coatings useless or fantastic? what do you think??

[builthatch]

I need 2 liters of coating, not some 30 to 50ml.

2 liters? that's ~200 cars covered in Opti-Coat, haha.

for what it's worth, i've used Gloss-Coat now to coat two flats, the boot on my C, and the bonnet, which is pretty good size. i am very confident that i could do my entire car, meaning all paint, hard trim, full wheels, inner barrels and glass that isn't the windshield and easily have some left in the tube.

the day before i put GC on the hood, i applied OCP. this goes a longer way than Opti-Coat. i know Kyle will twitch at the math possibilities, but that's what i find. i believe others are also coming to the conclusion that Gloss-Coat goes longer that what we are used to as well. particularly if you use a neoprene applicator. i do not know about micro suedes on neoprene blocks yet. i have the new setup from OPT to try but haven't.

They make no sense for garage queens, show cars, or for people that pamper their cars or demand the best look possible. Sealants can now get a year or more of protection. Those who apply a spray wax twice a month don't even need an LSP. Coatings are all about being the best sacrificial barrier possible. Period.

i said some things about this earlier

ultimately it depends on how you use your car, first and foremost. and how you treat it as a whole. but my take on your question is usually a definitive yes. imo the coating will help maintain the substrate and keep it from getting as damaged as easily. and the substrate is finite, so preserving that is obv terribly important. the coating tech is more durable than waxes and sealants, if not because of the chemistry, because of the sheer increase in film build.

if you get bird crap on your car and there is wax or sealant, it will be better than just having the bare clear. but fallout like that can easily defeat those LSPs and get into the clear. same with hard water deposits. with coatings, my experience is they give themselves up much less. i think the Mini Cooper hood example in my first post is a prime example of this.

in my experiences they keep your car looking cleaner for a lot longer than waxes and sealants and are just generally easier to clean.

but, sealants and waxes are traditionally easier to use and some people don't need the sort of protection the coatings give because they have a garage queen or something. i mean, i have a garage queen and i still play with coatings on it but that's because i like how much easier it is to clean and i don't have to refresh the LSP.

but after my time with this new Gloss-Coat, that stuff is almost as easy to install as Opti-Seal, which is pretty damn cool. as i said earlier, i don't have experience with any other brand's coatings but i'm sure there are easier-than-ever to install coatings coming out from other companies too that are fantastic.

-

You state that Opti-Coat is "permanent". This is not true and no longer claimed by OPT. You must have cut and pasted the old marketing material

re: OCP, it'll be there forever until you take an abrasive to it and purposely abrade until it's gone. the bond to the clear coat is permanent. no chemicals except paint stripper will remove it. it will chip off if hit hard enough but i don't know if that's because the substrate is weak or not. anyway, if that isn't considered permanent, chemistry bond explanations from Dr. G aside, i don't know what would be considered permanent. having to be media blasted off? chipped off?? would that be permanent in the eyes of non-paint/coating industry laymen like us???

for me, given the in-depth explanation Dr. G gave, i'm more comfortable with saying that the coating is permament since the bond to the clear is permanent but the marketing has changed for many reasons. if i were selling it to a customer, i'd NOT say it's permanent, i would go only as far as the company is willing to go, which now is less than permanent. either way, really, it's irrelevant. permanent or five years. the gap between waxes and sealants and at least some coatings is a large enough gap.

 

[allenk4]

For the record I never stated that you couldn't coat a car with 5 ml of OC

I have never stated that you can't achieve 2-3 microns of film build with OC

But I will continue to state that you can't do both at the same time. It is not possible and OPT will not claim it either

I have no problem with coatings, but the marketing has gone well beyond what can be proven and is exemplified by the modified warranty on OCP from "Permanent" to 5 years

 

[tdekany]

You state that Opti-Coat is "permanent". This is not true and no longer claimed by OPT. You must have cut and pasted the old marketing material

Why are you making such statements? My cut and paste comes from the Optimum site and it isn't old. Please show me where Optimum made the statement about OC not being permanent?
Warrantying it for 5 years doesn't mean the product is no longer on the car.

IF you know how to properly wash/dry/wipe your car's finish, yes you can indeed keep it mar free. So no need to polish. Of course if you do it half assed you can scratch even your windshield.

Do an experiment: Prep/seal your paint, take a picture, and take another one 6 weeks later after a wash. Take another picture. Compare. Let me know your findings.

Interesting that you claim to have the same gloss out of a sealant even after 6 months, yet OC 2.0 made the finish look worse from the get go?

Do you expect anyone to believe that? (I know you have a beef with Optimum - seems like you do a lot to discredit the company)

And if your sealant looks just as good after 6 months, why redo it? What happens? Do you think the product works for half a year and overnight it is off the paint? Because that is not how it works.

This is what you said first

I do know that the three Opti-Coat 2.0 vehicles that I have personally seen that were coated by experienced detailers did not have the highly reflective look that I like

There is nothing wrong with that, you like what you like.

(So it seems you do not have ANY personal experience with Opti Coat, yet you are pretty verbal about their quality. Interesting)

Your following statement about those very same cars says this

The finish did look fantastic, OC2.0 made it look less fantastic

So are you saying that the prepped paint did have the look that YOU like and OC 2.0 made it look worse? Did OC take away some of the shine?

And also, did each of these detailers contacted you to show you the finish prior to applying OC 2.0 and afterwards? Were these 3 detailers also as dissatisfied as you with the look OC 2.0 provided? BTW, how come these pros used 2.0?

 

[tdekany]

For the record I never stated that you couldn't coat a car with 5 ml of OC

I have never stated that you can't achieve 2-3 microns of film build with OC

But I will continue to state that you can't do both at the same time. It is not possible and OPT will not claim it either

I have no problem with coatings, but the marketing has gone well beyond what can be proven and is exemplified by the modified warranty on OCP from "Permanent" to 5 years

Man, you are all over the place. Who made the claim that all you need is 5cc on a car? If you use OC Pro, you want to use 10cc. Same with 2.0.

With GS, I applied it to this van, paint only, roof included and did as thick as I could and used 5cc.

This was my experience

You can't do that with OC PRO


PA090028.jpg by savingspaces33, on Flickr

 

[allenk4]

Why are you making such statements? My cut and paste comes from the Optimum site and it isn't old. Please show me where Optimum made the statement about OC not being permanent?
Warrantying it for 5 years doesn't mean the product is no longer on the car.

IF you know how to properly wash/dry/wipe your car's finish, yes you can indeed keep it mar free. So no need to polish. Of course if you do it half assed you can scratch even your windshield.

Do an experiment: Prep/seal your paint, take a picture, and take another one 6 weeks later after a wash. Take another picture. Compare. Let me know your findings.

Interesting that you claim to have the same gloss out of a sealant even after 6 months, yet OC 2.0 made the finish look worse from the get go?

Do you expect anyone to believe that? (I know you have a beef with Optimum - seems like you do a lot to discredit the company)

And if your sealant looks just as good after 6 months, why redo it? What happens? Do you think the product works for half a year and overnight it is off the paint? Because that is not how it works.

This is what you said first



There is nothing wrong with that, you like what you like.

(So it seems you do not have ANY personal experience with Opti Coat, yet you are pretty verbal about their quality. Interesting)

Your following statement about those very same cars says this



So are you saying that the prepped paint did have the look that YOU like and OC 2.0 made it look worse? Did OC take away some of the shine?

And also, did each of these detailers contacted you to show you the finish prior to applying OC 2.0 and afterwards? Were these 3 detailers also as dissatisfied as you with the look OC 2.0 provided? BTW, how come these pros used 2.0?

You started by saying that you couldn't think of even one reason that anyone would not choose a coating

I gave you three reasons that people choose not to go with a coating

If you are claiming that OC is impervious to scratching & marring, prove it...no one else has and it would be a huge coup for OPT. You however will need a new camera to shoot the close-ups and 50/50's

I don't hate OPT. I use OPC, ONR and have tried many of their other products. My only disagreement with them ever has been the attempt to claim both film thickness build and a few drops per panel. Each can be true separately, but not at the same time; mathematics will not allow it

Regarding the three cars. One of them was polished right before my eyes. One had OC2.0 on some panels and wax on others. The third was prepped by someone I know does good work. You can't see the difference, generally, I can't tell waxes form sealed from coated either. What is important is that there are people who can and they make their decision on what to use based on that.

You ask why these "Pros" were using OC2.0. I never stated they were "Pros", I indicates that they were experienced detailers. I know you get caught up in the , "I'm a Pro, you don't know what you are doing", I think it comes off as condescending. I have seen lots of work done by "Pros" that is well below AGO standards

 

[allenk4]

Man, you are all over the place. Who made the claim that all you need is 5cc on a car? If you use OC Pro, you want to use 10cc. Same with 2.0.

With GS, I applied it to this van, paint only, roof included and did as thick as I could and used 5cc.

This was my experience

You can't do that with OC PRO


PA090028.jpg by savingspaces33, on Flickr

The claim is made by Optimum Polymer Technologies that you prime the applicator with an X and then add a few drops per panel

20 drops per ml
20ml per syringe of OC2.0
400 drops
divided by 3 (a few)

=133 panels
minus what is used for priming

As I said, you can probably coat a panel with a few drops, but the coating will not achieve the claimed thickness of 1-2ml at this application rate

There are OC2.0 users all over this Forum who are using 5-7ml to coat their vehicle

I have no doubt that you coated that mini-van with 5cc

How thick so you believe the coating left behind is on the mini-van?

 

[swanicyouth]

I'm going to come out with a new permanent coating to protect your permanent coating. It will be a permanent sacrificial barrier to protect your permanent sacrificial barrier.

Thing is, I bet I could sell it to some peeps here.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[melF1fan]

^
Make it WOWA and it's a runaway hit!

 

[frankprozzoly]

Lol I'll support your product steve

 

[builthatch]

I'm going to come out with a new permanent coating to protect your permanent coating. It will be a permanent sacrificial barrier to protect your permanent sacrificial barrier.

Thing is, I bet I could sell it to some peeps here.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

ok, i'll buy. but first:

required - HD video of entire development i mean creation process, nuclear reactions, fission, etc. and also, HD videos of all testing to verify permanency claims!

 

[tdekany]

1 You started by saying that you couldn't think of even one reason that anyone would not choose a coating

2 I gave you three reasons that people choose not to go with a coating



3 If you are claiming that OC is impervious to scratching & marring, prove it...no one else has and it would be a huge coup for OPT. You however will need a new camera to shoot the close-ups and 50/50's

4 I don't hate OPT. I use OPC, ONR and have tried many of their other products. My only disagreement with them ever has been the attempt to claim both film thickness build and a few drops per panel. Each can be true separately, but not at the same time; mathematics will not allow it

5 Regarding the three cars. One of them was polished right before my eyes. One had OC2.0 on some panels and wax on others. The third was prepped by someone I know does good work. You can't see the difference, generally, I can't tell waxes form sealed from coated either. What is important is that there are people who can and they make their decision on what to use based on that.

6 You ask why these "Pros" were using OC2.0. I never stated they were "Pros", I indicates that they were experienced detailers. I know you get caught up in the , "I'm a Pro, you don't know what you are doing", I think it comes off as condescending. I have seen lots of work done by "Pros" that is well below AGO standards

1 - Exactly right. The amount of effort it takes to "coat" a car and the benefits that they provide is substantial. As I gave the bird poop example, that alone is worth it. Heck you can always top it with a wax.

2 - Of course you can come up with many reasons why not to coat a car, but that doesn't mean that those reasons are reasonable. But hey, no one else is using "MY" money to purchase "THEIR" LSP so it doesn't really matter.

3 - are we 2 year olds here? I said, if you know how to properly maintain the finish, you can keep it mar free. How do you keep your car swirl free? So imagine a harder ceramic clear on top of your paint that is "harder" to mar. I did say that you can even scratch glass, what is it that you are reading?

Is your paint full of swirls?

4 - I suggested to David that he changes the wording on the labels, but I guess a few drops can mean many things and I left it at that. But to be honest, for you to clutter the forum with your anti OC posts for that? Dude, you really need to move on. It appears that you never even used it personally.

5 - So now, you are changing your story again. So OC on some panels, waxes on others. That is not a good test. It should be on the same panel. Anyway. You still didn't answer any of my questions. Are you claiming, that OC made the finish look worse?

6 - Do you know me personally? You do not know anything about what I think, you are just making this up. Not sure what you are basing it on. Did you not try to bicker with me in another post when I told you that I believe that "most" so called professional detailers should not get anywhere near a car?
I admit, I am not the brightest guy on the block, but one would have to be really dumb to spend 13 years on detailing forums nearly every day and think that only pros can do good work.

** On the other hand, for you to bad mouth a product every chance you have - that you have never tried doesn't make you a very credible person in my eyes.

 

[tdekany]

Man, you are all over the place. Who made the claim that all you need is 5cc on a car? If you use OC Pro, you want to use 10cc. Same with 2.0.

With GS, I applied it to this van, paint only, roof included and did as thick as I could and used 5cc.

This was my experience

You can't do that with OC PRO


PA090028.jpg by savingspaces33, on Flickr

PB260011.jpg by savingspaces33, on Flickr

This suv took 15cc of OC PRO (paint)

 

[swanicyouth]

So I've been working on my new coating to protect the coating. I think I've come up with something:

- easy installation (designed by morons for morons)

- low maintenance (just water once a week)

- doesn't mar (but may require mowing in the summer)

.... And It's environmentally friendly and biodegradable.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[allenk4]

1 - Exactly right. The amount of effort it takes to "coat" a car and the benefits that they provide is substantial. As I gave the bird poop example, that alone is worth it. Heck you can always top it with a wax.

2 - Of course you can come up with many reasons why not to coat a car, but that doesn't mean that those reasons are reasonable. But hey, no one else is using "MY" money to purchase "THEIR" LSP so it doesn't really matter.

3 - are we 2 year olds here? I said, if you know how to properly maintain the finish, you can keep it mar free. How do you keep your car swirl free? So imagine a harder ceramic clear on top of your paint that is "harder" to mar. I did say that you can even scratch glass, what is it that you are reading?

Is your paint full of swirls?

4 - I suggested to David that he changes the wording on the labels, but I guess a few drops can mean many things and I left it at that. But to be honest, for you to clutter the forum with your anti OC posts for that? Dude, you really need to move on. It appears that you never even used it personally.

5 - So now, you are changing your story again. So OC on some panels, waxes on others. That is not a good test. It should be on the same panel. Anyway. You still didn't answer any of my questions. Are you claiming, that OC made the finish look worse?

6 - Do you know me personally? You do not know anything about what I think, you are just making this up. Not sure what you are basing it on. Did you not try to bicker with me in another post when I told you that I believe that "most" so called professional detailers should not get anywhere near a car?
I admit, I am not the brightest guy on the block, but one would have to be really dumb to spend 13 years on detailing forums nearly every day and think that only pros can do good work.

** On the other hand, for you to bad mouth a product every chance you have - that you have never tried doesn't make you a very credible person in my eyes.

I am not a coating denier

I have a coating on the roof or my SUV. It.makes sense for me in that application

What is important is actually what you posted in #2:
But hey, no one else is using "MY" money to purchase "THEIR" LSP so it doesn't really matter.

Anything is worth exactly how much someone is willing to pay for it

But the way you act as if anyone who is not using coatings is an idiot, is ridiculous

Also on you point #2 you admit that, "Of course you can come up with many reasons why not to coat a car,...", but then you claim that none of those reasons are "reasonable". That statement makes no sense and is again asserting that anyone whom is not using coatings is unreasonable

#3 I was reading your statements that coated paint eliminates the need for future polishing. Once again, i will ask you to prove this assertion in any way you choose, but please let someone other than you take the after photos

My paint does have swirls. It is black, driven daily and not garaged

#4 A few drops and asking OPT to change the label. Sounds like we agree that making the drops and thickness claims at the same time is unreasonable. It is not "bickering" to disagree in a reasonable manner using prior marketing statements or OPT as the basis

I am not a "dude" or "the dude"

Why do people say things like "Dude, you really need to move on." What place does a statement like that have here. Would you say that to someone in person, I couldn't

I have watched OC2.0 being applied and I have seen it after application. At what point am I allowed by you to have an opinion?

You commented about Wolfgang Deep Gloss Paint Sealant 3.0, have you used it, seen it at 6 weeks and 6 months. If not how, can you comment? If you can coat a panel with a "few drops" of a coating, what makes you say I can't coat an SUV with 1/2 ounce of sealant?

#5 Testing different products on different panels of the same vehicle is common place

Yes, I am indicating to you that the appearance of the painted surface looked better to me prior to application of OC2.0

#6 I only know you as you know me, through this Forum. What I know about you is based on your words here, your website and the included 3D products video. BTW, are they still the largest detail products company in the world as stated in the video on your website?


Please quote any post I have made "bad mouthing" a product. Maybe, I don't understand your definition of the slang, "bad mouthing"?

 

[Auto Concierge]

I am not a coating denier

I have a coating on the roof or my SUV. It.makes sense for me in that application

What is important is actually what you posted in #2:
But hey, no one else is using "MY" money to purchase "THEIR" LSP so it doesn't really matter.

Anything is worth exactly how much someone is willing to pay for it

But the way you act as if anyone who is not using coatings is an idiot, is ridiculous

Also on you point #2 you admit that, "Of course you can come up with many reasons why not to coat a car,...", but then you claim that none of those reasons are "reasonable". That statement makes no sense and is again asserting that anyone whom is not using coatings is unreasonable

#3 I was reading your statements that coated paint eliminates the need for future polishing. Once again, i will ask you to prove this assertion in any way you choose, but please let someone other than you take the after photos

My paint does have swirls. It is black, driven daily and not garaged

#4 A few drops and asking OPT to change the label. Sounds like we agree that making the drops and thickness claims at the same time is unreasonable. It is not "bickering" to disagree in a reasonable manner using prior marketing statements or OPT as the basis

I am not a "dude" or "the dude"

Why do people say things like "Dude, you really need to move on." What place does a statement like that have here. Would you say that to someone in person, I couldn't

I have watched OC2.0 being applied and I have seen it after application. At what point am I allowed by you to have an opinion?

You commented about Wolfgang Deep Gloss Paint Sealant 3.0, have you used it, seen it at 6 weeks and 6 months. If not how, can you comment? If you can coat a panel with a "few drops" of a coating, what makes you say I can't coat an SUV with 1/2 ounce of sealant?

#5 Testing different products on different panels of the same vehicle is common place

Yes, I am indicating to you that the appearance of the painted surface looked better to me prior to application of OC2.0

#6 I only know you as you know me, through this Forum. What I know about you is based on your words here, your website and the included 3D products video. BTW, are they still the largest detail products company in the world as stated in the video on your website?


Please quote any post I have made "bad mouthing" a product. Maybe, I don't understand your definition of the slang, "bad mouthing"?

Point #3 nails it………….. Allen now you have learned what I have known for years that unfortunately pointing out assertions that counter ramblings from Thomas is almost futile……….almost.

Thomas I mean this really………..please stop now, this is a repeat of the war with George on the .Org which got you clipped from the 3D team.

You can have opinions, we can agree to disagree but when multiple people counter your assertions and then a reply is 26 size font …………it is not helping the cause.

As Allen and I have pointed out to you we are not coating haters, I use them often when applicable and my thoughts on the other stuff is my opinion and angst with shady conduct in the trade.

As for being envious of anyone it's not happening, I am content and comfortable in my skin(Not perfect) and have all I need my anger is pointed to those who cheat or skew the truth simple as that.

Climbing back down the tall soap box once again(Hopefully the last time on this thread).

 

[tdekany]

Bobby, the only thing I'm going to reply to you about is why I lwas let go from 3d. It was simple: I was hired to sell 3d products to all who clicked on "live help" Unfortunately I had more questions asked about how to get rid of ants or spiders from cars than actual detailng. "Not sure where you get your info" You think it was due to George ? You should really get off your own soapbox because if this is any indication of your inside info, I think you just imagine things. George was a narcissistic little boy who did not like my comment about him not being able to finish down with hd speed. How that would effect a business decision that Tunch had to make is ridiculous.

 

[tdekany]

PS: first your anger does come through your posts, and that s not good. Maybe professional help would benefit you by talking to someone.
We are not performing brain surgery, or save the world- we work on cars. Simple as that. Nothing to it really, you just have to be detail oriented.

Second, you have a guy, not even a detailer who has never used Opti coat bad mouthing it any chance he gets and you are telling me to stop? Are you serious? Stop trying to be the Internet police. It makes you look ridicules. Last I heard, you not on speaking term with the other 2 top detailers in SF. I wonder why.

 

[allenk4]

PS: first your anger does come through your posts, and that s not good. Maybe professional help would benefit you by talking to someone.
We are not performing brain surgery, or save the world- we work on cars. Simple as that. Nothing to it really, you just have to be detail oriented.

Second, you have a guy, not even a detailer who has never used Opti coat bad mouthing it any chance he gets and you are telling me to stop? Are you serious? Stop trying to be the Internet police. It makes you look ridicules. Last I heard, you not on speaking term with the other 2 top detailers in SF. I wonder why.

Again, please post evidence of this "bad mouthing" of OPT


I cannot understand why someone has to have used their own hands to apply something before they can comment on either the marketing claims made for that product or what the person has seen with their own eyes

Why do you say I am, "not even a detailer"? Is there some sort of exam I need to pass to be certified? If so, please direct me to it and post a picture of your certification as well

Condescending and Jerky

Who fits the Thomas Dekany definition of a "Detailer"?

What in you opinion are the of us on the AGO Forum?

Is the difference between an NCAA athlete and a Pro athlete, that one is paid to do what they love and the other is not. If so, then I am proud to declare that I am a Professional Detailer, because I have been paid to do something I enjoy

Neither of us paints cars either, but we can both make judgments about the quality of a paint finish.

If I am not an Authorized Pro Installer of OC, am I allowed to have an opinion on how it looks or feels?

You keep asking me questions and I answer them directly.

When I ask you a question, you do not reply directly, why?

 

[Guessless]

Okey doke,
so coatings r good? Or Bad?
Sorry don't wanna interrupt you guys back & forting, it's just that I just bought three of them and wanna know if I shot myself in the foot or...

 

[FUNX650]

Okey doke,
so coatings r good? Or Bad?
Sorry don't wanna interrupt you guys back & forting, it's just that I just bought three of them and wanna know if I shot myself in the foot or...

IMHO:
This is still the most definitive statement, and description, of what constitutes a: "True Coating" (as their being utilized for vehicles' LSPs.)

I don't know what others are using as their base tech but our coating is permanent.

That isn't 2 year or 4 years,
that means we cannot get it off again.

Ok, that is going too far but, practically speaking, it is dangerous to remove.

Try and take it off and you can end up messing up the paint, such is the level of abrasion necessary. You practically need to wet sand it.

On a related note:

In any case, this may also prompt you to ask why so many coatings actually last for such a short time?

I know that this fact has prompted me to ask: Why?!?!

Bob