A Word To All Waterless and Rinseless Wash Users

[VP Mark]

Thank you for this insight. You have shown me the light after thousands of rinseless and waterless washes.

Not.

Cmon man, the worse rinseless/waterless wash user does a much better job washing than the average non geek Joe washing a car with a sponge in his driveway.

 

[Ebg18t]

What ever.

Next topic please.

 

[ronkh57]

The tone in the OP was not intended to present itself that way.
I actually went back to edit it to soften the tone and remove the bold lettering, but the edit option was not available.

The follow up post is in response to the Reddit style remarks directed towards the OP, and towards me.
I do not control how someone feels.
I only control my own words.
I stand by the follow up and the intended message of the OP.

Again.
The OP was not directed towards anyone specifically.
It was not intended to preach to the choir.
I am always open to constructive criticism and discussion.
The majority remarks offered in this thread have in no way represented anything constructive.

Still, to me and I assume others, it was dictatorial, accusatory and condescending.

 

[CarolinasFinestDetailing]

That is a good idea.
Many like to hose off the exterior panels, and then use the rinseless/waterless solutions to clean the exterior, and use as drying aids.

I prefer to at least always have a couple spray bottles of distilled water on hand.
Typically, I will saturate each panel with distilled water regardless of what product choice I use.

Rinseless and waterless washes are often not always used without some form of rinse, or without some water, although they are engineered to do what they advertise.

Be careful. You should actually heed your own device. If you pre soak panels, you're u should use the solution you plan to use to rinseless/waterless wash with. Using only water can further dilute the solution you are using.

 

[choijw2]

I can agree to this ONLY IF car was in very dirty condition.

for moderately well maintained cars, waterless and rinseless washes with proper technique can save you so much time without adding scratches.



:xyxthumbs:

 

[vanev]

Be careful. You should actually heed your own device. If you pre soak panels, you're u should use the solution you plan to use to rinseless/waterless wash with. Using only water can further dilute the solution you are using.

I hear you.
You offer good advice.

Typically, after completion of the first panel, I will know if the pre soak of the panel with distilled water works well with the product.
If not, I simply move on and use the product as a stand alone product for the specific application.

I can agree to this ONLY IF car was in very dirty condition.

for moderately well maintained cars, waterless and rinseless washes with proper technique can save you so much time without adding scratches.
:xyxthumbs:

I pretty much agree with this.
I will still follow the same technique, but just keep my eye on the towel, and flip to a clean side only when needed, vs every single pass no mater what.

You should write these guys a strongly worded letter as well:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-ShtSvQaSA

This is a good example of what not to do.
This is also a good example of the level of dirt on the vehicles that I typically detail.

I do appreciate the fact that he starts at the top of the panel, and works his way to the bottom of the panel.
I also appreciate his choice of towel and the fact that he at least uses a snake pattern, vs a wipe all over approach.

However, with the amount of dirt on the exterior panels of this vehicle, and the fact that he uses only one side of the towel working his way down each panel, this would be a good example of installing scratches and user inflicted defects into the clear coat and paint.

I will also add that no amount of lubrication, pile size, or nap configuration will compensate for this type of approach to prevent damage.

 

[swanicyouth]

I like these sort of threads. The OP is right. There is a lot of bad technique being floated on the threads by inexperienced users.

Can you give us a link or an example?

 

[FUNX650]

The tone in the OP...

I stand by the follow up...

Staying within your spirit (tone) of being
judgmental throughout all of your postings
in this thread...

Aren't your postings like a baby's bottom;
whereas: once you get to a critical-point,
you can't tell the difference between the
left cheek and the right one?


Bob

 

[conman1395]

A Word To All Waterless and Rinseless Wash Users:


I am seeing a trend of some really bad habits and improper technique with the majority of Waterless and Rinseless wash users.
The damage being done to paint and clear coat is just as bad as any tunnel car wash, and truthfully even worse.
Waterless Wash and Rinseless Wash are not magic products.
They cannot and do not substitute for lack of proper wash methods and techniques.

There is also a difference between detailing a vehicle, and simply washing the vehicle.
If anyone thinks, believes, or guesses that one can simply spray product onto the panels of any vehicle, and just begin to wipe all over the panels as if they are already clean, that is incorrect.
Makes no difference if the vehicle has wax, sealant, or a coating.

You cannot simply spray on product to a dirty panel, and just wipe all over.
You will add scratches into the clear coat, paint, wax, sealant, or coating.

Applying product and immediately implementing a wipe all over approach is the same thing as using a bucket of soap and water, and using the same rag to wash down every panel, glass, wheel well, wheel, and tire.
The same damages to the panel surfaces will result.

For all those using Waterless Wash and/or Rinseless Wash, please fully educate yourself on what you are doing, before doing it.
And for all those who have recently discovered spray waxes for the first time, for the love of humanity, please stop calling yourself a professional detailer.

Mind sharing what the difference between washing and detailing is?

Or just defining what detailing is?

Also, how do you wipe a car after spraying a waterless wash that is different than wiping a surface that is already clean? I already treat all surfaces the same - wipe with only enough pressure to make contact with the surface, only wipe in one direction according to the face of the towel, and check the surface of the towel EACH AND EVERY time I take it off the car and again before I put it to the surface of the car....

 

[Eldorado2k]

IMO I believe the OP is correct in some ways. If you are not familiar with the rinseless wash technique or the waterless wash techniques then you will scratch your paint.

I agree with this. Most people here can be a master of most things detailing, but anyone, including most of us could easily find themselves making critical mistakes once they decide to jump into rinseless washing.

I personally had a bit of a learning experience just recently when I decided to go back to rinseless after quite a bit of time doing waterless washes. [with complete success]

1st thing that's different was the level of dirty that I'd attempt to clean. For example, waterless washes are mostly done when a vehicle isn't overly dirty. But the mentally is that rinseless can handle a normally dirty vehicle.. But the truth is there's a fine line, and that's where you're setting yourself up for a rude awakening.

Pre spraying the panel can help, but you'll realize what a big difference there is between that, and a normL pre rinse before a hose & bucket wash. Knowing about that fine line is critical.

 

[willowcat11]

Yeah, I'm sorta new. And even though you say you are not bothered by about how a lot of people have reacted to your OP. You keep coming back to explain yourself. So obviously you do care. You need to understand that when you post everything in huge letters like that, and in bold, that people are going to be highly focused on that, because that is the way you set it up to be with all those loud words. And you said, "A Word To All Waterless and Rinseless Wash Users:". That's when things started to go a little sour, because no matter what you wrote afterwards, you just put that in huge letters. So everyone is already assuming you are talking about EVERYONE who uses Waterless and Rinseless. Even Long time veteran users of these products. So it will seem as preaching to the choir.

I can see you're point about just letting others know so they can learn a proper way of doing things. But your way about saying it, and the tone you said it in, seemed rather Dr. Phil-ish. And like you were speaking down on everyone here.

Next time, I would consider offering your information up as something that could be of benefit to others. Like:

"Through my experiences, I have learned some techniques that could be helpful, and beneficial to all Rinseless and Waterless Wash users"

That way it wouldn't sound like people are being TOLD how to do something. Rather some helpful information is being offered for those who could, or would like to be benefited by it.

There should be no surprise to the way people have reacted to the OP. It's just the way it was written, rather than what you meant to convey.

Now, I do appreciate that you have some very helpful information indeed to learn from, And I do not feel you outrightly wanted to come out and sound that way. Which you already have said. So with all that said hopefully we can continue to have a nice post, since this is something I need to learn about anyway.


Thanks,


Ray

 

[kevincwelch]

I'm going to trim your OP down a bit, so one could argue that it is now taken out of context. Nevertheless, I'll try to highlight why some people are offended.

A Word To All Waterless and Rinseless Wash Users:

In the title of the thread and in this text, you have addressed it to "all" waterless and rinseless wash users. That includes newbies and experienced users of both products.

It's generally uncouth to encompass absolutes in messages like this because you assume too much. Whether you intended insult or not is often irrelevant because the impact of words is what drives people to retort. In this case, people reacted strongly. I might suggest that you consider your words more carefully next time, because even though you aren't responsible for people's actions, your actions have unintended casual relationship.

I am seeing a trend of some really bad habits and improper technique with the majority of Waterless and Rinseless wash users.

You've switched to using the term "majority" now, and I still think this is problematic. Had this post been an Op-Ed in the New York Times, your message might have been more applicable. However, posted in a forum of largely experienced individuals -- many of whom perform rinseless washes regularly (I suppose they are excluded from the "all" or the "majority"?) -- I am uncertain as to whether you are initiating a call to action or trying to educate. If it's the latter, that's a bit arrogant considering the company you're in. If the former, whom are you calling to action? All of us? The majority of us? Both seem to be pretty fluent in rinseless washes.

The damage being done to paint and clear coat is just as bad as any tunnel car wash, and truthfully even worse.

This strikes me as opinion rather than any real claim of evidence, and I highly doubt it (when performed properly).

If anyone thinks, believes, or guesses that one can simply spray product onto the panels of any vehicle, and just begin to wipe all over the panels as if they are already clean, that is incorrect.
Makes no difference if the vehicle has wax, sealant, or a coating.

By referring to "anyone," you again make an absolute statement. Furthermore, this statement you make is a pretty bad assumption and by many accounts and examples on this forum can be disproven.

For all those using Waterless Wash and/or Rinseless Wash, please fully educate yourself on what you are doing, before doing it.

Again, another absolute and self-serving statement on your part.

And for all those who have recently discovered spray waxes for the first time, for the love of humanity, please stop calling yourself a professional detailer.

Is this a rebuke of spray waxes or of experienced detailers who have taken a likening to spray waxes? I certainly hope not either: http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/ask-mike-phillips-your-detailing-questions/69006-frequent-car-care-easy-car-care.html

I think you could have made this thread more productive rather than argumentative. I participate in a lot of forums and was an avid user of usenet about 25 years ago (boy, talk about flame wars), and personally I think AGO is one of the most friendly and professional environments out there. It's a pleasure to scan and read the articles on this forum.

Your post was atypical for this forum, but maybe that's your MO.

Still, a better post would have been something along the lines of "Rinseless Washes and Waterless Washes: Effective Time Savers or Detailing's Dirty Little Secret?"

 

[Scoobertin]

I am a newbie to waterless/rinseless wash. I just did my first rinseless just 4 days ago. I was very nervous about the whole thing and did as much research as I could about the product and technique for about a month before actually doing it. So here is my take on this thread from a newbie stand point both a newbie to this form of wash and to this forum.

The OP has a point but definitely came off like a jerk in my opinion. He is right that there is bad info floating around out there and for a newbie like me, it is hard to know what is right from wrong. Unfortunately you have to learn as you go along and hope you do not mess up too bad. Of all the reading and videos I watched, I still didn't know if I was doing it right and there was some things I forgot to do along the way and realized it and corrected it, at least I think I did. It is a learning curve. My biggest thing about the OP is that he could have created a more constructive thread. You could of said everything in your post because you were partly right but instead of leaving at is, you could of followed up with proper technique to educate all of us especially newbies like me, but you just seemed to bash everyone. The only little advice given was criticizing the YouTube vid. So here is how I did my first rinseless wash and you can either tell me how wrong I did it or be more constructive and educate me. I won't go through all the DETAIL on what I did.

Rinsed the car off the best I could at a self serve car wash. Went home to immediately start my Rinseless wash using wolfgang rinseless solution. Two bucket method, both buckets had grit guards. Rinse bucket had 2 gallons of water plus 1/2oz of wolfgang so when I rinsed then went to the wash soution, I would minimize diluting the main wash bucket solution. Main wash bucket had the 3 gallons water plus 1oz of WG per instructions, maybe a tad more. Made a 32oz of waterless solution to pretreat panels. Went through the process, top to bottom Yada Yada yada. Things I learned along the way or forgot to do but corrected it. I was applying to much pressure when wiping, eased up a bit and let the solution and the rinseless wash mitts do the work. The rinseless washmitt sold here is fantastic by the way, in my newbie opinion. Second thing was when I got to the dirtier parts of the vehicle, I was doing a couple of swipes on the the same side. Corrected that by doing one swipe and then flipping mitt and giving it a second swipe on a clean side. Rinsed mitt then did a final third gentle swipe on the whole panel just make sure it was clean, but only on the dirtier panels. All the while spraying the waterless soution for extra lubrication. Instead of bashing why not give me and everyone else constructive advice. I am willing to learn since you seem to be an expert. For the record I do occasionally use spray waxes on my cars, and consider myself a detailer. Maybe not a pro detailer but none the less a pro in my head. Lol
Newbie out.

 

[Eldorado2k]

@Scoobertin. Sounds like you did it right.Going over the panel a final time with clean media to ensure every trace of dirt is cleaned off before drying is key.

What kind of towel did you use to dry?

 

[Scoobertin]

@Scoobertin. Sounds like you did it right.Going over the panel a final time with clean media to ensure every trace of dirt is cleaned off before drying is key.

What kind of towel did you use to dry?

Good to hear I am going in the right direction for proper rinsless wash. I used a MF drying towel that my wifey got me for Xmas. It is similar to the guzzler but cannot mention the brand here since it is not sold here, but it is from a really good company and quality. I do have two guzzlers that I got from the mystery boxes I got from here that I will use next.

It was the first time I used a MF drying towel and wow what a difference from the synthetic one I have been using for years. I can see why these come highly recommended for drying and to avoid scratches if a spot is missed.

 

[hollerstiltner]

I hear you.

You offer good advice.



Typically, after completion of the first panel, I will know if the pre soak of the panel with distilled water works well with the product.

If not, I simply move on and use the product as a stand alone product for the specific application.

What markers do you look for to tell if this technique is working? Aside from marring, I'm not sure what to look for to adjust my technique.

Do you prefer the multiple media wash method, 2 bucket, 1 bucket or other method?

Also, would you post a write up, video or link to what you consider proper technique for a waterless and rinseless wash?

 

[Mike PhillipsMike Phillips is verified member.]

First I'd like to share that while relaxing at home after working all day I started getting e-mail from the forum letting me know this thread was being reported as a problem thread and to everyone that reported the thread I say,

Thank you.

If and when there is a problem on this forum it's much better to simply report the problem the become untangled in it. For anyone that might not be familiar with how to use the report feature here's an article that shows and explains it.

What to do when you see a problem on the forum


Of course then I monitored this thread the rest of the night.



Now a few comments...

While this forum is a great resource of information and social dialog, it is not immune from the nonsense that goes on at any other forum.

While no forum including this forum is immune from the nonsense that goes on at other forums I'm very happy to say and also very confident to state that this forum is not known for nonsense, drama or flame wars.

I've been posting to the Internet that I can document since 1994. I've been a member of and running discussion forums since the software was invented and released in beta form. So I have a little experience with how discussion forums work and even more specifically I'm in charge of how this forum functions. I'm very happy to say that this forum doesn't have the problems most other forums have due to the way it's ran and also due the high caliber of people it attracts.

Anyone that comes to this forum to cause problems are simply given enough rope to hang themselves and shown the door. That's why it stays nice and friendly and that's the way it's going to stay.

The good news is we never ban anyone. A person bans themselves by breaking the forum rules. All we do is enforce the forum rules. And this circles back to why this forum is the exception to the rule and while it's not as you say,

it is not immune from the nonsense that goes on at any other forum.

The type of nonsense that gos on at other forums just doesn't take place here and if and when it does it's dealt with quickly so again... it's not a problem and it's not representative of this forum community.

No.

Delete the posts of those who have chosen to not offer discussion, only juvenile remarks.

And just for the public record. We never delete anything on this forum for legal reasons.

Threads and posts may be MOVED to the moderators forum but rest assured, everything that is ever posted is forever preserved it just might not be visible to the public but to Moderators only.

And that's the way a professional forum is run.

The tone in the OP was not intended to present itself that way.

That said, from reading through this thread it's easy to see that enough of our good and long time forum members did read your post with a negative and condescending tone and that's why you received the reaction you've received.

I think the lesson here is to take a few extra moments to proof-read what you write and try to look at it though other people's eyes and if needed make adjustments to make 100% sure that what you have written comes off and is perceived correctly and in the manner you truly intend.

I actually went back to edit it to soften the tone and remove the bold lettering, but the edit option was not available.

The time limit for editing is something I implemented because when I came to this forum to work in 2009 there were a handful of troublemakers that took advantage of the no time limit edit feature to edit their original remarks for nefarious reasons.

This circles back to what I wrote above about taking some extra time to re-read what you have written and make 100% sure that this is what you want the public to see forever before hitting the [Submit] button.

The follow up post is in response to the Reddit style remarks directed towards the OP, and towards me.
I do not control how someone feels.
I only control my own words.
I stand by the follow up and the intended message of the OP.

Again.
The OP was not directed towards anyone specifically.
It was not intended to preach to the choir.
I am always open to constructive criticism and discussion.
The majority remarks offered in this thread have in no way represented anything constructive.

My constructive feedback, not criticism would be to take some extra time to craft your words more carefully and then you won't have to defend your writing style.

I practice my own writing style called,

Defensive writing

That is I can defend anything I post to any forum. If I couldn't or can't, then I don't post it. I'm a veteran of the Zaino vs NXT wars and I'm completely understand from experience how a SINGLE WORD can cause a flame war.

Thus I have practiced the art of defensive writing since the Zaino vs NXT wars and highly recommend the practice to others. That is make sure what you write is accurate, helpful and friendly or don't post it at all.

Yeah, I'm sorta new. And even though you say you are not bothered by about how a lot of people have reacted to your OP. You keep coming back to explain yourself. So obviously you do care.

You need to understand that when you post everything in huge letters like that, and in bold, that people are going to be highly focused on that, because that is the way you set it up to be with all those loud words.

And you said, "A Word To All Waterless and Rinseless Wash Users:". That's when things started to go a little sour, because no matter what you wrote afterwards, you just put that in huge letters.

So everyone is already assuming you are talking about EVERYONE who uses Waterless and Rinseless. Even Long time veteran users of these products. So it will seem as preaching to the choir.

I can see you're point about just letting others know so they can learn a proper way of doing things.

But your way about saying it, and the tone you said it in, seemed rather Dr. Phil-ish. And like you were speaking down on everyone here.

Next time, I would consider offering your information up as something that could be of benefit to others. Like:

"Through my experiences, I have learned some techniques that could be helpful, and beneficial to all Rinseless and Waterless Wash users"

That way it wouldn't sound like people are being TOLD how to do something. Rather some helpful information is being offered for those who could, or would like to be benefited by it.

There should be no surprise to the way people have reacted to the OP. It's just the way it was written, rather than what you meant to convey.

Now, I do appreciate that you have some very helpful information indeed to learn from, And I do not feel you outrightly wanted to come out and sound that way. Which you already have said. So with all that said hopefully we can continue to have a nice post, since this is something I need to learn about anyway.


Thanks,


Ray

Very well written Ray.

And I appreciate how you went on to give not only constructive feedback but you also went the extra mile to provide an example of how to word a message for a forum and it's membership to avoid any accidental misconceptions.

I'm going to trim your OP down a bit, so one could argue that it is now taken out of context. Nevertheless, I'll try to highlight why some people are offended.


In the title of the thread and in this text, you have addressed it to "all" waterless and rinseless wash users. That includes newbies and experienced users of both products.

It's generally uncouth to encompass absolutes in messages like this because you assume too much.

Whether you intended insult or not is often irrelevant because the impact of words is what drives people to retort.

In this case, people reacted strongly.

I might suggest that you consider your words more carefully next time, because even though you aren't responsible for people's actions, your actions have unintended casual relationship.

Well written Kevin. Constructive feedback WITH providing an example on how to change or improve ones writing style to keep the focus on the topic not the way it is delivered.

You've switched to using the term "majority" now, and I still think this is problematic. Had this post been an Op-Ed in the New York Times, your message might have been more applicable. However, posted in a forum of largely experienced individuals -- many of whom perform rinseless washes regularly (I suppose they are excluded from the "all" or the "majority"?) -- I am uncertain as to whether you are initiating a call to action or trying to educate. If it's the latter, that's a bit arrogant considering the company you're in. If the former, whom are you calling to action? All of us? The majority of us? Both seem to be pretty fluent in rinseless washes.

This strikes me as opinion rather than any real claim of evidence, and I highly doubt it (when performed properly).

By referring to "anyone," you again make an absolute statement. Furthermore, this statement you make is a pretty bad assumption and by many accounts and examples on this forum can be dis-proven.

Again, another absolute and self-serving statement on your part.

I think you could have made this thread more productive rather than argumentative.

Do you have a background in writing Kevin? Or are you a lawyer in a past life?

Is this a rebuke of spray waxes or of experienced detailers who have taken a likening to spray waxes? I certainly hope not either:

Frequent Car Care is Easy Car Care

Ah.... one of my favorite products for keeping my truck clean...


Products Used
4 plush Microfiber Towels and Marine 31 Stern to Bow Waterless Wash & Wax with Carnauba

I participate in a lot of forums and was an avid user of Usenet about 25 years ago (boy, talk about flame wars), and personally I think AGO is one of the most friendly and professional environments out there.

It's a pleasure to scan and read the articles on this forum.

Thank you for stating this as this mirrors my sentiment about the forum world in general and AGO in specific.

Your post was atypical for this forum, but maybe that's your MO.

Definition of atypical. : not typical : not like the usual or normal type.

Still, a better post would have been something along the lines of

"Rinseless Washes and Waterless Washes: Effective Time Savers or Detailing's Dirty Little Secret?"

Again, this is a text book example of how to both provide constructive criticism and include examples of how to make improvements. In fact... I have an article on this topic...


A tip on giving constructive feedback...



I'm leaving in about a half hour to join Andre and Nick at the Stuart Boat Show to demonstrate how to detail boats. It's a great show and if you're in the area the weather is sunny and warm so please stop by the Marine 31 booth and say "hi".



Stuart Boat Show 2016 - Marine 31 will have a booth!


Ariel View of the Stuart Boat Show!

Here's a link to the forum rules, if you're not familiar with them please take a moment to click the link below and read them and then abide by them on this forum.

Forum Rules


Because I don't think anything else posted to this thread will benefit either the thread, the topic or our community I'm going to take advantage of rule #7 which goes like this,


7. If any thread gets off topic it will be at the discretion of the moderator to close and/or move it to moderators corner.




And a parting commment....



Sometimes you need to push away from the keyboard


If after reading something you've written and have not posted yet is causing you to wonder if it's appropriate.... that's a sign that maybe it's not appropriate. Instead of hitting the [Submit] button... push away from they keyboard.

Maybe take a walk and then come back with a set of fresh eyes and a clear head and re-read what you've written. If you're confident it's accurate, positive and helpful then post it. If there's any question about what you've written and this can include the style in which you've written it... maybe don't post it at all.


This thread is officially closed.


:xyxthumbs: