Ceramic vs. Wax - Can We Cut To The Chase?

FUNX650 said:
-Just a FYI:
Some of the shiniest vehicles I’ve ever detailed had exactly no LSP applied to them. True story.
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I know a guy in this industry that used to say this all the time, and while it may be true, the results won't last over time as the polishing oils are water soluble. It is the application of the LSP than enables the results to endure over time.

This is why I always say,

Wax is the great equalizer

Or

Synthetic sealant is the great equalizer

Or

Ceramic coating is the great equalizer

It is the application of the LSP after the last polishing step that shmoos over the surface and thus shmoos over the surface to create a uniform appearance (that will endure over time), and that in some case, may tone down the results from polishing.


Here let me go deep down the Rabbit Hole.... :)


Also - the application of an LSP will create a more uniform appearance that I don't think polishing can achieve as there are a few variables in the polishing step that cannot always be trusted to create a 100% perfect appearance over 100% of the car. This is where the LSP will pick up the slack. Those factors would include things like


Who is doing the polishing and their skill level - pretty easy to figure out there are some people that are true artists with a polisher in their hands and a larger majority that are simply "good".

The paint itself =Paint is always the unknown variable - this means in any given detail job, the end results may not be dependent upon the person, the product or the tool, the car could simply have crap for paint. I dealt with this at my lass class.

Then other things like abrasive technology, pad choice and tool choice - but a true artist will already have his system dialed-in, kind of like any true professional car painter.

Number of pads used - can't create perfection when pad structure changes and or becomes contaminated. Too many people using too few pads from what I've seen over the decades.

​




Just waxing on at length now.... pun intended....


:bolt:
 
FUNX650 said:
Just curious:

When you bend the light with an LSP, does it add to; lessen; or have no affect on the existing level of shine? TIA


Bob
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It creates a darker finish that is more richer in color.

I think I have an old Meguiar's catalog that reference this and I've also talked to a chemist that explains how this works.

Hint: M26


Ah.... going down car wax history memory lane....


:dblthumb2:
 
And here's the questions I would like to see answers too....

These were directed at thread starter simply because he asked the initial questions that started this thread. These are huge factors that do, should and will effect the results and longevity of any detail job, be it a wax or a ceramic coating.



Mike Phillips said:
Great questions...

Here's my questions....


1: What have you used in the past to protect you car?

2: Do you own a polisher?

3: What compounds and polishes do you normally use?

4: How do you normally wash your car?


:)
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:dunno:
 
Thanks, Mike for stating what is in my eyes, pretty obvious. But each person has their own opinions and their own eyes. No one is wrong on the subject of shine.

But I mentioned recently in another thread that I’m always going to do as good as my ability allows when polishing. I never decide “hey, I’m going to use Souveran as an LSP to allow me to give only partial effort during my correction.”

And without a doubt, in my final results I look for how much of that final 5-15% extra that an LSP may or may not add to the look. I’ve seen almost no improvement of the 5-15%, I’ve probably seen decreased improvement, and I’ve seen a very substantial improvement during that last step. I’m pretty fanatical at looking at the paint and I don’t expect all people to notice differences, but for me it is THE difference since I will always polish as best I can (hobbyist here).
 
1- Wax only; spray on (but as I mentioned, this last time I clayed and applied ceramic sealer.
2 - Yes but never use it
3 - None
4 - Hose, nozzle, microfiber wash mitt with any soap sold at an Autozone or Advanced.

As you can see. I'm a once a month warrior. And still don't know what LSP means :-)
 
alnuman said:
1- Wax only; spray on (but as I mentioned, this last time I clayed and applied ceramic sealer.
2 - Yes but never use it
3 - None
4 - Hose, nozzle, microfiber wash mitt with any soap sold at an Autozone or Advanced.

As you can see. I'm a once a month warrior. And still don't know what LSP means :-)
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LSP: Last Stage Product.

Meaning the last thing you apply. (Wax, sealant, hybrid, or coating). :)
 
acuRAS82 said:
With ceramic sprays (coating lites or maintenance) I see bright, sharp reflections that sit on the surface... like the way glass reflects. I’ve never thought about reaching my hand into the paint looking at ceramics, but I’m more focused on whether the reflection is actually brighter than the real life object being reflected. Contours seem sharper to me as well.
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Absolutely razor-sharp diamond gloss, with a reflection that hurts my eyes when the sunlight hits it from certain angles. Which is exactly what this tattered paint needed. It still feels like sandpaper in some areas. (I think the car was in a sand storm under previous ownership).

I did a two-step paint correction (maybe 1.5 steps) but it probably needed wet sanding to get rid of the sand damage. But hot damn! She sure does shine now!

581a713c8664ce09844e90c4044c5692.jpg


-3D One, Uro Fiber 50/50 pad
-siO2 primer polish, Hex white pad
-One Step Master 25% siO2 paste sealant
-Quartz Max 5% topper
-Shinee Wax after first washing. 🤯

f30ad95f45429f2e4fafd4027e981bb6.jpg


Ghost in the mirror.
23a1011cc9a7fd49407f8068235d9a62.jpg



This is a side of the car that caught me off guard. I just was in awe how reflective it looked.
1680193f72b160c6688327ec600ef4e4.jpg


Previous products on the finish were P&S Beadmaker and Turtle wax hybrid ceramic trio. While they made the car look good, this current setup is in another universe.

Which brings me to another thought, won’t some paint finishes simply respond better to certain products, versus others? I mean to answer my own question, I would say yes. This seems to be the best combo for this car, at least.
 
Craig Encinitas said:
Previous products on the finish were P&S Beadmaker and Turtle wax hybrid ceramic trio. While they made the car look good, this current setup is in another universe.

Which brings me to another thought, won’t some paint finishes simply respond better to certain products, versus others? I mean to answer my own question, I would say yes. This seems to be the best combo for this car, at least.
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Absolutely, you hit the nail on the head. Different paints respond different to different products... and different colors certainly headline certain products better than others. Looks like you found an amazing combo and your happiness makes me happy. That white looks incredible, it definitely itely does the razor sharp look very nicely.

This is what I love about detailing. And because of what you just pointed out, my love for detailing never gets old because just when you think you found the holy grail on one vehicle, there may be a completely different set of products on your next car that becomes “the combo”.

I literally have 2-4 different LSPs/combos that are my favorites for each of my 3 cars at this time. Call them 2-4 “ties for first place” if you will. Partially because I like certain looks in summer versus other looks in cloudy winter season. It all just leads to a lot of fun for me and the search never needs to end, although if it had to I would be happy with the number of combos I already love.
 
Sometimes a LSP can add a different dimension of shine under artificial lights. And there are some waxes and coatings that help protect from an occasional bird dropping.
 
I’m in the process of correcting the ‘brilliant black’ Q5 and while it looks fantastic with 97% correction, it’s still missing the additional light bending appearance that I love. It’s a nice but somewhat sterile look, freshly polished paint. I look forward to getting a coating on there.
 
acuRAS82---

Just wondering---what did you use to correct the Q5?

Maybe...it's more work but maybe if you could finish out the polish with an ultra fine polish on soft pad? That probably will create the light bending look w/o going to a coating. Just thinking out loud here...

In my early days---went nuts on my Lexus, compounded, fine polish and ultra fine polished the car! Took me 2 days. And the dang car has very soft paint. To this day----it looks like glass!

And of course went with a coating a year later. Still looks like a mirror!

Tom
 
TMQ said:
acuRAS82---

Just wondering---what did you use to correct the Q5?

Maybe...it's more work but maybe if you could finish out the polish with an ultra fine polish on soft pad? That probably will create the light bending look w/o going to a coating. Just thinking out loud here...

In my early days---went nuts on my Lexus, compounded, fine polish and ultra fine polished the car! Took me 2 days. And the dang car has very soft paint. To this day----it looks like glass!

And of course went with a coating a year later. Still looks like a mirror!

Tom
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I’ve gone overboard too doing swirl remover with orange LC and then ultra fine with white or softer. It looks great but I prefer the extra 5% that an LSP adds, the look that some sort of shield is on the car. I wasn’t saying it needs to be a coating specifically, but any LSP in my opinion adds the cherry on the cake that I like and cherish. I don’t doubt my OCD paint correction process... I just like that extra.
 
98CayenneTA said:
Imo a quality ceramic is better in every way, shape and form over a wax/sealant.
I don't even use waxes anymore period. Everything gets coated.

Deeper, wetter, richer, glossier, smoother.

Cquartz Uk 3.0
Single stage paint
- Menzerna 400
- Menzerna 2400
- Carpro Essence
1974 Nova
View attachment 70796

View attachment 70797

View attachment 70798
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What’s your visual preference, the pure paint right after Menz polishing or the final result with Essence/CQ UK?
 
It's always about the reflection of light essentially. Wax on its own is essentially a very very thin film of oil that sits on the paint. Sealant is a very very thin layer of polymer. A coating is a very very thin layer of siloxane resin.

What I find for best result is always a coating with a high quality SiO2 wax on top. It gives you that glassy look (due to a higher reflectivity angle) but also wet at the same time. (Depends on the angle you look at the car and the angle the panel is).
 
98CayenneTA said:
The final result.
I LOVE the look of coatings
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WillSports3 said:
It's always about the reflection of light essentially. Wax on its own is essentially a very very thin film of oil that sits on the paint. Sealant is a very very thin layer of polymer. A coating is a very very thin layer of siloxane resin.

What I find for best result is always a coating with a high quality SiO2 wax on top. It gives you that glassy look (due to a higher reflectivity angle) but also wet at the same time. (Depends on the angle you look at the car and the angle the panel is).
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Yeah, this was all I was trying to say earlier. No matter how well the polishing job comes out, I prefer the look (not just the protection, self-cleaning, etc) of my final LSP. No matter what that is at the time, it’s rare (maybe only a few times when I used pretty bland sealants) that I like the final look less than the fresh polished look. And that’s knocking a fresh polish at all... the fresh polishing job is 90% what makes the final look as well.
 
acuRAS82 said:
^^Per Bob, some people like the clarity of freshly polished cars. I typically can’t wait to bend the light differently with an LSP. Doesn’t change the surface quality, but can change the way light reflects and refracts. Nuances, but ones I can typically see under certain times of day or lighting or angles.
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I think you’re onto something here.. I recently compounded and polished my Audi, then used Meguiars ultimate liquid wax, topped with Collinite 845. The glow I see in the reflections is amazing, especially at sunset. The car just looks amazing with that Carnauba LSP.
 
Some products create a sharp glassy look and others produce a softer diffused look. Really depends on the color and the look you prefer.
 
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