PH Balanced Shampoo ??

LOL swanic, you can just use some pH (litmus) paper. I'm pretty sure I did this some years ago on a different forum as part of the "Dawn is evil" argument. pH 9 is pretty typical for detergents, which covers car wash, (hair) shampoo, body wash, dish soap, liquid hand soap etc.

EDIT: You can go to that south American river and look for pH paper and get a lot of options, or I know you like eBay.
 
LOL swanic, you can just use some pH (litmus) paper. I'm pretty sure I did this some years ago on a different forum as part of the "Dawn is evil" argument. pH 9 is pretty typical for detergents, which covers car wash, (hair) shampoo, body wash, dish soap, liquid hand soap etc.



EDIT: You can go to that south American river and look for pH paper and get a lot of options, or I know you like eBay.


Ordered.

Tests will follow.
 
What do you mean by "products intended for machine use in a hand wash bucket"?

You find NaOH in many household products..including toothpaste.

I mean alkaline cleaners, as Setec Astronomy alluded to. They are rather like APCs.

I realise about sodium hydroxide which is the reason for my discussing neutralisation. This is why this is a bit difficult for an amateur - it takes me no more than a glance to say whether something like NaOH is there for functionality of just pH adjustment, but it is alot tougher without some experience in the area.

I'm sorry, I don't buy that the above manufacturers (and some others) are just buying any soap and touting it as wax safe with at least doing some tests or having some rational.

Some companies I have no faith in - others I do. Maybe I'm just naive. Maybe someone could answer, but is there an inexpensive way to check pH, since it's reported the $10 meters won't work? Will test strips work?

Because, I have like 25 or so soaps and would be willing to test them at dilution if I don't have to spend like a thousand dollars for a machine.

I am not saying they don't test, but the reality is that it is verging on pointless to concern yourself with stripping - I haven't got a single shampoo type product which would strip wax and couldn't make one that is skin safe, even if I wanted to. As I have said before, it could be that my LSPs are miles better than others out there, but I suspect it is more down to people failing to adequately rinse away residues. What I was saying was that many companies do not develop the products for purpose, many do not develop at all and will just come to someone like me, tell me what they want it to do and I will give them a bunch of options to choose from.

As for your testing, everything that would be safe for hand wash use should fall into my 'mostly neutral' category. If it doesn't, you should not use it for hand washing as it will damage your skin.
 
Here is the biochemist in me....

If you add a dilution (as per manufacture) of a product claiming to be pH neutral (pH 7) to water which was treated and slightly alkaline then should you bother with the argument of pH neutral any further?

If you want to "cut through" road grime, will you be served with a pH neutral or should you be looking for alkaline or acidic instead?

I think Bob has the best posting "for layman" in the ranges of pH. Personally I think it is about personal evaluation of effectiveness in cleaning, safety to the LSP and the lack of residue left behind. So test and test and test as YMMV depending on a lot of environmental factor you cannot control (including the water processing plans ability to sanitize and neutralize the water before distribution.... but I fear that the governmental standards applied to the water treatment facilities will not allow you truly neutral water.
 
If you add a dilution (as per manufacture) of a product claiming to be pH neutral (pH 7) to water which was treated and slightly alkaline then should you bother with the argument of pH neutral any further?

If you want to "cut through" road grime, will you be served with a pH neutral or should you be looking for alkaline or acidic instead?

I have noted about the water pH as well. I don't know what you guys have but it is common in my part of the world for the water to be somewhere between 7.5 and 8. So trying to be really anal and shooting for a diluted pH of bang on 7 is just unreasonable (and pointless).

As for what you want to cut through road grime - alkalinity. Most soils are slightly acidic and road grime is oily as well, so elevated pH wins every time. Acids are only really used in cleaning when there is some specific problem to be dealt with (e.g. bathroom cleaners are often acidic because the main problem is soap scums and scale type soils, which are generally alkaline).
 
Before I got a water softener, my water was considered hard (at least 7 grains so moderate hardness) with a ph 9.

So what is the role of Ethyl Alcohol in soap? I read it helps make soap transparent or dissolve fatty acids.
 
I mean alkaline cleaners, as Setec Astronomy alluded to. They are rather like APCs.



I realise about sodium hydroxide which is the reason for my discussing neutralisation. This is why this is a bit difficult for an amateur - it takes me no more than a glance to say whether something like NaOH is there for functionality of just pH adjustment, but it is alot tougher without some experience in the area.







I am not saying they don't test, but the reality is that it is verging on pointless to concern yourself with stripping - I haven't got a single shampoo type product which would strip wax and couldn't make one that is skin safe, even if I wanted to. As I have said before, it could be that my LSPs are miles better than others out there, but I suspect it is more down to people failing to adequately rinse away residues. What I was saying was that many companies do not develop the products for purpose, many do not develop at all and will just come to someone like me, tell me what they want it to do and I will give them a bunch of options to choose from.



As for your testing, everything that would be safe for hand wash use should fall into my 'mostly neutral' category. If it doesn't, you should not use it for hand washing as it will damage your skin.


My experience tells me, some soaps are harsher on non-polymer carnauba waxes like Capture the Rapture, Souverän, or P21s (show car type waxes - which are still pretty popular). Some of the soaps I have found to be harsh are Maxi Suds II, Ultima Paint Guard Wash, and CG's Citrus Wash & Gloss.

I think there may be a distinction to be made between carnauba waxes and hybrid waxes/sealants. Some traditional oily waxes are actually pretty fragile IMHO. Since the polymers and what not are primarily added to increase durability - this makes sense to me.
 
So what is the role of Ethyl Alcohol in soap? I read it helps make soap transparent or dissolve fatty acids.

That is possible but any fatty acids should be neutralised otherwise is isn't really a soap at all. If you have free fatty acids, they will tend to leave oily residues. By neutralising, they will both thicken and result in the product becoming transparent (in fact, this is the very basis of soap making, fatty acid plus sodium hydroxide - the original soap).

To be honest with you, you should not have any 'soap' in a modern car wash product. I am assuming that this is an artefact of the US market but the term 'shampoo' is what most markets use. Soaps are cheap and nasty, they are not very effective for cleaning and are very sensitive to hard water. Modern surfactant will outperform them in every way which jumps to my mind.

It is hard to know what that ethanol would be doing in a product. It is not universal in shampoo/soap products so I would imagine it is just helping keep everything 'together'. In some of our more concentrated shampoos, we would use solvents for the purpose of making the product less viscous. In a cheaper product, you need salt or similar to add viscosity. Once you get beyond a certain surfactant level, you need to reduce it because it gets so viscous that it cannot be handled. It may also be that the product manufacturers just wanted the viscosity to be at a certain level (whether necessary or not) and the ethanol may be there to facilitate.
 
It is hard to know what that ethanol would be doing in a product. It is not universal in shampoo/soap products so I would imagine it is just helping keep everything 'together'. In some of our more concentrated shampoos, we would use solvents for the purpose of making the product less viscous. In a cheaper product, you need salt or similar to add viscosity. Once you get beyond a certain surfactant level, you need to reduce it because it gets so viscous that it cannot be handled. It may also be that the product manufacturers just wanted the viscosity to be at a certain level (whether necessary or not) and the ethanol may be there to facilitate.

That may make sense.
 
It is hard to know what that ethanol would be doing in a product. It is not universal in shampoo/soap products so I would imagine it is just helping keep everything 'together'.
Some anti-bacterial soaps product descriptions say they are using ethyl alcohol due it its complete evaporation...
leaves no anti-bacterial residue behind: Less chances for bacteria to "feed on" in order to mutate/become resistant, (as other anti-bacterial substances residues are known to provide).

Sounds reasonable...But: True, or not?


Bob
 

I keep trying to "balance" my soaps, but the bottles they are in don't lend themselves very well to this. Most are square or to big. And the ones that are smaller seem to be to narrow. The soap sloshes around making the bottle uneven and wobbly.

I tried balancing them on my finger, nose, head, elbow. So far Dodo B2BM has balanced the best since it is a small cylindrical bottle with a slight inward bowel at the bottom to help in centering it.


Im the MANIm the MANIm the MAN

 
Some anti-bacterial soaps product descriptions say they are using ethyl alcohol due it its complete evaporation...
leaves no anti-bacterial residue behind: Less chances for bacteria to "feed on" in order to mutate/become resistant, (as other anti-bacterial substances residues are known to provide).

Sounds reasonable...But: True, or not?


Bob

I don't know... ethanol in hand sanitisers needs to be there at about 70% to actually warrant a bactericidal 'kill' claim (there are standards which define this). So it strikes me that, for a soap to be bactericidal, it would need an addition bactericide (e.g. triclosan is popular). Assuming there is any merit to the claim made above, one must assume that the various 'soaps' and surfactants wash away with water, else they would leave residues, so why not the bactericide? Admittedly some agents will be substantive but not all. In any case, resistance is a problem way bigger than residues - if you are interested in such things, read up on the EU biocidal products regulation. This basically regulates what we can and cannot use to 'kill' things. The eventual outcome is that the range of active ingredients on the market will be dramatically limited due to the (millions of euro) requirements to register them. The range of products on the market will also be dramatically reduced because formulated products also need to be registered (still looking at millions). I don't know if you guys have comparable regulations in place, or coming in, but this is a big concern in europe. Brussels meddling will mean that, in 10 years time, it is plausible that there are mere dozens of products on the market, compared to the 10s of thousands at present. Beyond the potential for resistance, it is putting companies out of business (I am just thankful that I don't deal in biocides!).
 
:props:

I keep trying to "balance" my soaps, but the bottles they are in don't lend themselves very well to this. Most are square or to big. And the ones that are smaller seem to be to narrow. The soap sloshes around making the bottle uneven and wobbly.

I tried balancing them on my finger, nose, head, elbow. So far Dodo B2BM has balanced the best since it is a small cylindrical bottle with a slight inward bowel at the bottom to help in centering it.


Im the MANIm the MANIm the MAN

Such a tragic story!

Reminds me of Shakespeare's tragedy: Othello:

•It has been said that Tragedy:
-Gives us a high and permanent interest, beyond ourselves...in humanity, as such.
-Raises the great, the remote, and the possible: to an equality with the real, the little and the near.
-Teaches that it creates a balance of the affections.
-Makes us thoughtful spectators in the lists of life.
-Is the refiner of the species; a discipline of humanity.
-Is a main part of having a well-grounded education:
A necessary component to complete the character of a gentleman.

•Science, on the other hand, is:
-Alone, hard, and mechanical.
-It exercises the understanding upon things out of ourselves
-It leaves the affections unemployed, or engrossed with our own immediate, narrow interests.


•Othello, IMHO:
-Conveys an illustration of the above remarks.
-The moral it provides is at once equally profound, and affecting.

Bob
 
The ethanol I mentioned is in a popular car wash.
 
This is what I have seen debated. Some will says most car soaps even used concentrated on paint will not significantly affect the LSP yet others (one company in particularly) will say if you use their soaps concentrated (1 oz per gallon rather than 1 oz per 4 gallons) will strip (that word again) the LSP.

When I use a dish detergent like Dawn with undiluted I get more cleaning (dissolving power) but never feel like my hands were stripped drip caused by very strong and yet I see reports how powerful Dawn is. I just need to find some experiment to make my own conclusion.

As far as I know, all dish soaps including Dawn are PH neutral.
 
Just another example of "salting the soap"...
and why not go ahead and throw in some highly corrosive alkaline to boot.



Bob

Larry Kosilla talked about this in one of his videos. He said that when he was working for a company that manufactured car products, he was shocked to see them add salt to the mix. When he asked why they explained to him it was a cheap filler for the product. He doesn't mention what company that was but I am guessing it's probably done by all of them.
 
As far as I know, all dish soaps including Dawn are PH neutral.
P&G's Dawn dish 'soap', and Ivory dish 'soap' pH is 7.4.
{Dawn Pure Essentials, however, is said to be pH neutral}

Strange coincidence that Human blood
shares the same 7.4 pH as Dawn! :eek:

Bob
 
Larry Kosilla talked about this in one of his videos. He said that when he was working for a company that manufactured car products, he was shocked to see them add salt to the mix. When he asked why they explained to him it was a cheap filler for the product. He doesn't mention what company that was but I am guessing it's probably done by all of them.

Actually a few years ago Dwayne set up a chat with Dr. G over on Autopia Forums and the use of Dawn on cars came up and then the role of salt as a thickener--Dr. G made it a point that he doesn't do that with Optimum Car Wash.
 
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