cruise-ins near Rural King in Hamilton? I'll be there Saturday night looking at all the swirls. LOL! Would be nice to meet you there.
beamerstrumpet
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All I know is after reading all 8 pages of this thread is that PiPUK is way smarter on this than ill ever be (or care to LOLOL) It is nice to hear someone who I can only figure as a chemist. I know I could never refute his wisdom and sound like anything other than a cave man.
:wow:
Ill just use what I like and not worry about the nitty gritty, and ill keep his chart on hand for when I have some tough dirt or tar
rops:
:wow:
Ill just use what I like and not worry about the nitty gritty, and ill keep his chart on hand for when I have some tough dirt or tar
rops:
FUNX650
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Hi Bill...
•Never been to those cruise-ins.
-Will not be able to be there this Saturday night...
-Maybe next Saturday(?)
•Don't be surprised if you see swirls in mine:
-Haven't done much of any cleaning-up this year.
•How about me Pm-ing you next week, one way or the other?
Bob
Calendyr
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All I know is after reading all 8 pages of this thread is that PiPUK is way smarter on this than ill ever be (or care to LOLOL) It is nice to hear someone who I can only figure as a chemist. I know I could never refute his wisdom and sound like anything other than a cave man.
:wow:
Ill just use what I like and not worry about the nitty gritty, and ill keep his chart on hand for when I have some tough dirt or tar
Yes but can he cook blue meth? That is the ultimate test
beamerstrumpet
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:iagree:
Baaawwwhhhaaaaa Im the MANIm the MANIm the MAN
Baaawwwhhhaaaaa Im the MANIm the MANIm the MAN
hernandez.art13
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^ probably lol (kidding) but :dunno: