A Plethora of Choices

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EngineerNate

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I was listening to Larry's podcast and the thoughts below have been rolling around in my head since. Figured I'd get your guys input.

First, current product set: Griot's BOSS Foam White and Orange pads + Ultimate Compound for correcting and Ultimate Polish + BOSS Yellow pad for follow up polish. Griot's GG6 Polisher. (Rupes is on the wishlist...)


From listening to the podcast, it seems that a lot of the top guys (Larry, KB, JR, etc) use the M105/M205 combo with Meg's foam and microfiber pads and maybe a Rupes pad thrown in here and there. Reading online, it's easy to get caught up in the "latest" and greatest when it comes to pads and products. Everyone claims that product x or y makes life 200% easier than the old standby, etc. So in four parts, what I'd like input on, is the following:


1. Do you guys think that these products (105/205 + Megs stuff) are favored because of long time experience with the product, sponsorship, or some combo of the two, or is there something about that combo that when in the hands of a professional results in something that can't be achieved with other systems, either in direct results or the amount of time invested for them? Is there a significant cost advantage in either the cost of the product/oz or amount of product used vs other systems?

2. There are tons of posts here and elsewhere to the tune of, "Try product X, I know 105 is the standby but product X lets me correct easier and faster... etc." Am I hamstringing my learning or my results by using products that are [reportedly] easier to use? For example, the Griot's BOSS system has gotten a lot of good word of mouth lately for it's ease of use and correction ability. Price considerations aside, is there a performance benefit or something valuable about learning the 105/205 system that I wouldn't get with a product set that's purportedly easier to use?


3. If you were going to recommend a "system" to someone who hasn't used a lot of different products and tell them to "go master this before you start trying other things" what would that system be?

4. How do you guys deal with the fact that there are more products available than one person can possibly try/keep track of on a reasonable budget for both money and time? It's obvious that great results can come from a variety of different systems. How do you choose and decide to stick with one over another?

TLDR: If 105/205 don't offer significant results advantages and are purportedly more difficult to use than some of the other popular systems, why is that combo so popular with the professional crowd? Is it simple product familiarity/loyalty, a true advantage in either results or time investment, or something else? Will learning the 105/205 combo make me a better machine polisher (forcing good technique) than another system or will I simply learn the idiosyncrasies of that system?

Cheers,
Nathan
 
I wonder if the fact many of the detailers who have been in the business for so long use 105/205 simply because they were the "gold standard" at the time and one of only a few products available. They became masters of their craft using them and simply don't see any reason to move on to anything else.

I've only used a couple products and they have allowed me to form opinions on how they work in certain conditions. I'm now using what I learned from them to form an opinion on what I want to look for when moving to another product.

Some may disagree, but I still think the Meguiars UP/UC combo are great "gateway" polishes. They are cheap, easy to use, and will produce decent results while you learn to machine polish.
 
The reality in my mind is that there are many products doing the same things so branding becomes extremely important. An embarrassment of riches is how I see things. Most of these products require capability coupled to method. Regarding capability there are tons of products that are capable of M105/M205 results. The difference is in the methods of application which includes nuanced variables like temperature, pad type, DA speed, wet/dry conditions of the product itself, paint condition and paint type, etc. The list of methods is endless.

Modern products have tons of overlap to older products. Example might be McKee's Fast Wax and Trademark Extender Spray Wax. I read the information packets carefully. One is carnauba and the other is synthetic. They compete against many, many competent products. In the end, it is really branding that will determine success and failure. They all seek to achieve the same results and most are successful. So, how do you choose? Coke vs Pepsi. KFC vs Popeye's. FedEx vs UPS. Everyone has an opinion. The brand solidifies those opinions. In the end the result is essentially the same.
 
•Regardless the brand:

-The only time that I'll go with a
Compound that's more aggressive
than Meguiar's UC, is for a Show
Car that has a customized paint
job (ie: plenty of extra CC), and
spends all of its time as a partici-
pant of the indoors circuit---never
sees the (UV)light-of-day.


•Otherwise...my credo is:
-I Must Save-up On The CC!



Bob
 
FUNX650 said:
•Regardless the brand:

-The only time that I'll go with a
Compound that's more aggressive
than Meguiar's UC, is for a Show
Car that has a customized paint
job (ie: plenty of extra CC), and
spends all of its time as a partici-
pant of the indoors circuit---never
sees the (UV)light-of-day.


•Otherwise...my credo is:
-I Must Save-up On The CC!



Bob
Click to expand...
I agree that for a daily it's better to leave a few defects and the corresponding clear around them than to go for a perfect look that will be ruined of the owner forgets to wax it once.

You say you won't use something stronger than UC-does that mean you use UC or do you use something with equivalent cut?

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk
 
105/205 do not offer a significant advantage to UC/UP. 105 is different from UC and mostly not in a good way. (MY OPINION only.) No doubt people can get good results with it. I have as well. But there are many better products that are less finicky. It is easy to overwork 105 and once you do it can set up like concrete on your paint. Working time is relatively short. Why would you go there? It cuts well. There are other products that cut as well or better and don't have the same issues 105 has.

Can you learn you use it without having issues? Absolutely. Is there a reason to do so? Not that I can see. UC, Griot's compound, Menzerna, Jescar, HD Cut, and several others are all better options than 105, imo. I really wish people would stop recommending it, especially to people new to using a DA on their paint.
 
First off, The BOSS system has gotten great reviews when paired together. Like Rupes, Griots wanted to design a system of machines, pads and liquids that would tackle a huge variety of defects and be very, very user friendly. If you wanted to pursue a "system," and don't want to hunt down the perfect combination for UC, UP, take a swing at the BOSS system.

I could say the same about Rupes, since their tools offer similar characteristics to the BOSS g15 and g21 machines.

Venturing into the ever growing world of compounds and polishes really comes as you begin to find the "limitations" of certain products. For a production detailer, one of the biggest factors is speed. M101, M100 and M105 are designed to be used in an environment that produces great results FAST.

Choosing new products (for me) comes down to a few questions,

1. Do the products I have now accomplish the desired results for me and my customers?

2. What (if anything) do the products I have lack (cutting speed, dust, haze, open time...etc)

3. Is adding "product X" going to solve any of these problems and increase my effectiveness as a detailer.

There have been a few times I have purchased products due to hype and I have obtained inferior results. But honestly, the majority of products recommended on this site are recommended for a reason by trusted enthusiasts and professionals alike. M100/M205 for me is a match made in heaven on most severely neglected 2-step jobs. There are occasions where M205 won't finish down how I like, so out comes the DAT (Blackfire SRC or Menz3800).

As long as the work you're doing is satisfactory, I would encourage you to keep your head down and keep delivering quality work!
 
Thanks for the insights all. 105/205 seemed like the natural progression from UC/UP since it's the same base technology in each. I have been really quite happy with the UC/UP combo (though I think the compound is the better product of the two) but I don't like that I can't buy it in bigger bottles. I may be be ready to buy a gallon of compound/polish (time will tell what kind of volume I can both a. expect to generate in business and b. handle on top of my day job) but getting a 32+ oz bottle that will do 2-3 cars would be nice.

I tend to like SMAT in theory but I've not used any DAT products so that's totally an "academic" opinion, not based in personal experience.

Cheers,
Nathan

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk
 
EngineerNate said:
Thanks for the insights all. 105/205 seemed like the natural progression from UC/UP since it's the same base technology in each. I have been really quite happy with the UC/UP combo (though I think the compound is the better product of the two) but I don't like that I can't buy it in bigger bottles. I may be be ready to buy a gallon of compound/polish (time will tell what kind of volume I can both a. expect to generate in business and b. handle on top of my day job) but getting a 32+ oz bottle that will do 2-3 cars would be nice.

I tend to like SMAT in theory but I've not used any DAT products so that's totally an "academic" opinion, not based in personal experience.
Click to expand...

You have to remember, the biggest difference between UC/UP vs M105/205 is the professional line is PAINT ENVIRONMENT safe... while UC/UP is not.
They both use SMAT (older M105 Mirror Glaze uses MAT), which makes a minor difference.

Yes, M105 cuts more aggressively, but I would stick with UC, since that is rated 8/12 cutting scale on Meguiar's site.

This is a really nifty little chart you can check out:
http://site.autopia-carcare.com/newsletters/2017/Polishchart/AutopiaPol1400.jpg
 
I've seen that before, it's a great chart. I have to say I have been happy with the UC overall. It's worked great with all the pads I've used it with.

I might get some of the Boss correcting cream, it'd be a good way to try that lineup without getting duplicates in cut level to what I already have.

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk
 
Dredogol said:
You have to remember, the biggest difference between UC/UP vs M105/205 is the professional line is PAINT ENVIRONMENT safe... while UC/UP is not.
They both use SMAT (older M105 Mirror Glaze uses MAT), which makes a minor difference.

Yes, M105 cuts more aggressively, but I would stick with UC, since that is rated 8/12 cutting scale on Meguiar's site.

This is a really nifty little chart you can check out:
http://site.autopia-carcare.com/newsletters/2017/Polishchart/AutopiaPol1400.jpg
Click to expand...

UC always surprises me for an OTC compound, honestly. paired with a megs mf cutting disc it really can do some amazing things. I use Pinnacle polishes, but for all of my compounding needs I just reach for D300 or UC and a mf cutting disc.
 
EngineerNate said:
I've seen that before, it's a great chart. I have to say I have been happy with the UC overall. It's worked great with all the pads I've used it with.

I might get some of the Boss correcting cream, it'd be a good way to try that lineup without getting duplicates in cut level to what I already have.
Click to expand...

Most of the products are either:
1) Aimed for professionals in PAINT environments
2) Aimed for professionals (or consumers) required "dedicated" products
3) Aimed for professionals (or consumers) that need a 2in1 or 3in1 product

Meguiars M105/M205 fall in the 1st category, along with many other manufacture products... they will say if PAINT safe or not.
Meguiars D115, D156, etc. fall under the 2nd category, as there isn't much "other use" those products can do.
Meguiars D101, D114, D170, etc fall under the 3rd category, because they are designed for multiple purposes based on dilution ratios.

On consumer grade of things, you have stuff like: Cleaner Waxs, Polish Waxes, Ultimate Wash and Wax (UWW), Leather cleaner w/ conditioners, etc.
 
Finick said:
UC always surprises me for an OTC compound, honestly. paired with a megs mf cutting disc it really can do some amazing things. I use Pinnacle polishes, but for all of my compounding needs I just reach for D300 or UC and a mf cutting disc.
Click to expand...

I love UC on green b&s, or their original mf cutting pads.

Also works great with the original blue Rupes mf disc.
 
dlc95 said:
I love UC on green b&s, or their original mf cutting pads.

Also works great with the original blue Rupes mf disc.
Click to expand...
Isn't the green a pretty light pad for use with a compound?

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk
 
I've tried darn near every compound out there, and 105 is still one of my most used compounds. Been using it so long. I can see why Larry Kosilla and Kevin Brown love the stuff so much. And I will recommend it to anyone looking for a great compound (MY OPINION)
 
Fast Eddie said:
I've tried darn near every compound out there, and 105 is still one of my most used compounds. Been using it so long. I can see why Larry Kosilla and Kevin Brown love the stuff so much. And I will recommend it to anyone looking for a great compound (MY OPINION)
Click to expand...

The way I see it is; if people like Larry, Kevin Brown, and many other people have been using 105/205 since they came out (or however long), I don't think they'd see much of a reason to ever ever switch to something else. I see so many examples of amazing transformations done with 105/205, it was kind of sad that 205 didn't seem to agree with my paint.

I think that for people who do this for a living, and especially people working on incredibly rare cars like Larry does, being adventurous with your compounds and polishes probably just isn't as appealing as say, someone who gets to do more production style details, or a hobbyist for example.

I enjoy trying new polishes and compounds, granted I wish I could get 2-3oz samples for almost anything on this website, because I'd be inclined to try a lot more stuff. That's the best part about how things have come along in this industry, in my opinion. You have things like Griots Fast Correcting Cream, which can basically give you the same results as m105, without any learning curve at all. Hell, I pulled 99% of the scratches out of my Altima just using UC and D300 on a MF cutting disc.
 
Fast Eddie said:
I've tried darn near every compound out there, and 105 is still one of my most used compounds. Been using it so long. I can see why Larry Kosilla and Kevin Brown love the stuff so much. And I will recommend it to anyone looking for a great compound (MY OPINION)
Click to expand...
No question 105 can work well. However, posts like this are a recommendation and justification for people new to polishing to use it. It's simply not as good as other products for various reasons, and particularly not for people who aren't as experienced.

The message seems to be "start with something else, but when you're experienced and good enough you'll want to use this stuff." The reality is most people will be better off using something else regardless of skill level. I think it's unfair and unreasonable to recommend 105 to new users when there are better products out there.

It's fine that some people use it and like it. It's not fine to set people up for a bad experience by not acknowledging the issues and limitations of 105, and to not steer them toward better products.

Here's an opinion from Mike on 105 (I added the underlining):

But abrasive technology has changed.

Meguiar's started it with the introduction of M105 which uses SMAT or Super Micro Abrasive Technology. This is an AGGRESSIVE compound that will cut like a son of a gun and finish out like a fine polish.

I was at Meguiar's when it was introduced, I used the beta products, I was blown away by this product when it was first introduced and since then Meguiar's has introduced M101 and M100 which I think both of these products work better than M105.​
 
IMO, you don't know what you're missing if you're stuck using M105. Menzerna FG400 is still my favorite along with Griot's FCC.
 
IMO, if you love M105 and have tried all the other compounds, then you aren't "stuck" with anything, you have choices and have chosen to use a product that works phenomenal w/ a proven track record. Guess if someone hates M105 then everyone will, this type of thinking is what I avoid and why by business is such a success. You know what they say about opinions......
 
Fast Eddie said:
IMO, if you love M105 and have tried all the other compounds, then you aren't "stuck" with anything, you have choices and have chosen to use a product that works phenomenal w/ a proven track record. Guess if someone hates M105 then everyone will, this type of thinking is what I avoid and why by business is such a success. You know what they say about opinions......
Click to expand...

Hey, to each their own. My father is the same way sometimes, "old fashioned". ;) I live with the motto; work smarter, not harder. :)
 
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