Ceramiclear Paints - Be Careful

First of all: Don't take this the personally, I might not be the best detailer around, but I do know about (and own) supercars... Nothing personal below, picture me smiling while reading this.

EVERY single car, no matter the sticker price will be shipped to North America in a container or simply exposed to the elements on the deck of a gigantic boat, even Ferrari and Lamborghini (been there, done that)... BEFORE the car arrives at the dealer, it will go trough a car wash with those sandy terry towels basically to remove all the ship/sea gunk, this is done by the transportation company, the dealer has NO saying whatsoever... Even if you hire your favorite transportation company to bring your Zonda straight from Italy, the driver will have to wipe down the car...


Also, please tell me which Mercedes cost $500k. Even the SLS model costs only $220k and can be had for $180k (been there, done that). Heck I own a Maybach 57s and it costs only $400k (And it's far superior to ANY Mercedes in ANY aspect).



I completely agree that clear coats should be thicker and also agree that car companies should think about the big picture and stop working backwards, but expect the car to be 100% swirl free from the factory floor... That's unrealistic (unless it's a Rolls-Royce, been there done that)

The only company that actually cares about future detailers is McLaren, they lay down 3 layers of clear coat on every single MP4-12c... When I asked the Plant Manager about that, he said "So the owners can polish the car several times over" (his words).


Again, not trying to call anyone out, but I'd like to stop and keep misconceptions from developing further..


many cars arrive off of the boat and into the dealer without defects on them. I would say more cars arrive pristine rather than riddled with defects. Somewhere along the line somebody is probably touching some of the car, I agree. But you usually have a better chance of your vehicle showing up at the dealer (pre PDI) with no defects. More than 75% of the vehicles are now covered in protective plastic.

Also, could you please further explain WHICH misconceptions you are trying to stop from "developing further" ?

The only thing I saw you post that was relevant to a misconception was the price for a mercedes likely being exaggerated some (no biggie).

Also, Mike P wrote this :

"A BRAND NEW vehicle with a Ceramiclear finish shouldn't need any kind of correction work."

I dont think thats a misconception. Because like I posted earlier in most case's you have a better chance of your car arriving off the boat defect free, rather than WITH defects. So I disagree that his post was a misconception.

The only thing I got out of your post was the fact that you stated and reiterated the fact that you own and know everything about owning a supercar. (something you made clear more than 3 times in your post. Actually 5 times).

Believe it or not, but Supercars have a history of arriving to the owners in worse shape than your standard 25K dollar car. But you already knew that. More ferrari's, and lambo's arrive to the states with sanding marks, holigrams and burnt edges than a toyota prius. For more information on this just do a google search for Todd Cooperider from Esoteric Detail, and look into his writeups and detail blog's on all the latest and greatest supercars that come straight off the boat to his shop.

So please further explain these misconceptions that are being posted in this thread that need to stop ?
 
Ive read every single article Mike has written

That's a lot of reading... :D


and i'm doubting this thread was made as a scare tactic to not polish cermaiclear.


Correct.



This article wasn't a scare tactic to prevent anyone from polishing a car with a Ceramiclear finish but instead to make two point, which I thought I did?

1. Be careful - It's part of the title.
Always use the least aggressive product to get the job done which is something a lot of people post and quote as do I but I actually wrote out what the saying means and explain it here,





2. Be aware - Pay attention to your Test Spot
If you're working on a factory Ceramiclear finish and Red Flags start to raise up, like I shared that Sean Kelly was experiencing, do some investigative work and make sure you're not being set-up to take the fall for some other guys botched buff job.


For both points above, re-read my original post.


:)
 
Mike,
Do you know about Ford's Tri-Coat metallic paint? Is it thicker than normal automotive paints? I am measure between 155 & 180 Microns on my Focus ST. Could it be possible that there is a thicker ceramic portion on this paint?

Here is a 2011 mustang which should have had a ceramic clear coat but that was obviously removed:
8315507989_57b9630d38_b.jpg


8311766402_d7b72bbe35_n.jpg
 
I know over in the UK the ST models come with thicker paint readingsover the base models but some colours are 3 stage paints meaning there is an extra coat of paint. I know those reading are the same as on my ST Mondeo if thats any help.
 
Mike,
Do you know about Ford's Tri-Coat metallic paint? Is it thicker than normal automotive paints? I am measure between 155 & 180 Microns on my Focus ST. Could it be possible that there is a thicker ceramic portion on this paint?

Here is a 2011 mustang which should have had a ceramic clear coat but that was obviously removed:
8315507989_57b9630d38_b.jpg


8311766402_d7b72bbe35_n.jpg

Does ceramic necessarily mean "thicker"?
 
I have a 2012 ML350. I paid extra for an option color called "Diamond White". How can I tell what kind of paint this is?
 
Well this resurrected thread is certainly interesting. Very educational. I have no experience with this Ceramiclear Paint but am at least aware of it now.

Having taken a break from custom painting the industry has made a big move to water based product. I worked with some of it when doing airbrushing. HOK was my favorite to work with and still prefer their clears. PPG also has a great reputation.

Thanks for all the great info.
 
I went to a Mercedes forum and asked my question there about the kind of paint on my "Diamond White" ML350. The answer I'll quote below is from a Mercedes sales representative whose office (I believe) is in Arkansas. Here is his response:

"The paint process on certain AMG models including Black Editions, matee paint, and the SLS are entirely different than the paint process/material used on Mercedes production cars.

That said - the clear coat used on your Diamond White" does qualify as a "ceramic clear coat" of a different type described by the "Dr". (The "Dr." refers to a paint expert I quoted to the Mercedes rep which came from one of Mike's earlier posts here on this subject).

This is straight from my collision guys - who not only are MB Certified but are also certified and highly respected nationwide on the AMG finishes as well.

Frankly, for best paint protection for your new Diamond White I personally would recommend a "polish" such as Einszett Glanz Wax (Blue top) or a Black Fire polish product.

With a correct polish on your clean/new Diamond White - then any add-on wax on top can easily be done with a spray "nano-carnuba".

With the specific Einszett product, that is a wipe-on a smooth thin coat, let dry/cure for 30 min, and then wipe off the haze with a microfiber towel".

I'm not sure he knows all that much about the products and the detail process but I have to believe he is accurate on the paint.
 
Yea, I read that before but when I went out to my car to look it had an entirely different sticker than the one shown in the photo. I looked everywhere but could not find a color code number. It is probably there someplace but I can't find it.

Does it have a grid with weight, tires, rim size, etc?
The colour code number is under the manufacturing date.
 
Does it have a grid with weight, tires, rim size, etc?
The colour code number is under the manufacturing date.

Yes, it was right where you said it would be. Since it did not have a letter in front of it I ignored it but the sticker shows a number under the manufacturing date of 799. I looked it up and sure enough, 799 is "Diamond White". Since there is no "C" in front of the number, it probably is only the semi ceramiclear, rather than the full process they use for AMG. That solves it, thanks!
 
Aren't the Menzerna polishes specifically designed with this finish in mind? I thought I remembered reading that years ago on Menzerna's webpage. Correct me if I'm wrong.
 
Aren't the Menzerna polishes specifically designed with this finish in mind? I thought I remembered reading that years ago on Menzerna's webpage. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Correct
 
Aren't the Menzerna polishes specifically designed with this finish in mind?


Yes, at least some of them but just to note they work equally well on any paint system I've worked on.


I've invited Ken to bring his car to Autogeek for a Thursday Night Live Broadcast in February, it has a Ceramiclear finish, (I checked the paint code), and is in need of a little TLC

Ceramiclear_Paint_AutogeekOnline_001.jpg


Ceramiclear_Paint_AutogeekOnline_002.jpg


Ceramiclear_Paint_AutogeekOnline_003.jpg


Ceramiclear_Paint_AutogeekOnline_004.jpg


Ceramiclear_Paint_AutogeekOnline_005.jpg



:)
 
Yes, it was supposed to be the next best thing to sliced bread and it turned out to be a horrible mistake. Here's a thread here about it..

Swirls on '08 Infiniti G37s - Self-Healing Paint ?


:xyxthumbs:



Hi Mike,

After reading this thread, I tried to find out if my new 2013 Audi Q5 3.0T had Ceramiclear or any other ceramic clear coat on it. A few posters mentioned that MB and some other German brands used it. I was really concerned about the quote from Dr. Ghodoussi about only having 0.2 mils to work with. I received a response from Audi today stating that they do not use ceramic clear coats, that’s the good news. What they did use, on my car anyway, is something called Pro Clear. They said it’s a hybrid and it’s self-healing. That’s about it. I read a few posts here about some earlier versions of self-healing clear that weren’t too encouraging ('08 Infiniti G37s). Have you ever heard of Pro Clear? Do you know if there have been any improvements made to this type of product since the first failed attempts? I certainly hope so but your comment that “it turned out to be a horrible mistake” kind of has me worried. I have searched all over the place and can’t find any info on Pro Clear. I’ve only had the car for a month and it’s too cold to do any work at home. I did not let the dealer touch it, just take the wrapping off and clean up the packing stuff on the inside. I have been to the carwash a few times just to get the big stuff off with a pressure washer and dried it off by getting on the highway for a few miles. Other than that it has not been touched. I would like to give it a full going over but not until I know exactly what I’m dealing with. Any comments, suggestions or advice from you or anyone else would be greatly appreciated. Thanks,
 
Hi Mike,

What they did use, on my car anyway, is something called Pro Clear. They said it’s a hybrid and it’s self-healing. That’s about it.

I would like to give it a full going over but not until I know exactly what I’m dealing with. Any comments, suggestions or advice from you or anyone else would be greatly appreciated. Thanks,


Apologies for just now finding your post...

Sometimes it's better to start a new thread then to tag onto something like this article, especially with such an important topic.


I don't know anything about Pro Clear. I do know the Audi Q5 I buffed out about a month ago had very hard paint that was no fun to buff. I would not recommend buying an Audi Q5 if you like to buff your own car's paint. It might be a mechanical form of perfection but the paint does not buff good or easy.

I have never buffed on any self-healing paints that impressed me and just the opposite. The characteristic that makes them self-healing means they tend to NOT like to be abraded with anything.

The only products I would recommend are either the Menzerna or Wolfgang polishes. Don't use compounds if you don't have to.


The Wolfgang Four


Here are four products that will take care of about 99.9% of any exterior paint correction product you'll ever have in your garage.


The Wolfgang Four
The_Wolfgang_Four.jpg



Forum member RFulmer coined this term, (due credit where credit is due), and since there's been a lot of questions about what each product is, what they do, the order of aggressiveness and when you use one over the other, here's some info...



Uber Compound
  • Aggressive Compound - More aggressive than Wolfgang Total Swirl Remover and Wolfgang Finishing Glaze.
  • For use with any type of polisher/buffer and can be used by hand.
  • Body Shop Safe = Can be used in a fresh paint. environment (body shop) and can be used on fresh paint, (paint just sprayed and less than 30 days old).
  • Safe for Ceramiclear paints.
  • Cafe for all clear coat paints.
  • Safe for all single stage paints.
  • For some people on some cars it can be used as a compound/polish after which the paint can be sealed with a wax or synthetic paint sealant.


Total Swirl Remover
  • Medium Cut Polish - Less aggressive than Uber Compound and more aggressive than Wolfgang Finishing Glaze.
  • For use with any type of polisher/buffer and can be used by hand.
  • Body Shop Safe = Can be used in a fresh paint. environment (body shop) and can be used on fresh paint, (paint just sprayed and less than 30 days old).
  • Safe for Ceramiclear paints.
  • Cafe for all clear coat paints.
  • Safe for all single stage paints.
  • Should be tested before using Uber Compound to see if it will remove defects to our satisfaction in keeping with the practice of using the least aggressive product to get the job done.


Finishing Glaze
  • Fine Cut Polish - Much less aggressive than Wolfgang Total Swirl Remover and of course dramatically less aggressive than Wolfgang Uber Compound.
  • For use with any type of polisher/buffer and can be used by hand.
  • Body Shop Safe = Can be used in a fresh paint. environment (body shop) and can be used on fresh paint, (paint just sprayed and less than 30 days old).
  • Safe for Ceramiclear paints.
  • Cafe for all clear coat paints.
  • Safe for all single stage paints.
  • Should be tested before using Wolfgang Total Swirl Remover to see if it will remove defects to our satisfaction in keeping with the practice of using the least aggressive product to get the job done.
  • Great "Maintenance Polish" for use removing shallow swirls that show up over time from normal wear-n-tear on daily drivers and after a person has already performed a multi-step procedure to remove serious paint defects.


Deep Gloss Paint Sealant 3.0
  • German engineered synthetic paint sealant.
  • Non-cleaning, pure synthetic - Paint must be in excellent condition as in brand new or previously polished to like new condition before use.
  • Can be applied by hand or any type of dual action polisher wit foam pads.
  • This product "seals" the paint in the say way a car wax or paint coating will seal the paint. It is water insoluble and as such like all synthetic paint sealants, car waxes and paint coatings is not body shop safe.
  • Requires 30 to 45 minutes of drying time before removal.
  • Oxygen activated. After buffing off the excess sealant the remaining protection ingredients should be allowed to cure and fully set-up for an approximate 12 hour window of time before the vehicle is put back into service where it will be exposed to water.


Synergistic Chemical Compatibility
Each product is chemically compatible and chemically beneficial when used as a system approach to take a diamond in the rough and turn it into a glistening gemstone. Using the entire line in the correct order or just a few of the product in the correct order is an example of working forward in the paint polishing process.


All Inclusive System-Approach
This group of four products with just about any tool, any pad and even by hand will produce not only show car results but do it consistently across a VERY wide spectrum of paint systems including,

  • Hard paints, soft paints and everything in-between.
  • Factory OEM paints and aftermarket repaints at your local body shop or custom paint shop.
  • Single stage and basecoat clearcoat.
Which products do you need?
Which product you'll need depend upon the condition of the paint on the car. Click to my list of paint condition categories and read through the descriptions for the different categories. Then after washing and drying your car, inspect the paint both with your sense of touch, (The Baggie Test), and visually with your eyes in bright light for swirls and scratches.

Then determine which category your car's paint fall into. Here are some general guidelines but the best way to determine which exact product you'll need to remove the defects and restore the finish on your car to your expectations can only be determined by doing a Test Spot


How To Do a Test Spot


Test Spot results showing the before and after difference...

FlexVideo005.jpg







On Autogeek.net

Wolfgang Uber Compound 3.0

Total Swirl Remover

Finishing Glaze

:xyxthumbs:
 
Apologies for just now finding your post...

Sometimes it's better to start a new thread then to tag onto something like this article, especially with such an important topic.


I don't know anything about Pro Clear. I do know the Audi Q5 I buffed out about a month ago had very hard paint that was no fun to buff. I would not recommend buying an Audi Q5 if you like to buff your own car's paint. It might be a mechanical form of perfection but the paint does not buff good or easy.

I have never buffed on any self-healing paints that impressed me and just the opposite. The characteristic that makes them self-healing means they tend to NOT like to be abraded with anything.

The only products I would recommend are either the Menzerna or Wolfgang polishes. Don't use compounds if you don't have to.


The Wolfgang Four


Here are four products that will take care of about 99.9% of any exterior paint correction product you'll ever have in your garage.


The Wolfgang Four
The_Wolfgang_Four.jpg



Forum member RFulmer coined this term, (due credit where credit is due), and since there's been a lot of questions about what each product is, what they do, the order of aggressiveness and when you use one over the other, here's some info...



Uber Compound
  • Aggressive Compound - More aggressive than Wolfgang Total Swirl Remover and Wolfgang Finishing Glaze.
  • For use with any type of polisher/buffer and can be used by hand.
  • Body Shop Safe = Can be used in a fresh paint. environment (body shop) and can be used on fresh paint, (paint just sprayed and less than 30 days old).
  • Safe for Ceramiclear paints.
  • Cafe for all clear coat paints.
  • Safe for all single stage paints.
  • For some people on some cars it can be used as a compound/polish after which the paint can be sealed with a wax or synthetic paint sealant.


Total Swirl Remover
  • Medium Cut Polish - Less aggressive than Uber Compound and more aggressive than Wolfgang Finishing Glaze.
  • For use with any type of polisher/buffer and can be used by hand.
  • Body Shop Safe = Can be used in a fresh paint. environment (body shop) and can be used on fresh paint, (paint just sprayed and less than 30 days old).
  • Safe for Ceramiclear paints.
  • Cafe for all clear coat paints.
  • Safe for all single stage paints.
  • Should be tested before using Uber Compound to see if it will remove defects to our satisfaction in keeping with the practice of using the least aggressive product to get the job done.


Finishing Glaze
  • Fine Cut Polish - Much less aggressive than Wolfgang Total Swirl Remover and of course dramatically less aggressive than Wolfgang Uber Compound.
  • For use with any type of polisher/buffer and can be used by hand.
  • Body Shop Safe = Can be used in a fresh paint. environment (body shop) and can be used on fresh paint, (paint just sprayed and less than 30 days old).
  • Safe for Ceramiclear paints.
  • Cafe for all clear coat paints.
  • Safe for all single stage paints.
  • Should be tested before using Wolfgang Total Swirl Remover to see if it will remove defects to our satisfaction in keeping with the practice of using the least aggressive product to get the job done.
  • Great "Maintenance Polish" for use removing shallow swirls that show up over time from normal wear-n-tear on daily drivers and after a person has already performed a multi-step procedure to remove serious paint defects.


Deep Gloss Paint Sealant 3.0
  • German engineered synthetic paint sealant.
  • Non-cleaning, pure synthetic - Paint must be in excellent condition as in brand new or previously polished to like new condition before use.
  • Can be applied by hand or any type of dual action polisher wit foam pads.
  • This product "seals" the paint in the say way a car wax or paint coating will seal the paint. It is water insoluble and as such like all synthetic paint sealants, car waxes and paint coatings is not body shop safe.
  • Requires 30 to 45 minutes of drying time before removal.
  • Oxygen activated. After buffing off the excess sealant the remaining protection ingredients should be allowed to cure and fully set-up for an approximate 12 hour window of time before the vehicle is put back into service where it will be exposed to water.


Synergistic Chemical Compatibility
Each product is chemically compatible and chemically beneficial when used as a system approach to take a diamond in the rough and turn it into a glistening gemstone. Using the entire line in the correct order or just a few of the product in the correct order is an example of working forward in the paint polishing process.


All Inclusive System-Approach
This group of four products with just about any tool, any pad and even by hand will produce not only show car results but do it consistently across a VERY wide spectrum of paint systems including,

  • Hard paints, soft paints and everything in-between.
  • Factory OEM paints and aftermarket repaints at your local body shop or custom paint shop.
  • Single stage and basecoat clearcoat.
Which products do you need?
Which product you'll need depend upon the condition of the paint on the car. Click to my list of paint condition categories and read through the descriptions for the different categories. Then after washing and drying your car, inspect the paint both with your sense of touch, (The Baggie Test), and visually with your eyes in bright light for swirls and scratches.

Then determine which category your car's paint fall into. Here are some general guidelines but the best way to determine which exact product you'll need to remove the defects and restore the finish on your car to your expectations can only be determined by doing a Test Spot


How To Do a Test Spot


Test Spot results showing the before and after difference...

FlexVideo005.jpg







On Autogeek.net

Wolfgang Uber Compound 3.0

Total Swirl Remover

Finishing Glaze

:xyxthumbs:

Thanks very much Mike,

Great info and advice.
 
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